A question about weapon selection. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

A question about weapon selection.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
miata
Jun 09, 2009 10:02:28 Greetings ladies and gentlemen, I am new to this board and just signed up here a few minutes ago to ask a question that's been bothering me.

Alright, here's the deal: I'm working on a character for a Warcraft RPG (or World of Warcraft RPG as the 2nd edition is called). It's going to be a martial build focusing on two-handed combat, and my chosen weapon is a greatsword.

Now in that system, there are a few special materials that weapons can be made out of. Right now I'm torn between Arcanite and Thorium.

Arcanite increases the critical threat range by 1 point, which stacks with other increases like the improved critical feat. It's a flat increase so said feat doesn't double this point, it's always just 1 no matter what weapon/feats you use.

Thorium increases the damage bonus from strength by 0.5, so with a two-handed weapon that means x2 instead of x1.5 damage from strength. It does however need a weapon proficiency feat to be taken to avoid incurring a -4 penalty on attacks for fighting with a Thorium weapon.

So my question is this: What to pick? A 1 point threat range increase, or a damage boost at the cost of a feat?

I have played around with some numbers, and it seems that overall, using a greatsword, the Thorium variant is much better since it seems to grant more than twice as much bonus damage than the Arcanite one in the long run. However, I might very well have made a mistake there, and there is still the issue that it would cost me a feat to use it properly.

So I'd like to hear the opinion of some more experienced optimizers. Which one would you pick?

Thank you for your effort in reading and replying to this.
#2
xakypshalorn
Jun 09, 2009 10:15:02 Oh yeah, that level of strength based damage increase can typically be huge. In terms of a greatsword, a +1 to threat range is pretty meaningless. (Though if you were considering running a scythe, having an 18-20 threat range with improved crit could be pretty scary...)

But yeah, my recommendation is to go with Thorium. Just wait to get it until you can squeeze the feat in.

Edit: Also, an important point (if that game shares alot of it's mechanics with D&D) is that there are a fair number of creatures immune to crits. Undead, constructs, elementals.... its not cool when the special property you chose to make your weapon out of is worthless against an enemy.
#3
miata
Jun 09, 2009 10:20:32 Oh don't worry about being able to squeeze it in. We are starting at 10th level, I'm going to have quite a few Warrior (Fighter) levels, and the Thorium weapon proficiency can be taken as a bonus feat. I can fit it into my build easily, I'm just wondering if getting it is worth it.
#4
xakypshalorn
Jun 09, 2009 10:30:05 It's very much worth it. There are similar abilities in dungeons and dragons 3E that are entirely based around that ability.

The more strength you get, a hallmark for warrior types, the more powerful the ability becomes. That extra critical point would give you crits 50% more often if you didn't take improved critical, 25% more often if you did. (assuming the greatsword crit matches the one in D&D)

Weigh the benefits. Threatening (or heck, even scoring if the game doesn't have a threat/confirm mechanic) 15% of the time, as opposed to 10%, (or 25% as opposed to 20% clearly the relative benefits of the material goes down if you take improved crit) OR, constantly dealing 1/3 more damage from your strength. Say you got your strength to 26. You would be dealing 16 damage per hit (before the criticals you do get, in which case your dealing an extra 8) as compared to 12 per hit.

Yeah, it's worth it.
#5
jgumbyrx
Jun 09, 2009 11:02:30 as long as you have at least a +2 str-bonus, thorium will be far superior.
#6
xakypshalorn
Jun 09, 2009 11:42:37 I'm not completely sure about that, if it's just +2 the crit bonus *might* actually be worthwhile, considering your depending alot more on the weapon damage, but yeah, at least +4 and Thorium is a clear winner.
#7
miata
Jun 09, 2009 12:19:05 Well it is a pointbuy game, so I will start with a Str of 16, push that to 18 with the stat increases from leveling, and I'm gonna grab +2 or +4 Str gloves, so I'll have either a +5 or +6 Str bonus, so Thorium sounds like a pretty good idea indeed.

Thanks so much for your input.
#8
jgumbyrx
Jun 09, 2009 12:24:17
I'm not completely sure about that, if it's just +2 the crit bonus *might* actually be worthwhile, considering your depending alot more on the weapon damage, but yeah, at least +4 and Thorium is a clear winner.

no, I did the math (well, excel did the math; I just entered the data). if arcanite actually doubled the threat range, it'd be a different story, but since it's only just "+1", the extra strength wins every time.
#9
phaedrusxy
Jun 09, 2009 12:31:20 Definitely thorium. But apply it to a bastard sword, and then take a level of Exotic Weapon Master to boost your Str damage to 2.5x. :D
#10
miata
Jun 09, 2009 12:37:26 The game uses only the classes from the Warcraft source material, so there is no Exotic Weapon Master. However, I'm gonna take some Blademaster levels. That class boosts the damage of all two-handed weapons I use by 0.5, so a greatsword is fine, and I'm still gonna get it to 2.5.
#11
xakypshalorn
Jun 09, 2009 15:15:15 Too bad you couldn't take levels in Disciple of Thyrm (SP?) as well and use a Great Axe. That would bring you up to 3x strength damage.

And thanks for the clarification JG. Math is always good, I'm just too lazy for it most of the time lol.
#12
Senevri
Jun 09, 2009 15:43:35 The answers before mine are correct.

HOWEVER, If you are STRONG in TIGER BLOOD, pick ARCANITE!

Yes, I'm feeling a bit dramatic.

5% increase in a build which automatically confirms a crit is a big deal, when there's BLOOOOD....

IN THE WATER!
...
Whoah, adrenaline rush posting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 miata Jun 09, 2009 10:02:28	Greetings ladies and gentlemen, I am new to this board and just signed up here a few minutes ago to ask a question that's been bothering me. Alright, here's the deal: I'm working on a character for a Warcraft RPG (or World of Warcraft RPG as the 2nd edition is called). It's going to be a martial build focusing on two-handed combat, and my chosen weapon is a greatsword. Now in that system, there are a few special materials that weapons can be made out of. Right now I'm torn between Arcanite and Thorium. Arcanite increases the critical threat range by 1 point, which stacks with other increases like the improved critical feat. It's a flat increase so said feat doesn't double this point, it's always just 1 no matter what weapon/feats you use. Thorium increases the damage bonus from strength by 0.5, so with a two-handed weapon that means x2 instead of x1.5 damage from strength. It does however need a weapon proficiency feat to be taken to avoid incurring a -4 penalty on attacks for fighting with a Thorium weapon. So my question is this: What to pick? A 1 point threat range increase, or a damage boost at the cost of a feat? I have played around with some numbers, and it seems that overall, using a greatsword, the Thorium variant is much better since it seems to grant more than twice as much bonus damage than the Arcanite one in the long run. However, I might very well have made a mistake there, and there is still the issue that it would cost me a feat to use it properly. So I'd like to hear the opinion of some more experienced optimizers. Which one would you pick? Thank you for your effort in reading and replying to this.
#2 xakypshalorn Jun 09, 2009 10:15:02	Oh yeah, that level of strength based damage increase can typically be huge. In terms of a greatsword, a +1 to threat range is pretty meaningless. (Though if you were considering running a scythe, having an 18-20 threat range with improved crit could be pretty scary...) But yeah, my recommendation is to go with Thorium. Just wait to get it until you can squeeze the feat in. Edit: Also, an important point (if that game shares alot of it's mechanics with D&D) is that there are a fair number of creatures immune to crits. Undead, constructs, elementals.... its not cool when the special property you chose to make your weapon out of is worthless against an enemy.
#3 miata Jun 09, 2009 10:20:32	Oh don't worry about being able to squeeze it in. We are starting at 10th level, I'm going to have quite a few Warrior (Fighter) levels, and the Thorium weapon proficiency can be taken as a bonus feat. I can fit it into my build easily, I'm just wondering if getting it is worth it.
#4 xakypshalorn Jun 09, 2009 10:30:05	It's very much worth it. There are similar abilities in dungeons and dragons 3E that are entirely based around that ability. The more strength you get, a hallmark for warrior types, the more powerful the ability becomes. That extra critical point would give you crits 50% more often if you didn't take improved critical, 25% more often if you did. (assuming the greatsword crit matches the one in D&D) Weigh the benefits. Threatening (or heck, even scoring if the game doesn't have a threat/confirm mechanic) 15% of the time, as opposed to 10%, (or 25% as opposed to 20% clearly the relative benefits of the material goes down if you take improved crit) OR, constantly dealing 1/3 more damage from your strength. Say you got your strength to 26. You would be dealing 16 damage per hit (before the criticals you do get, in which case your dealing an extra 8) as compared to 12 per hit. Yeah, it's worth it.
#5 jgumbyrx Jun 09, 2009 11:02:30	as long as you have at least a +2 str-bonus, thorium will be far superior.
#6 xakypshalorn Jun 09, 2009 11:42:37	I'm not completely sure about that, if it's just +2 the crit bonus might actually be worthwhile, considering your depending alot more on the weapon damage, but yeah, at least +4 and Thorium is a clear winner.
#7 miata Jun 09, 2009 12:19:05	Well it is a pointbuy game, so I will start with a Str of 16, push that to 18 with the stat increases from leveling, and I'm gonna grab +2 or +4 Str gloves, so I'll have either a +5 or +6 Str bonus, so Thorium sounds like a pretty good idea indeed. Thanks so much for your input.
#8 jgumbyrx Jun 09, 2009 12:24:17	I'm not completely sure about that, if it's just +2 the crit bonus might actually be worthwhile, considering your depending alot more on the weapon damage, but yeah, at least +4 and Thorium is a clear winner. no, I did the math (well, excel did the math; I just entered the data). if arcanite actually doubled the threat range, it'd be a different story, but since it's only just "+1", the extra strength wins every time.
#9 phaedrusxy Jun 09, 2009 12:31:20	Definitely thorium. But apply it to a bastard sword, and then take a level of Exotic Weapon Master to boost your Str damage to 2.5x. :D
#10 miata Jun 09, 2009 12:37:26	The game uses only the classes from the Warcraft source material, so there is no Exotic Weapon Master. However, I'm gonna take some Blademaster levels. That class boosts the damage of all two-handed weapons I use by 0.5, so a greatsword is fine, and I'm still gonna get it to 2.5.
#11 xakypshalorn Jun 09, 2009 15:15:15	Too bad you couldn't take levels in Disciple of Thyrm (SP?) as well and use a Great Axe. That would bring you up to 3x strength damage. And thanks for the clarification JG. Math is always good, I'm just too lazy for it most of the time lol.
#12 Senevri Jun 09, 2009 15:43:35	The answers before mine are correct. HOWEVER, If you are STRONG in TIGER BLOOD, pick ARCANITE! Yes, I'm feeling a bit dramatic. 5% increase in a build which automatically confirms a crit is a big deal, when there's BLOOOOD.... IN THE WATER! ... Whoah, adrenaline rush posting.