Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ghostpilot Mar 16, 2008 15:18:37	I was browsing through the Tome of Magic earlier today and I noticed the variety of Meta-feats for supernatural abilities (Empower, Enlarge, Extend, and Widen Supernatural Ability, page 72) and got to thinking, since many of the maneuvers from Tome of Battle are supernatural, couldn't you apply those Meta-Feats to maneuvers? I.e.: Extend Cloak of Deception so it lasts 2 rounds, or Empowered Searing Blade for extra damage, etc. They're general feats with easy requirements (a # of HD req and any supernatural ability), and although they are 1/day, they don't require an action to use. Surely there's a way to optimize this, isn't there?
#2 Midnight_v Mar 16, 2008 16:40:25	That is actually... very interesting. I belive they ruled that any manuever with a descriptor is supernatural also so the game is a foot I suppose.
#3 operation_shoestring Mar 16, 2008 17:41:43	.... Extended Time Stands Still? Or is that not Su? I can't remember.
#4 jameswilliamogle Mar 16, 2008 20:15:44	They aren't very efficient feats to make yourself better, really.
#5 swifthunter Mar 16, 2008 21:02:38	even still im sure there is some abuse with that, let's get to looking
#6 salla Mar 16, 2008 21:04:08	That is actually... very interesting. I belive they ruled that any manuever with a descriptor is supernatural also so the game is a foot I suppose. As far as i know, only those maneuvers that say 'This is a supernatural ability' at the end of their rules text are supernatural. I could be mistaken, of course.
#7 phelot_plaguecrafter Mar 16, 2008 22:25:14	"Martial maneuvers and stances are never spells or spell-like abilities. Unless the description of the specific maneuver or stance says otherwise, treat it as an extraordinary ability... ...If a maneuver is overtly magical or otherwise uses a supernatural power source, it is noted as a supernatural ability in its description. In this case, the maneuever obeys all the standard rules for supernatural abilities." In short, if they're supernatural, they'll be labeled as such, if not, they're extraordinary.
#8 feintmaster Mar 16, 2008 23:38:16	Wouldn't you have to take the feats for specific maneuvers? Wouldn't that end up being a serious waste of feats?
#9 Momar Mar 16, 2008 23:59:45	The metasupernatural feats don't require you to pick a specific ability. For maximize and empower I'm not finding all that much with huge variable effects, though the 9th level shadow hand maneuver wouldn't be a bad target for either. EDIT: Apparently Maximize Su doesn't actually exist.
#10 wih Mar 17, 2008 0:26:47	I'm seeing potential for an extra 1.5(3d6+20) damage per attack with Time Stands Still, even if it is once per day. Even more so if you can combine it with RKV and Anyspell for Wraithstrike...hmm These would be especially useful for NPCs/Encounters, and they're no worse than Sudden Metamagic feats, which can still be useful sometimes.
#11 razvan_4356 Mar 17, 2008 1:41:30	All I'm thinking of right now is stretching the length of the Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Blink abilities. Also, empowering strikes like Strength Draining Strike could be fun.
#12 phoenix00 Mar 17, 2008 2:37:08	I'm seeing potential for an extra 1.5(3d6+20) damage per attack with Time Stands Still, even if it is once per day. Even more so if you can combine it with RKV and Anyspell for Wraithstrike...hmm These would be especially useful for NPCs/Encounters, and they're no worse than Sudden Metamagic feats, which can still be useful sometimes. beware, beware, the advanced Rukanyr which is encased in an AMF field Base Rukanyr 7 hit dice, cr 9 Give it 21 more hit dice for a total of 28, boosts cr up 5.25 Size boost bumps cr up by 1 1 level of Unarmed Swordsage (your IL is 14+1 for a total of 15, thus you can select 8th level manuevers) 1 level of Crusader (your IL is 15.5) 4 unarmed strikes, 1 slam, 6 claws, 3 bites and 8th level manuervs --- Add another 4 HD and another size change for +2 CR and now you have 9th level manuevers Total CR is 9+5.25+1+1+1=17.25
#13 herrdoktor Mar 17, 2008 3:53:21	yeah, i also saw this interaction. it's pretty neat (not sure if it's worth the feat though) mainly the desert wind maneuvers are the supernatural ones. handily, several of them involve rolling a handful of d6s on top of a melee attack (here's looking at you empowered death mark and firesnake (9d6 instead of 6d6 ain't bad, especially when multiple opponents can get hit by them))
#14 jameswilliamogle Mar 17, 2008 6:48:13	Sudden Ability Focus could be useful; I don't see many of the others being that useful. You only have 7-10 feats on any given build; I just couldn't justify them
#15 borg285 Mar 17, 2008 9:21:31	All I'm thinking of right now is stretching the length of the Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Blink abilities. Also, empowering strikes like Strength Draining Strike could be fun. the shadow jaunt/blink is not supernatural. Strange, but true. Useful if the DM says "ni" to supernatural maneuvers.
#16 Midnight_v Mar 17, 2008 9:35:05	NO really there was this debate about this in one of the 9 swords threads and there Wotc stated that anything with a descriptor was super natural. Don't belive me? Ask custserve...
#17 jameswilliamogle Mar 17, 2008 10:17:59	Don't belive me? Ask custserve... We don't trust them here.
#18 phoenix00 Mar 17, 2008 10:22:10	NO really there was this debate about this in one of the 9 swords threads and there Wotc stated that anything with a descriptor was super natural. Don't belive me? Ask custserve... We will listen to the logic of what Customer Service gives. Problem is they often give bad logic, or flat out contradict another customer service rep, or flat out contradict the rules. Thus we don't listen to them as a blanket authority.
#19 wolfie-kun Mar 17, 2008 20:01:13	We will listen to the logic of what Customer Service gives. Problem is they often give bad logic, or flat out contradict another customer service rep, or flat out contradict the rules. Thus we don't listen to them as a blanket authority. I don't remember anywhere hearing anything about this at all. It wasn't in one of the big ToB threads on the CO boards anyway.
#20 true_shinken Mar 17, 2008 21:30:37	It is completly illogical that Shadow Jaunt/Blink are extraordinary anyway, if CustServ said so, so be it.