The combo I am referencing involves Energy Ray. As I'm sure you all know, it does 1d6 (plus something extra depending on what element you pick) per PP you spend on it and the spell has no save but requires ranged touch. For the purposes of this example let's assume my character is level 8.
At level 8, my character can cast energy ray for 8 d6 of dmg that has no save. I can furthermore use over channel to use an additional 2 PP to spend on a spell at this time. I decide to use those 2 PP from over channel on the metamagic feat Split Ray. This allows me to have two 8d6 rays of energy with no save allowed to hit something with.
The reading of the feat Split Psionic Ray makes it sound like you have to choose two targets but I could have sworn I had read somewhere maybe on the forums here or something that you could actually target just the one target with both rays even though the reading of the feat sounds otherwise. If someone knows the ruling on this specific aspect of the combo I'd appreciate it. But for the purposes of this example I'm assuming I can target the one target with both rays.
So, at level 8, its legal for me to hit a target with two 8d6 rays for a total of 16d6 damage. Let's assume I chose cold or fire for the element since that does +1 dmg per d6 involved and make it a total of 16d6 +16 damage at lvl 8. Now, let's get into my anarchic initiate prestige class ability which allows me to increase the damage of my spells. My book with that class in it is on borrow at the moment so I can't read it verbatim but from what I recall as a Anarchic Initiate levels up he decreases the odds for the bad % and increases the odds for the good %. So, for the purposes of this example lets assume I rolled the +25% damage increase (not the +50 or -25 or 0).
So, in total. At level 8 I can do 16d6+16 elemental damage and increase that amount by roughly 25% per casting for a total of: 56 (average damage) + 16 + 25% = 72 + 25% = 72 + 18 = 90 total damage roughly with no save at level 8.
Is this legal? Am I doing something wrong? 90 damage at level 8 with no save just sounds quite a bit over powered but.... is it legit? From this level onward the damage output only gets dumber the further you level. For example at level 20 this can do 21 d6 (the extra d6 is from the 3rd point of over channel); with ray split 42 d6 + 42 elemental damage +25% = a grand total of : 147 (average damage) + 42 + 25% = 189 + 25% = 236 appx of elemental damage with no save. Of course elemental immunites apply but honestly how often do those come into play if you play it smart (ie, hit a red dragon with ice and not fire). And it does require a ranged touch attack but 9 times out of 10 those are easy to make especially if you use a quicken true strike just before casting.
(Note, I initially posted this in the Psionics thread but then I realized that forum has had only two people actively post there in like the last week, so I reposted this here hoping for actual activity)
Yep.
By Level 8, an Artificer is slinging all sorts of craziness.
Wizard 6
Feats
1 (Level): Bloodline of Fire
1 Human: Free Feat
1 Flaw: Searing Spell
1 Flaw: Invisible Spell
3 (Level): Free Feat
6 (Level): Arcane Thesis: Scorching Ray
Wizard 1 Scribe Scroll (or trade it in for a martial feat to improved hit or improved initative)
Wizard 5: Split Ray
Searing Spell has no pre-reqs. Ignores all fire resistance, fire immunes still take half damage.
Split Ray (Needs a metamagic feat as a pre-req before taking it). Gives you another scorching ray.
Invisible Spell (Needs a metamagic feat as a pre-req before taking it). Makes your scorching rays invisible, but more importantly lowers your spell level by 1 on scorching rays due to arcane thesis (But split ray eats that -1 for a net +0) in addition conjuration spells are completely awesome when combine with invisible spell
Metamagic Scorching Ray is a 2nd level spell=(2 Base Spell)+(2-1 Split Ray)+(0-1 Invisible Spell)+(1-1 Searing Spell)
6 Caster Level from Levels
+2 CL Arcane Thesis
+2 CL Bloodline of Fire
+1 CL Spellgifted Trait Evocation
=11 Caster Level at level 6. Enough for 3 scorching rays.
4 scorching rays (3 from caster level, 1 from split ray) that do 4d6 damage. Due to Searing Spell you ignore all fire resistance and do half damage to fire immune creatures.
At level 6 not level 8. Furthermore this uses your 2nd level spell slots, leaving your 3rd level spell slots free to do otherthings.
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For a low level build that you don't plan on gaining much higher levels, this is a very good build. I would be a focused evocation spellcaster. I would take Spontaneous Divination as my level 5 wizard feat (forcing me to take Split Ray as one of my level 1 or 3 feats). I would then take Cooperative Spell and go into Mage of the Arcane order at level 6. Must give up 3 schools of magic. That said due to spontaneous divination I can sacrifice any of my evocation spells for a divination spell at any time. Furthermore if I leave a spell slot free I can place any spell of any school into this slot as a full round action due to the spellpool. Feats are the same as above.
Wizard 5/Mage of Arcane Order 1
Assuming 18 int at level 1 and a +2 Item
1st Level Spells:2 Base+3 Evocation+2 Bonus=7 Total
2nd Level Spells:2 Base+3 Evocation+1 Bonus=6 Total
3rd Level Spells:1 Base+3 Evocation+1 Bonus=5 Total
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If you want straight damage instead of versality. Just do Wizard 6 and make your two free feats Searing Spell and Empower Spell. Now your scorching ray is a level 3 spell not a level 2 spell
Now your damage is
4*(4d6+4)*1.5=4*4*(2 to 7)*1.5 =48 to 168 average 108. This is at level 6. Plus you bypass energy resistance and still do half damage to fire immunes.
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Now to be fair to the psion/ardent. If he had 1 buff round he can be throwing out synchronicity+schism to double his damage per round. In addition he can take the magic mantle allowing him to treat powers as spells and spells as powers, if he does this a circlet of rapid casting would be a good investement allowing him to quicken a synchronicity 3 times a day for 3 energy rays per round. Then again you would be burning up your power points pretty quickly, 7 for the first schism, 1 for the schism+synchronicity, 1 for circlet of rapid casting+synchronicity, 10 for overchanneled split ray energy ray, 10 for 2nd overchanneled split ray energy ray, 10 for the 3rd overchannel split ray energy ray. 39 pp spent over two rounds (pretty much half your power points that day spent in 2 rounds).
Other good damage spells that get overlooked are
Manyjaws (combine with things that boost damage such as knowledge devotion, lady's gambit, eager weapon,weapon specialization, warmage, cold spells, etc, since each jaw is consider its own attack and thus you get 10 attacks.)
Streamers, my god this spell is awesome.
Good damage spells that aren't ignored
Wings of Flurry
Telekinesis (which psionics also get).
Also, as I stated I was posting this original post from memory since my friend has my EPH at the moment so I messed up something up top. The %s are actually -50%, 0, +50% and +100% to damage not the smaller amounts I listed. On average, those new % would add 50% total to a spell which would increase the damage of my level 8 build I described to a total of 108 average damage with no save (granted, ranged touch required but honestly that's never been a problem for anyone I've ever known making them unless your targeting something that has an obviously high touch AC).
Also, I haven't met a DM yet who would allow Flaws in a campaign. I'm just coming off the end of DMing a two year campaign myself and I know I wouldn't allow any of my players to use flaws either. They are just too over powered for my taste. Granted, if my DM would allow them though I'd still take one in a heart beat
But, in summary, the build I described is a level 8 psion doing 108 damage to a target with no save for a total cost of 10 power points and 3d8 damage to himself from over channel (easily negated from a pre-battle augmented Vigor). My psion at level 5 will have 40 power points a day and I'd have to look at my EPH to see what he'd have at level 8 but I'm guessing that 108 damage for 10 PP at level 8 is a pretty sweet deal. Especially with no save.
Thoughts? Anyone for that matter jump in.
EDIT
For the purposes of this discussion the feats I am looking at using are as follows:
Progression will be first 5 levels of Psion at campaign's start; then 6 levels of Anarchic Initiate; then resume taking Psion levels
Free Human Feat: Psicrystal Affinity
Level 1: Empowered Blood (From 3.0 Feats book, my dm is letting me use this so long as I take 5 instead of 3 damage and so long as I limited its use to only once per spell)
Level 1 Bonus Psion Feat: Psionic Meditation
Level 3: Burrowing Power Metamagic Feat (Taking this because my plan in the upper levels is to enclose myself in a force bubble (I forget the spell name) that can't be hurt except via disintegrate and dispell effects and casting spells out of it via this feat.
Level 5 Bonus Psion Feat: Overchannel
Level 6 : Split Ray
Level 9 : Resonant Magic (Again, from 3.0 feats book; DM is allowing me to treat Psionics as another type of magic and because of that all the "arcane" specific feats I can also take)
Level 12: Endowment
Level 15: Greater Endowment
Level 16 Bonus Psion Caster Feat: ???? Debating the feat that allows Psions to hold an additional Psionic Focus in their crystal here
Level 18: ???? Undecided
that being said...you might think about looking into the "dominant ideal" ardent which lets you use metapsionic feats without expending your focus and reduces the cost of augmenting or using the feats by two.
here's the site: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20...
i've been working on this build myself lately...you get less feats, but you can stack more of them on that energy ray. and if you take the force mantle, you can still take the Telekinetic Sphere that you can shoot your split, empowered, burrowed, twinned energy rays from. (nice idea btw...i might take it)
edit: i should also point out that this only works if you plan to be at Level 10 and access to Complete Psionics, otherwise, rock out that kineticist. I would also direct your attention to the Paraelemtal power feat which might add some extra debuffing effects to your blasting.
That's some pretty good analysis Phoenix but I have a question. Scorching Ray still allows a save doesn't it unlike Energy Ray for Psionics which doesn't. Right?
Couldn't you at least look it up in the SRD before posting? No it doesn't allow a save.
He also had two free feats. So he didn't need flaws at all.
Invisible Spell (Needs a metamagic feat as a pre-req before taking it). Makes your scorching rays invisible, but more importantly lowers your spell level by 1 on scorching rays due to arcane thesis (But split ray eats that -1 for a net +0) in addition conjuration spells are completely awesome when combine with invisible spell
Metamagic Scorching Ray is a 2nd level spell=(2 Base Spell)+(2-1 Split Ray)+(0-1 Invisible Spell)+(1-1 Searing Spell)
At level 6 not level 8. Furthermore this uses your 2nd level spell slots, leaving your 3rd level spell slots free to do otherthings.
....provided your GM agrees with your interpretation of Arcane Thesis. But still, it's the same damage as the psionic build for less resources.
....provided your GM agrees with your interpretation of Arcane Thesis. But still, it's the same damage as the psionic build for less resources.
Well that is the interpretation that PHB2 errata uses
Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).
Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit” section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.”
Thus individual metamagic may be negative with arcane thesis, as long as the total metamagic is +0 or higher. Thus go ahead and stack on your invisible spells, energy subsitutions, born of three thunders, lord of the uttercold, etc just as long as you stack other metamagic feats to compensate.
Thus individual metamagic may be negative with arcane thesis, as long as the total metamagic is +0 or higher. Thus go ahead and stack on your invisible spells, energy subsitutions, born of three thunders, lord of the uttercold, etc just as long as you stack other metamagic feats to compensate.
I wouldn't allow ANY metamagic feat to add a negative level adjustment to a spell, and have never played with a DM that would, either. But hey, YMMV...
Thus individual metamagic may be negative with arcane thesis, as long as the total metamagic is +0 or higher. Thus go ahead and stack on your invisible spells, energy subsitutions, born of three thunders, lord of the uttercold, etc just as long as you stack other metamagic feats to compensate.
That's the dubious interpretation. As others have said, the ruling at my table would be "ha ha ha, NO!".
Huh? The example in the first post deals 16d6+16 damage at 8th level. Where did 10d6 come from?
A level 8 fighter can deal 26-46 damage all day long! 10d6 averages 35, so it's roughly the same as that! *gasp!* 10d6 at will at 8th level!
Sorry if I'm highjacking, but how does a fighter do that much damage? Which version of dnd?
A level 8 fighter can deal 26-46 damage all day long! 10d6 averages 35, so it's roughly the same as that! *gasp!* 10d6 at will at 8th level!
Sorry if I'm highjacking, but how does a fighter do that much damage? Which version of dnd?
This is a 3.5 board. Unless otherwise stated, that's what's being discussed.
Charging is the easy way. You should be able to do considerably more than that, in fact, with Shock Trooper + Power Attack + other stuff to boost charge damage.
Doing massive damage is pretty easy in D&D for just about any class, if that's what you optimize for. 26-46 at level 8 isn't even that much.
Example: Shock Trooper + Power Attack + Spirited Charge + lance
Power Attack for 8, giving you +16 to damage. That gets multipled by 3 from charging with a lance with Spirited Charge, for +48 damage. You also get 4.5x your Strength mod. Let's just be conservative and say that your strength is a 20, for +22.5 more damage, plus the 3d8+1 (avg 16.5) from a +1 lance. Total average damage is 87. With Ride-By-Attack, you can do it every round, also, and that's at your full attack bonus thanks to Shock Trooper.
Sorry if I'm highjacking, but how does a fighter do that much damage? Which version of dnd?
Two successful hits with a +2 greatsword at strength 22 would do it. A +2 greatsword and gauntlets of orge power cost 12,350 gp together, and your wealth at 8th level is 27,000 gp. If you put both ability increases form level into strength, you need to start with an 18. You could roll or buy an 18 or play a race with +2 strength and roll or buy a 16. Half orc or wood elf both have +2 strength (dragonborn can eliminate that pesky -2 con).
All 26 through 46 damage really means is you have a good strength score and martial weapon proficiency.
But if you're having a problem with it in your campaign, just ban the combo or anarchic initiate.
Really, any melee build could hit those damage numbers without much effort... optimizing almost not required.
Phaedrus, you forgot Dungeoncrasher.
Really, any melee build could hit those damage numbers without much effort... optimizing almost not required.
i was going to say this as well. i think a pouncing twf barbarian without power attack can come close to matching it at 8th level ( maybe a stretch but not sure how much of one )
Strongheart halfling
fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3/warblade 1/master thrower 3 w/two flaws
1 Weapon Focus-Dagger/PBS/Precise Shot/TWF
2 Weapon Finesse
3 Deadeye, grace
4 Int to Dmg
5 Int to Ref, Weapon Aptitude (Blood in Water stance, various maneuvers)
6 ITWF, Q.Draw (Palm Throw Trick)
7 Evasion
8 (Two w/One Blow Trick)
(DEX+INT+STR+Blood in the Water+PBS+dagger) x 16 attacks [4 base, doubled to 8 w/palm throw, doubled again for Two w/One Blow, for a total of 8 attacks on two separate targets]
Could be more if you went Sneak Attack route and added Craven.
It specifies “any light weapon, as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse.”