2. If not, what think you of the idea of using Mountain Rage as a mens to said movement?
1. Is Powerful Build enough to merit gaining the Large sized fly speed?
2. If not, what think you of the idea of using Mountain Rage as a mens to said movement?
I think it does. Powerful Build actually qualifies you for feats that require size Large or larger as a prerequisite. See the Rock Hurling feat in Races of Stone for a precedent of that. So, I don't see why it won't qualify you for the Half-Dragon wings.
2. Uh... I have no clue, as I'm not familiar with Mountain Rage.
1. No. Unless your type is actually Large, you don't get wings.
2. Uh... I have no clue, as I'm not familiar with Mountain Rage.
Mountain Rage makes you Large sized when you Rage.
As far as Powerful Build goes... I e-mailed Customer Service and asked them, and they said no. For what that's worth... It makes sense to me because Powerful Build doesn't grant any of the modifiers of being a larger size... improved natural armor, lower dex, higher str, etc. The wings from half-dragon are inherent, like those bonuses would be.
Powerful Build actually qualifies you for feats that require size Large or larger as a prerequisite.
Wrong, Powerful Build is NOT sufficient for feats that require Large size or larger as a prerequisite unless specifically called out, like in Fling Ally (Races of Stone).
Wrong, Powerful Build is NOT sufficient for feats that require Large size or larger as a prerequisite unless specifically called out, like in Fling Ally (Races of Stone).
Read the wording of Rock Hurling, and then come back and tell me that again.
Read the wording of Rock Hurling, and then come back and tell me that again.
goliaths qualify by virtue of the powerful build racial trait
Didn't you just make his point for him?
...
I direct you to page 2 of the Main D&D FAQ and give you the opportunity to reread this thread. I will await the proper retractions.
Well done, sir.
If the FAQ says otherwise, then it contradicts the primary source. FAQ got trumped.
You know, I hadn't expected to need to explain basic English to the people on this particular forum...
The Rock Hurling feat in the book plain states "by virtue of its Powerful Build". Kindly recall your basic English language and realise what this means: The Goliath qualifies not because the feat makes special dispensation for him, but simply because he has Powerful Build.
If the FAQ says otherwise, then it contradicts the primary source. FAQ got trumped.
You know, I hadn't expected to need to explain basic English to the people on this particular forum...
Not everyone on this forum has English as his mother tongue.
Not everyone on this forum has English as his mother tongue.
English is not my mother language either. I get by somehow...
I just expected better of him.
The Rock Hurling feat in the book plain states "by virtue of its Powerful Build"...The Goliath qualifies not because the feat makes special dispensation for him, but simply because he has Powerful Build.
That's correct - the feat itself allows Powerful Build to satisfy the Large sized requirement, but that doesn't supersede the more general rule that Powerful Build is not sufficient to be considered large sized, as evidenced in the FAQ.
Does the powerful build racial trait allow a character to
take advantage of feats for size Large or larger creatures,
such as Awesome Blow? Would a half-dragon goliath
qualify as Large for determining whether it has wings?
No and no. The powerful build racial trait (found in the
goliath entry in Races of Stone and the half-giant entry in
Expanded Psionics Handbook) spells out exactly when the
character is treated as one size larger than normal:
1. Whenever subjected to a size modifier or special size
modifier for an opposed check. This includes grapple checks,
bull rush attempts, and trip attempts.
2. When determining whether a creature’s special attacks
based on size can affect him. This includes improved grab and
swallow whole.
3. When determining what size of weapons the character
can use.
That’s it. The character isn’t treated as one size larger when
determining space, reach, Hide check penalty, or for the
purpose of qualifying for anything that requires size.
Some feats, prestige classes, or other game elements may
specifically allow a Medium character with powerful build to
qualify as if he were Large. Such examples are specific and
intentional exceptions to the normal rule.
Powerful Build is NOT sufficient for feats that require Large size or larger as a prerequisite unless specifically called out, like in Fling Ally (Races of Stone).
As for "primary vs secondary sources", this is a case of willfully ignoring clarifications provided to us by WotC themselves (and not through CustServ or the Sage), in order to create some kind of mechanical advantage. And by specifically mentioning the Goliath, the FAQ entry implies a publication date after the release of Races of Stone, thus the more recent ruling is in play REGARDLESS. I find it highly galling that someone could post a response to virtually the IDENTICAL QUESTION from the FAQ and not respond with the answer FROM the FAQ.
Let me know if you need the big words explained to you.
That is all.
All I will say is: Learn basic English.
That is all.
I've provided my complete understanding of Powerful Build. Feats like Rock Hurling and Fling Ally are the exceptions to the rule, not the general. I can't see any other way to argue it, since I've provided evidence that supports my interpretation whereas you merely insult my ability to read.
I've provided my complete understanding of Powerful Build. Feats like Rock Hurling and Fling Ally are the exceptions to the rule, not the general. I can't see any other way to argue it, since I've provided evidence that supports my interpretation whereas you merely insult my ability to read.
*yawns* If you cannot comprehend the very wording of the feat, then there is nothing that I can do to help you. I don't do miracles. Merely what is humanly possible.
*yawns* If you cannot comprehend the very wording of the feat, then there is nothing that I can do to help you. I don't do miracles. Merely what is humanly possible.
HA! Clearly then it is you that needs to work on their mastery of the English language - although you've already admitted to that.
Powerful Build is NOT sufficient for feats that require Large size or larger as a prerequisite unless specifically called out, like in Fling Ally (Races of Stone).
Fling Ally being a specific example, not meant to exclude other feats with similar wording like Rock Hurling.
Let us know if you need help coming down.
If you insist on doing something that the FAQ itself specifically tells you not to do (i.e., ignoring the primary source for the secondary), I cannot help you. No one can help you, for you have just become like Risner in the Stonewarden thread.
Just thought I'd clarify my stance.
Oh, and your pictures are highly amusing. I like them a lot. They are indicative of someone trying to cover himself with a lot of pixels but little substance.
Nor can you extrapolate the "general" from the "specific" because D&D is an exceptions based game.
If you insist on doing something that the FAQ itself specifically tells you not to do (i.e., ignoring the primary source for the secondary), I cannot help you. No one can help you, for you have just become like Risner in the Stonewarden thread.
Then clearly the FAQ itself is meaningless because it is secondary to the original text, yes?
Andy, the wording of Rock Hurling is a specific exception. It applies to Rock Hurling, not to everything.
I do not read it that way because it actually says "by the virtue of its powerful build". That implies that Powerful Build allows Goliaths to qualify for anything with a Large or larger prerequisite.
It is like saying "you can only enter a certain area if you are not ambidextrous" and then saying "most human beings would be eligible because they are right or left handed".
"By virtue of" can only be interpreted as "because it has", and if you take that to its logical end, it means that it is Powerful Build that qualifies the Goliath for the feat (and the Half-Giant also). However, the original prerequisites were not waived. Ergo, Powerful Build qualifies for Large or larger prerequisites (and only Large or larger prerequisites).
I do not read it that way because it actually says "by the virtue of its powerful build". That implies that Powerful Build allows Goliaths to qualify for anything with a Large or larger prerequisite.
It implies that it's poorly written. It's a specific feat. It does not get to dictate the overall rules, just specific exceptions. The feat does not govern anything except itself. So, sure, Powerful Build allows Goliaths to qualify for anything with a Large or larger prerequisite... as long as that thing is Rock Throwing. Goliaths qualify *for Rock Throwing* by virtue of their Powerful Build. It doesn't say they qualify for everything else, so they don't.
The FAQ has spoken. Don't ignore the FAQ. It's official. If you're ignoring official rulings, you might as well ignore errata, too. And then the rules themselves.
It is like saying "you can only enter a certain area if you are not ambidextrous" and then saying "most human beings would be eligible because they are right or left handed".
"By virtue of" can only be interpreted as "because it has", and if you take that to its logical end, it means that it is Powerful Build that qualifies the Goliath for the feat (and the Half-Giant also). However, the original prerequisites were not waived. Ergo, Powerful Build qualifies for Large or larger prerequisites (and only Large or larger prerequisites).
It's dangerous to apply the complexities of English to D&D rules.
It implies that it's poorly written. It's a specific feat. It does not get to dictate the overall rules, just specific exceptions. The feat does not govern anything except itself. So, sure, Powerful Build allows Goliaths to qualify for anything with a Large or larger prerequisite... as long as that thing is Rock Throwing. Goliaths qualify *for Rock Throwing* by virtue of their Powerful Build. It doesn't say they qualify for everything else, so they don't.
The FAQ has spoken. Don't ignore the FAQ. It's official. If you're ignoring official rulings, you might as well ignore errata, too. And then the rules themselves.
It's dangerous to apply the complexities of English to D&D rules.
Errata is actual changes to the game rules. It is basically saying that "we know it used to be x, but that is just borked, so we are now making it y." I have no problems with that, even if I disagree with some of the crap they throw out (Polymorph rules, for example).
FAQ is clarification of some murky topics. It is not an actual rules change. Thus, it can and should be taken with a grain of salt, particularly when it obviously contradicts the primary source itself.
Dangerous, yes. But fun :D
1. Is a no. I can live with that.
2. Is still up in the air though. I like the fluff that can be applied to the scenario IF (Berserker Strength,) Mountain Rage, and the template work together. It's not exactly an optimised build, but it does make for a neat mental image. :P
There was someone arguing about how Ascetic Monk does not allow a gestalt Monk//Sorc character from gaining AC bonuses as a Monk of their combined levels. It got very heated. Yet, what is the real bonus there? +4 AC at level 20. Seriously. Over the course of 20 levels, you gain 4 additional AC. Big deal!!!
It is the same here. A Goliath Half-Dragon is LA +4! You might as well be a Half-Celestial and gain DOUBLE your land speed in fly speed AND Good manoeuvrability, instead of arguing against a fly speed of your land speed and average manouevrability. Seriously, we are talking about +4LA. That is huge. Just let the guy have his wings already and let it go. Big deal! At level 5, the mage is already casting Fly spells!