Build 1: The D&D Smiteadin
Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Crusader 2/Fighter 2/Crusader +14, Human.
1: Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack
2: Improved Trip
3: Improved Bull Rush
5: Shield Charge
6: Shield Slam, Extra Granted Manuever
9: Shock Trooper
12: Leap Attack
15: Shield Specialization
18: Shield Ward
General strategy: Charge enemy using a charge manuever (Battle Leader's Charge, Warleader's Charge, Warmaster's Charge, Radiant Charge). Shield Slam and Shield Charge both activate, potencially tripping and dazing your enemy. If they get tripped, make an immediate attack again. Note that you have Shock Trooper, so you do a ton of damage this way (at level 20, it's +80 damage IIRC, which should apply to both attacks). At high levels when you have Warmaster's Charge, this probably kills the enemy. Even at lower levels it's dangerous as all heck. Keep doing this each round, charging a new enemy every time and taking them out of the fight for a couple rounds (one round due to dazing, one round to get back up when they only have a standard action left). Once per day you can Rage, boosting your to hit and the save DCs for Shield Slam (which are 10+1/2 character level + strength mod). Note that at a lot of levels you'll have two or three charge manuevers readied at all times, meaning the vast majority of the time you can charge with a manuever instead of just doing a regular charge.
If anyone attacks you or attacks a friend within range, Shield Counter them or Shield Block. The combination of Iron Guard's Glare and Shield Block gives a nearby ally +20 to AC, which should handle things quite nicely. If an ally is hurt, just smack one of your downed and dazed foes with a healing strike to bring them back up. You can heal yourself that way too... and any round in which you don't use counters, go with White Raven Tactics (when it's up of course).
Basically, charge the big threats on the battlefield, making sure to charge those that get to close to your party. If you can't charge, use healing strikes, Shield Counters, and Shield Blocks to bodyguard your party's squishy people. Both when charging and when bodyguarding, regularly use White Raven Tactics to keep your party at full speed.
Gear would be pretty straight forward tank stuff, though you'll want to go with medium armour (Mithral Full Plate, perhaps) to take advantage of Barbarian speed, or maybe a Chain Shirt and Dastanas if that's allowed. For the Shield, a nice Heavy Spiked Shield that's a Martial Discipline Weapon (Devoted Spirit) + Martial Discipline Weapon (White Raven)... not sure about other boosts, but that will give a solid +6 to hit right there when in a Devoted Spirit stance (which is likely always) and making a White Raven strike (which is every time except with the healing strikes). Your other weapon should probably be a light mace that's Undead Bane and Disruption, since undead are immune to your Shield Slams. The other option, if allowed, would be a Skillful weapon, either a Spinning Sword or Kusari Gama, thus allowing you to increase your reach (and your Iron Guard's Glare range).
Manuevers:
Show
Basic manuever load outs at a few assorted levels would be as follows, with starred manuevers ready normally (nonstarred manuevers are for utility, or because I might have use for them):
3: Leading the Attack*, Vanguard Strike*, Crusader's Strike*, Stone Bones*, Charging Minotaur*, with Iron Guard's Glare as the stance.
7: Leading the Attack*, Vanguard Strike*, Crusader's Strike*, Stone Bones*, Charging Minotaur, Battle Leader's Charge*, with Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit as stances
10: Battle Leader's Charge*, Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics*, Revitalizing Strike*, Covering Strike*, Shield Block* with Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit as stances
15: Battle Leader's Charge*, Stone Bones, White Raven Tactics*, Covering Strike, Shield Block*, Radiant Charge*, Elder Mountain Hammer, War Leader's Charge*, Shield Counter*, Rallying Strike, with Iron Guard's Glare, Thicket of Blades, and Martial Spirit as stances
20: Warmaster's Charge*, Strike of Righteous Vitality*, Ancient Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge, White Raven Tactics*, Shield Block*, Shield Counter*, Warleader's Charge* Radiant Charge, Elder Mountain Hammer, with Iron Guard's Glare, Thicket of Blades, Immortal Fortitude and Martial Spirit as stances.
3: Leading the Attack*, Vanguard Strike*, Crusader's Strike*, Stone Bones*, Charging Minotaur*, with Iron Guard's Glare as the stance.
7: Leading the Attack*, Vanguard Strike*, Crusader's Strike*, Stone Bones*, Charging Minotaur, Battle Leader's Charge*, with Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit as stances
10: Battle Leader's Charge*, Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics*, Revitalizing Strike*, Covering Strike*, Shield Block* with Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit as stances
15: Battle Leader's Charge*, Stone Bones, White Raven Tactics*, Covering Strike, Shield Block*, Radiant Charge*, Elder Mountain Hammer, War Leader's Charge*, Shield Counter*, Rallying Strike, with Iron Guard's Glare, Thicket of Blades, and Martial Spirit as stances
20: Warmaster's Charge*, Strike of Righteous Vitality*, Ancient Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge, White Raven Tactics*, Shield Block*, Shield Counter*, Warleader's Charge* Radiant Charge, Elder Mountain Hammer, with Iron Guard's Glare, Thicket of Blades, Immortal Fortitude and Martial Spirit as stances.
I have some questions, if you don't mind:
The combination of Iron Guard's Glare and Shield Block gives a nearby ally +20 to AC
How is it +20 AC? I think I'm missing something, because I'm only counting +16...
+2 (shield) +1 (specialization) + 5 (enhancement) + 4 (shield block) +~4 (IGG) = +16
Your other weapon should probably be a light mace that's Undead Bane and Disruption, since undead are immune to your Shield Slams.
Light mace? Why not a warhammer or morningstar or something like that? Is there some advantage to the weapon being Light?
I was running a gestalt minotaur dungeoncrashing BBEG in Fil's pbp game that very nearly TPK'd. All I did was point and shoot him every round. "Effective" would be an understatement. Even when he failed some saves and didn't move for a round, he did so much damage in the rounds previous that by the time the party dragged their dying out of harm's way (sort of), he had already recovered and continued on his path of destruction. I considered going the shield slam route, but that would have killed everyone (the extra AC along with extra trips and dazes would have made a big difference). I already left out leap attack for the sake of sanity.
How is it +20 AC? I think I'm missing something, because I'm only counting +16...
+2 (shield) +1 (specialization) + 5 (enhancement) + 4 (shield block) +~4 (IGG) = +16
It was a rough number. Honestly, I forget how I came up with 20! So you could be right. Still very significant.
Light mace? Why not a warhammer or morningstar or something like that? Is there some advantage to the weapon being Light?
For grapples, since you can't use your shield in them.
JaronK
Edit: Forgot to say. VERY nice builds.
But Shield Slams happen at the end of a charge. I have to wonder... if you hit someone, triggering Slam and Charge, and they get tripped but not dazed, and so you hit them again from Improved Trip... does your second attack also count as a slam and thus have a chance to daze? I think it might since it's "you may make a "shield Slam" as a Full Attack or at the end of a Charge" and it's still an end of a charge.
Meanwhile, I'm trying to find good mods for the shield beyond Valorous and Skillfull on the spikes and Bashing on the shield. Bashing is great of course, since a huge spiked heavy shield (using Strongarm Bracers to weild it) with the Bashing enchantment is collosal for purposes of damage, bringing the damage from 1d6 (for a medium heavy shield) to 4d6... not awesome, but it's a handy +7 damage for a +1 enchantment on the shield (not the spikes). But that's about all I could find.
JaronK
The extra attack from your improved trip is outside your iteratives and not part of your charge...it's more analogous to an AoO, and wouldn't get the charge bonuses (although it would get the charge penalties until your next turn).
if you want to focus so much on tripping and bull rushing, I'm sure there are weapon enhancements that affect both, although the modifiers are probably only +2 or something.
===Aelryinth
Note this is a SAW build (Shield As Weapon) and not a SAB (Sword and Board) build, per se.
Well, you can have a sword with it (though I'd recommend a bashing weapon). It would be a backup weapon. But yes, the shield is the primary focus, simply because Shield Charge and Shield Slam are the two primary reasons to use a wielded shield instead of an animated one.
The extra attack from your improved trip is outside your iteratives and not part of your charge...it's more analogous to an AoO, and wouldn't get the charge bonuses (although it would get the charge penalties until your next turn).
No, it's a turn when you charge. Power attack bonuses last until the beginning of your next turn (as do the penalties) so your power attack is still pumped up for the Improved Trip hits. Shield Slam and Shield Charge work any time the attack is made at the end of a charge, which it is (actually, it's two attacks made at the end of a charge).
Think about it... the AC penalty from charging doesn't go away until the start of your next turn too.
It's just like attacks due to pounce... where you get the attacks from doesn't matter. All that matters is that you're attacking right after charging. To me, it looks kosher. That said, the wording of Shield Slam is a little different, so that might not trigger twice.
if you want to focus so much on tripping and bull rushing, I'm sure there are weapon enhancements that affect both, although the modifiers are probably only +2 or something.
I've honestly yet to find any good ones. Most of them are one shots or something, which really don't help. So far, the best I could find for the Crusader are Valorous Martial Discipline (Devoted Spirit) Martial Discipline (White Raven) spikes on a Bashing shield, and on the Warhulk Valorous Skillfull Spikes with a Bashing Shield.
JaronK
For instance, they would not apply to AoO's, or if you triggered a second full attack action, because the Charge is very tightly restricted to the attacks that come off your movement.
The penalty, however, does apply until the beginning of your next turn.
===Aelryinth
The Charge bonuses do not stay until the beginning of your next turn...they stay only until you use up your iterative attacks and anything derived from them (like a Cleave attack). they have to actually be an unbroken part of the Charge attack. If they are not, the charge bonuses do not apply.
For instance, they would not apply to AoO's, or if you triggered a second full attack action, because the Charge is very tightly restricted to the attacks that come off your movement.
The penalty, however, does apply until the beginning of your next turn.
Do you have a rules source for the claim that they stay specifically until you use up your iterative attacks?
And for the attack from Improved Trip not being derived like a Cleave attack?
JaronK
I've been playing a SAW fighter in an arena game for a few months now. It's a game where there's a main character (in my case, a warblade), and a human fighter-only cohort with a set stats block of 16, 14, 14 arranged as you like for physical abilities, and 10, 10, 10 for mental ones. A very limited book list as well - no Dungeonscape, web enhancements, or CC, among other things =(
Anyhow, here's his feats list...I played it from 1st, and am just about to take Shield Slam and Martial Study: Shield Block at 6th, which is when the build will be at its strongest relative to other builds.
1st fighter: Shield Specialization: Heavy (+1 AC from Heavy shields) (PHB II)
1st human: Improved Shield Bash (keep shield AC during shield bash) (PHB)
1st flaw: Agile shield fighter (replaces 2-weapon fighting for shields) (PHB II)
1st char: Improved Initiative
2nd class: Shield Ward (PHB II)
3rd char: Shield Charge (Comp Warr)
4th class: Bladeproof Skin (Unearthed Arcana, DR 3/Bludg and -2 Armor Check)
With my limited options, I avoided charge optimization and instead went the heavy, heavy defense route, which is pretty fitting to the character idea of a sword and board fighter. I also pumped up ride and grabbed a warhorse so that the character gets some extra mobility and damage. 50-ft movement, 3 extra attacks, +1 on attacks, and taking cover all help this build immensely.
Since he's part of a team build, the warblade also helps to optimize him a little with Leading the Charge, combat reflexes to hit the tripped opponents, etc.
Some stuff that hasn't been listed includes the exotic Rider's Shield from Races of Stone, the shield sheath from CS (?) (holds a light weapon you can draw as a FA), and Agile Shield Fighter, which is TWF with a shield for those of use who have Dex as a dump-stat, if you have the feats to spare. The sword is pretty necessary when you're a defensive build, since you can't count on charging to deal much damage.
By the way, there are +1 enhancements for weapons that give +2 to strength checks for trip and +2 to disarm attempts in the MIC, by the way.
JaronK
Do you have a rules source for the claim that they stay specifically until you use up your iterative attacks?
And for the attack from Improved Trip not being derived like a Cleave attack?
JaronK
The way I see it is like this: Charge says you make an attack as part of a double move at the end of the move.
Pounce says you full-attack at the end of a charge, i.e. replacing the single attack. So all modifiers from charging apply to pounce.
Improved Trip says that you make an immediate extra attack after a successful trip attempt. Now the trip attempt was part of a charge, but the extra attack is not PART of the trip attempt. However, if it's not part of the trip attempt it doesn't make sense that consecutive attacks, like more iteratives, then get your charge bonuses back. So basically I'd make it depend on pounce: When you pounce, you get the bonuses. Without pounce, you don't. This arbitrary, though, and you might also decide that any attack made in conjunction with (but not as part of) the charge gets the bonuses.
However, I do think there is room for deliberation here, and it likely just boils down to DM decision.
A similar case could be made for AoOs: A Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike charger could get an AoO after someone else AoOs his charge with Hold the Line. (Or just readies against the charge.) Do charge bonuses apply? By strict interpretation of the RAW, most likely not. Logically, though?
The way I see it is like this: Charge says you make an attack as part of a double move at the end of the move.
Pounce says you full-attack at the end of a charge, i.e. replacing the single attack. So all modifiers from charging apply to pounce.
Improved Trip says that you make an immediate extra attack after a successful trip attempt. Now the trip attempt was part of a charge, but the extra attack is not PART of the trip attempt. However, if it's not part of the trip attempt it doesn't make sense that consecutive attacks, like more iteratives, then get your charge bonuses back. So basically I'd make it depend on pounce: When you pounce, you get the bonuses. Without pounce, you don't. This arbitrary, though, and you might also decide that any attack made in conjunction with (but not as part of) the charge gets the bonuses.
However, I do think there is room for deliberation here, and it likely just boils down to DM decision.
A similar case could be made for AoOs: A Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike charger could get an AoO after someone else AoOs his charge with Hold the Line. (Or just readies against the charge.) Do charge bonuses apply? By strict interpretation of the RAW, most likely not. Logically, though?
Exactly my reasoning. There's no support for extra attacks getting all the charge bonuses, except from Cleave.
Extra attacks would be more along the AoO rules, which don't benefit from Charge bonuses.
===Aelryinth
Exactly my reasoning. There's no support for extra attacks getting all the charge bonuses, except from Cleave.
Where in the rules does it say that the Improved Trip attack is not like Cleave? Is it not an extra attack that triggers after a successful attack does something special? And are you not still charging until the end of your turn?
JaronK
Improved Trip says that you make an immediate extra attack after a successful trip attempt. Now the trip attempt was part of a charge, but the extra attack is not PART of the trip attempt. However, if it's not part of the trip attempt it doesn't make sense that consecutive attacks, like more iteratives, then get your charge bonuses back. So basically I'd make it depend on pounce: When you pounce, you get the bonuses. Without pounce, you don't. This arbitrary, though, and you might also decide that any attack made in conjunction with (but not as part of) the charge gets the bonuses.
See, I don't like that because of the whole "if you're pouncing the rules are different" bit. But at least in the case of the Warhulk version, you can be both a Lion Totem and Wolf Totem Barbarian if the DM's really going to enforce something like that (as wacky as it is).
JaronK
Where in the rules does it say that the Improved Trip attack is not like Cleave? Is it not an extra attack that triggers after a successful attack does something special? And are you not still charging until the end of your turn?
JaronK
Because it specifically states in Cleave that the follow up attack gets all the bonuses of the attack that generates it...which would include Charge bonuses.
That implies that this is normally NOT the case, if the feat has to iterate it out. Nowhere in Improved Trip does it imply that the follow up attack is the same thign as a Cleave attack, now, does it?
===Aelryinth
Because it specifically states in Cleave that the follow up attack gets all the bonuses of the attack that generates it...which would include Charge bonuses.
That implies that this is normally NOT the case, if the feat has to iterate it out. Nowhere in Improved Trip does it imply that the follow up attack is the same thign as a Cleave attack, now, does it?
So, let me ask you this. If you get pounce in the build (by making him Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy), is this what you believe happens?
Bulldozer charges in Rage with 4 attacks.
Attack 1 hits, potencially dazing and tripping his opponent with all the charge bonuses.
Improved Trip attack hits, but he's not charging now so it does no extra damage and doesn't daze.
Attack 2 hits, potencially dazing the opponent because he's charging again.
Attack 3 hits a second target, failing to daze (but it could have done so) and tripping him because he's charging
Improved Trip attack hits, but he doesn't take extra damage and can't be dazed because he's not charging anymore
Attack 4 hits the second target, dazing him because he's charging.
Right? So it just switches rapidly between charging and not charging? That is, you feel, how the rule works?
And do you have any evidence for the claim that the Improved Trip attack is not an attack at the end of a charge?
JaronK
So, let me ask you this. If you get pounce in the build (by making him Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy), is this what you believe happens?
Bulldozer charges in Rage with 4 attacks.
Attack 1 hits, potencially dazing and tripping his opponent with all the charge bonuses.
Improved Trip attack hits, but he's not charging now so it does no extra damage and doesn't daze.
Attack 2 hits, potencially dazing the opponent because he's charging again.
Attack 3 hits a second target, failing to daze (but it could have done so) and tripping him because he's charging
Improved Trip attack hits, but he doesn't take extra damage and can't be dazed because he's not charging anymore
Attack 4 hits the second target, dazing him because he's charging.
Right? So it just switches rapidly between charging and not charging? That is, you feel, how the rule works?
And do you have any evidence for the claim that the Improved Trip attack is not an attack at the end of a charge?
JaronK
That was my point on the pounce thing, exactly.
Actually, it gets even crazier:
Cleave says you get an immediate extra attack at an adjacent enemy when you deal enough damage to make your enemy drop, typically, but not exclusively by taking him below 0. Now IMHO this includes tripping at the end of a DAMAGING attack. (Shield charge or the 3.0 Knockdown feat, by strictest RAW it doesn't work unless there is a condition of damage for the trip attempt.)
So now you hit someone in full charge, trip him, make your bonus attack with Improved Trip (and alledgedly no bonuses) and then CLEAVE with all bonuses against another enemy.
However, this is all not necessary, since a simple look into the SRD would have revealed this, which makes it all pretty clear:
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Sometimes I feel really stupid not having done this in the first place.
Sometimes I feel really stupid not having done this in the first place.
Wow, nice catch.
Since that line says "as if you hadn't used" it, that means it very clearly does have the charge bonuses apply. After all, if you hadn't used the shield charge attack, then that next attack would indeed be the charge attack.
So that should end any arguement... you do get the charge bonuses on the followup attack. And that of course means another chance to daze and all that extra Shock Trooper inspired damage.
JaronK
Wow, nice catch.
Since that line says "as if you hadn't used" it, that means it very clearly does have the charge bonuses apply. After all, if you hadn't used the shield charge attack, then that next attack would indeed be the charge attack.
So that should end any arguement... you do get the charge bonuses on the followup attack. And that of course means another chance to daze and all that extra Shock Trooper inspired damage.
JaronK
Exactly.
However, combining charging maneuvers with the feats can be a bit iffy due to the restrictions on strikes (ToB p43).
That was my point on the pounce thing, exactly.
Actually, it gets even crazier:
Cleave says you get an immediate extra attack at an adjacent enemy when you deal enough damage to make your enemy drop, typically, but not exclusively by taking him below 0. Now IMHO this includes tripping at the end of a DAMAGING attack. (Shield charge or the 3.0 Knockdown feat, by strictest RAW it doesn't work unless there is a condition of damage for the trip attempt.)
i think its clear that in order to trigger cleave, you need to drop your opponent from damage (only), just because your attack does some damage then you knock your opponent prone with a trip attack, does not trigger cleave by RAW