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A Ray Specialist Sorc...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
blackbladejimmy
Dec 24, 2008 1:00:08 I'm working on a sorcerer who specialises on ray spells, either a strongheart halfling or a desert kobold. I am looking for advice on feat, spell, and PrC selection, with a special look at the spellwarp sniper. Is it any good, is there something better, etc?

Also, I was going to try and fit in Spellthief 1 and Master Spellthief if at all possible... so, yeah...
Anything helps, so thanks in advance!
#2
natenate
Dec 24, 2008 3:59:14 Go with Desert Kobold and get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.

Don't lose any levels of spellcasting if possible. That includes multiclassing to qualify for Spellwarp Sniper, if you absolutely must take that class get Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance. You'd be better off focusing on maximizing your spellcasting ability than trying to add sneak attack dice to your ray spells. Get Split Ray (CA) and Practical Metamagic (RotD) along with Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, and that's all the focusing on rays you'll need. Pick maybe one ray spell at each spell level and not all damage, and fill out the rest of your spells known with useful stuff. Get Ray of Flame and later trade it for Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Ray of Exhaustion, one of the Orb spells, Enervation, Ray of Light, and Disintegrate and that's all you'll need. Spellcasters are best off focusing on debuffing and disabling opponents rather than dealing damage. You'll contribute a lot more by casting Color Spray or Grease than Magic Missile or Ray of Flame, Glitterdust or Web instead of Scorching Ray, etc. There are classes that are only good at dealing damage, and they're a lot better at it than spellcasters so let them do their job while you use spells to make their job easier.
#3
reis
Dec 24, 2008 10:09:40 if you lose spellcasting levels you will be frustrated when facing casters with full spellcasting levels who cast Ray Deflection

spellthief is bad
#4
feloniousela
Dec 24, 2008 11:35:06 Spellthief 1/Sorceror 4/Unseen Seer 2/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Unseen Seer +8

is a basic idea for the type of character you are asking about. Those last levels of Unseen Seer could be ditched for something like Incantatrix if you just wanna cheese up your power, but if you are staying in theme, then that's probably the best way to go.

This will let you do Master Spellthief, though you have to check with your DM as to how he thinks that feat works, even on this board there is argument about it. As written, it gives you the ability to steal spells, but not the ability to hold them and recast them, but either way you get casting in light armor and can certainly snuff out a few spells you are worried about an opponent casting.

Make sure you take the Frostbreath spell from SC and Wings of Flurry from Races of Dragon. Rapid Metamagic later on and quicken spell are also must haves, maybe even split ray down the road. Make sure you learn assay resistance so SR doesn't mess you up, a good fallback is spellwarping conjuration spells that simply allow no SR. Ray Deflection can be a jerk to you, but if you have a good Orb spell as backup then you will be ok. Practiced Spellcaster is needed to overcome Unseen Seer's ability.

The basic idea is to snipe WHILE being a lockdown controller. Wings of Flurry will let you do plenty of damage AND lock down individual opponents, while Frost Breath won't do as much damage (still something with with SA tacked on) it is only 2nd level and you can quicken it and split ray it easier to lock down multiple opponents.

Look closely at what divination spells you can pick up though Unseen Seer. Divine Insight is good if you wanna do skillmonkey stuff. Hunter's Eye gets you more SA, but costs you your swift action which could be used doing other things, and then the grave strike and vine strike spells let you Sneak attack undead and plants respectively. Golem strike is already on the wiz/sorc list.
#5
reis
Dec 24, 2008 12:08:53 ray deflection also makes you immune to ranged touch attacks which includes all orb spells
#6
feloniousela
Dec 24, 2008 13:06:15 well that's too bad......but it's really not that big of an issue. Just know a few spells for that occasion....chances are if you're running into a prebuffed wizard who already knows enough about your party to have a specific spell like Ray Deflection up....you're already in for a seriously, seriously tough fight.

On that note, Cloud of Knives is a great spell that gives you a free attack each round, if you're invisible or whatnot it's an easy way to snag some extra damage with sneak attack on or whatever. Cloud of Knives + Find the Gap + Hunter's Eye is a decent way to tack on some extra damage.

If you can catch the caster before Ray Deflection is up, it's no contest. If it's already up, you should probably try to hit with a dispel, considering the caster probably also has some other ridiculous buffs on designed specifically to go against your party's strengths.
#7
reis
Dec 24, 2008 14:30:27 yeah I would recommend trying to increase your caster level as much as possible via draconic rite of passage, ioun stone, magic tattoos, etc. Since most builds of this type lose caster levels your dispels are unlikely to work unless you can get your CL up somehow.
#8
blackbladejimmy
Dec 24, 2008 14:40:53 Thank you all for the input.

@ NateNate - I realize that direct damage isn't the ideal spellcaster role, and that isn't what I was going for, but even so, this isn't going to be a cheese-tackular optimized group, more characters based off themes than going for ultimate power. Even so, I intend to be throwing around enough debuffs to really assist, then blast a little when I have the time. Thank you for the feat and spell selection advice though.

@ Reis - I realize that spellthief overall is a sub-par to medium power level class, but I am really interested in the Master Spellthief feat to power my spells and let me last longer over the course of a day, as well as flip the enemy off as I leech their spells and use them against them.

@ FeloniousEla - Thank you very much for the basic build, I think I will tweak it a bit to suit me, but so far it looks promising.
#9
feloniousela
Dec 24, 2008 14:46:24 Just remember to get your DM's approval on Master Spellthief before using it in your final build. That's not an argument you want to have mid-game.
#10
mdsummer
Dec 25, 2008 2:02:12 You may want to use Wizard instead because it's just too difficult to meet Unseen Seer prereq w/o sufficient skillpoints.

Spellthief 1/Focused Conjurer 4-5/Unseen Seer X/Spellwarp Sniper Y should do the trick.
#11
feloniousela
Dec 25, 2008 22:23:59
You may want to use Wizard instead because it's just too difficult to meet Unseen Seer prereq w/o sufficient skillpoints.

Spellthief 1/Focused Conjurer 4-5/Unseen Seer X/Spellwarp Sniper Y should do the trick.

Except that you lose access to the two spells that REALLY make Spellwarp Sniper shine if you ban Evocation (and by being wizard instead of Sorc you lose the best Spellwarp Sniper spell....period), which is usually one of the three people ban when taking Focused Conjurer. What else would you ban? If you are going focused Conjurer you're probly hurling orb spells in which case you shouldn't bother with Spellwarp Sniper.
#12
mdsummer
Dec 25, 2008 22:46:01 Ban Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy.
Alternative, Ban Enchantment, Illusion, Abjuration
If you mind the above, a normal Wizard specialist would do as well. Get the vital low level spells off these classes through Use Magic Device/Wands.

The problem with Sorcerer/Unseen Seer is that US requires 5 types of skills as pre-req. For you to enter at the earliest opportunity means you are going to sacrifice the option of maxing out some of the key skills... I am assuming also that most people do not have the benefit of multiple good rolls and have a high Int score as a sorcerer. A Wizard would not have the same dilemna.
#13
feloniousela
Dec 26, 2008 12:11:44
Ban Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy.
Alternative, Ban Enchantment, Illusion, Abjuration
If you mind the above, a normal Wizard specialist would do as well. Get the vital low level spells off these classes through Use Magic Device/Wands.

The problem with Sorcerer/Unseen Seer is that US requires 5 types of skills as pre-req. For you to enter at the earliest opportunity means you are going to sacrifice the option of maxing out some of the key skills... I am assuming also that most people do not have the benefit of multiple good rolls and have a high Int score as a sorcerer. A Wizard would not have the same dilemna.

I agree with the skill problem, however, you're talking about banning the illusion school on a sniper/sneaky based character. Illusion also has some of the best defensive magic in the game....hard to beat Greater Mirror Image, superior invis, displacement, etc. Illusions are just plain powerful too, depending on the intelligence of the person playing the character and how the DM handles them.

Banning Abjuration is also scary as that gets rid of Dispel Magic, which is what you may need to disarm traps etc. and knock some spellcasters down a bit...I mean...if they are fully buffed, even if you don't dispel everything, a dispel magic is extremely necessary.

Necromancy I can agree on, though there are a few spells (enervation) that a ray caster would be loathe to lose.

The skill problem is a bad scene, but I think it's worth it to go sorcerer for a build that needs a lot of spells, yet also needs access to most schools for its best spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 blackbladejimmy Dec 24, 2008 1:00:08	I'm working on a sorcerer who specialises on ray spells, either a strongheart halfling or a desert kobold. I am looking for advice on feat, spell, and PrC selection, with a special look at the spellwarp sniper. Is it any good, is there something better, etc? Also, I was going to try and fit in Spellthief 1 and Master Spellthief if at all possible... so, yeah... Anything helps, so thanks in advance!
#2 natenate Dec 24, 2008 3:59:14	Go with Desert Kobold and get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Don't lose any levels of spellcasting if possible. That includes multiclassing to qualify for Spellwarp Sniper, if you absolutely must take that class get Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance. You'd be better off focusing on maximizing your spellcasting ability than trying to add sneak attack dice to your ray spells. Get Split Ray (CA) and Practical Metamagic (RotD) along with Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, and that's all the focusing on rays you'll need. Pick maybe one ray spell at each spell level and not all damage, and fill out the rest of your spells known with useful stuff. Get Ray of Flame and later trade it for Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Ray of Exhaustion, one of the Orb spells, Enervation, Ray of Light, and Disintegrate and that's all you'll need. Spellcasters are best off focusing on debuffing and disabling opponents rather than dealing damage. You'll contribute a lot more by casting Color Spray or Grease than Magic Missile or Ray of Flame, Glitterdust or Web instead of Scorching Ray, etc. There are classes that are only good at dealing damage, and they're a lot better at it than spellcasters so let them do their job while you use spells to make their job easier.
#3 reis Dec 24, 2008 10:09:40	if you lose spellcasting levels you will be frustrated when facing casters with full spellcasting levels who cast Ray Deflection spellthief is bad
#4 feloniousela Dec 24, 2008 11:35:06	Spellthief 1/Sorceror 4/Unseen Seer 2/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Unseen Seer +8 is a basic idea for the type of character you are asking about. Those last levels of Unseen Seer could be ditched for something like Incantatrix if you just wanna cheese up your power, but if you are staying in theme, then that's probably the best way to go. This will let you do Master Spellthief, though you have to check with your DM as to how he thinks that feat works, even on this board there is argument about it. As written, it gives you the ability to steal spells, but not the ability to hold them and recast them, but either way you get casting in light armor and can certainly snuff out a few spells you are worried about an opponent casting. Make sure you take the Frostbreath spell from SC and Wings of Flurry from Races of Dragon. Rapid Metamagic later on and quicken spell are also must haves, maybe even split ray down the road. Make sure you learn assay resistance so SR doesn't mess you up, a good fallback is spellwarping conjuration spells that simply allow no SR. Ray Deflection can be a jerk to you, but if you have a good Orb spell as backup then you will be ok. Practiced Spellcaster is needed to overcome Unseen Seer's ability. The basic idea is to snipe WHILE being a lockdown controller. Wings of Flurry will let you do plenty of damage AND lock down individual opponents, while Frost Breath won't do as much damage (still something with with SA tacked on) it is only 2nd level and you can quicken it and split ray it easier to lock down multiple opponents. Look closely at what divination spells you can pick up though Unseen Seer. Divine Insight is good if you wanna do skillmonkey stuff. Hunter's Eye gets you more SA, but costs you your swift action which could be used doing other things, and then the grave strike and vine strike spells let you Sneak attack undead and plants respectively. Golem strike is already on the wiz/sorc list.
#5 reis Dec 24, 2008 12:08:53	ray deflection also makes you immune to ranged touch attacks which includes all orb spells
#6 feloniousela Dec 24, 2008 13:06:15	well that's too bad......but it's really not that big of an issue. Just know a few spells for that occasion....chances are if you're running into a prebuffed wizard who already knows enough about your party to have a specific spell like Ray Deflection up....you're already in for a seriously, seriously tough fight. On that note, Cloud of Knives is a great spell that gives you a free attack each round, if you're invisible or whatnot it's an easy way to snag some extra damage with sneak attack on or whatever. Cloud of Knives + Find the Gap + Hunter's Eye is a decent way to tack on some extra damage. If you can catch the caster before Ray Deflection is up, it's no contest. If it's already up, you should probably try to hit with a dispel, considering the caster probably also has some other ridiculous buffs on designed specifically to go against your party's strengths.
#7 reis Dec 24, 2008 14:30:27	yeah I would recommend trying to increase your caster level as much as possible via draconic rite of passage, ioun stone, magic tattoos, etc. Since most builds of this type lose caster levels your dispels are unlikely to work unless you can get your CL up somehow.
#8 blackbladejimmy Dec 24, 2008 14:40:53	Thank you all for the input. @ NateNate - I realize that direct damage isn't the ideal spellcaster role, and that isn't what I was going for, but even so, this isn't going to be a cheese-tackular optimized group, more characters based off themes than going for ultimate power. Even so, I intend to be throwing around enough debuffs to really assist, then blast a little when I have the time. Thank you for the feat and spell selection advice though. @ Reis - I realize that spellthief overall is a sub-par to medium power level class, but I am really interested in the Master Spellthief feat to power my spells and let me last longer over the course of a day, as well as flip the enemy off as I leech their spells and use them against them. @ FeloniousEla - Thank you very much for the basic build, I think I will tweak it a bit to suit me, but so far it looks promising.
#9 feloniousela Dec 24, 2008 14:46:24	Just remember to get your DM's approval on Master Spellthief before using it in your final build. That's not an argument you want to have mid-game.
#10 mdsummer Dec 25, 2008 2:02:12	You may want to use Wizard instead because it's just too difficult to meet Unseen Seer prereq w/o sufficient skillpoints. Spellthief 1/Focused Conjurer 4-5/Unseen Seer X/Spellwarp Sniper Y should do the trick.
#11 feloniousela Dec 25, 2008 22:23:59	You may want to use Wizard instead because it's just too difficult to meet Unseen Seer prereq w/o sufficient skillpoints. Spellthief 1/Focused Conjurer 4-5/Unseen Seer X/Spellwarp Sniper Y should do the trick. Except that you lose access to the two spells that REALLY make Spellwarp Sniper shine if you ban Evocation (and by being wizard instead of Sorc you lose the best Spellwarp Sniper spell....period), which is usually one of the three people ban when taking Focused Conjurer. What else would you ban? If you are going focused Conjurer you're probly hurling orb spells in which case you shouldn't bother with Spellwarp Sniper.
#12 mdsummer Dec 25, 2008 22:46:01	Ban Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy. Alternative, Ban Enchantment, Illusion, Abjuration If you mind the above, a normal Wizard specialist would do as well. Get the vital low level spells off these classes through Use Magic Device/Wands. The problem with Sorcerer/Unseen Seer is that US requires 5 types of skills as pre-req. For you to enter at the earliest opportunity means you are going to sacrifice the option of maxing out some of the key skills... I am assuming also that most people do not have the benefit of multiple good rolls and have a high Int score as a sorcerer. A Wizard would not have the same dilemna.
#13 feloniousela Dec 26, 2008 12:11:44	Ban Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy. Alternative, Ban Enchantment, Illusion, Abjuration If you mind the above, a normal Wizard specialist would do as well. Get the vital low level spells off these classes through Use Magic Device/Wands. The problem with Sorcerer/Unseen Seer is that US requires 5 types of skills as pre-req. For you to enter at the earliest opportunity means you are going to sacrifice the option of maxing out some of the key skills... I am assuming also that most people do not have the benefit of multiple good rolls and have a high Int score as a sorcerer. A Wizard would not have the same dilemna. I agree with the skill problem, however, you're talking about banning the illusion school on a sniper/sneaky based character. Illusion also has some of the best defensive magic in the game....hard to beat Greater Mirror Image, superior invis, displacement, etc. Illusions are just plain powerful too, depending on the intelligence of the person playing the character and how the DM handles them. Banning Abjuration is also scary as that gets rid of Dispel Magic, which is what you may need to disarm traps etc. and knock some spellcasters down a bit...I mean...if they are fully buffed, even if you don't dispel everything, a dispel magic is extremely necessary. Necromancy I can agree on, though there are a few spells (enervation) that a ray caster would be loathe to lose. The skill problem is a bad scene, but I think it's worth it to go sorcerer for a build that needs a lot of spells, yet also needs access to most schools for its best spells.