Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Fugue Sep 29, 2013 23:28:49	Ok, I've got a DM that will allow a Pun Pun character with some massive restrictions.  THe most important of which is I am allowed only 1 Extraordinary ability(that can be replaced every 2 levels), 1 Supernatural ability (replaced every 2 levels) and 1 Spell Like ability(replacable every 2 levels). I can only affect each of my stats, or another target's stats, once and never again(so I'm going to wait until epic level to design the best buff spells for this at which point the DM will probably ban my toon). My sorcerer is lvl 15 at the moment.  Yes, I purposely waited this long before dropping the bomb on my DM and taking the assume supernatural ability feat two game sessions(and one level) after meeting a sarrukh. And to make matters worse for this DM, he has hinted that at epic levels we just MIGHT be able to climb some of the lower divine ranks(ALter Reality for extreme stats here I come!)   My question is what are the best Ex, Su and Sp abilities to choose from.  I can only pick from monsters I have encountered and that list grows each session and I purposely go searching for specific targets.  Only restriction is I cannot choose anything from any Dragon since there are no dragons in his world.  I have access to plenty of abilities and I will search for the mob if a suggestion isn't on my list. I have read many Pun Pun threads, but most assume that if the character isn't outright banned he can gain any ability, but i'm working with restrictions and none of those threads talk about such restrictions since most DMs wouldn't allow a Pun Pun of any type to be played.   So what are some good abilities to choose? (give cheese if desired because my DM only allowed me to do this under these restrictions because the other players seem to have these absurd characters that in my view shouldn't exist either)
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Sep 30, 2013 9:51:27	Your game has already imploded.  Setting that aside, the pun-pun thread itself points out where its best abilities come from. That said most of the formatting was eaten in the forum redesign. Here's what it said about special abilities originally (several of these remain at the top of the shopping list): Special Abilities: According to the Monster Manual, all Special Attacks and Qualities are either Extraordinary, Spell-like, or Supernatural abilities. Manipulate Form can grant any of these. As such, Pun-Pun is assumed to have any ability that is beneficial to him or makes him more threatening as an opponent. Here is a list of abilities that he has (the list is nowhere near exhaustive): - All spells and powers as spell-like and psi-like abilities respectively, at-will. These are at an arbitrarily high caster/manifester level. This is because the caster/manifester level defaults to HD with spell-like and psi-like abilities, which Pun-Pun has a limitless amount of. - Multiple actions in each round. This is due to the Quickness ability of the Choker (Monster Manual), as well as the Dual Actions ability of the Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) and the Schism psi-like ability (Expanded Psionics Handbook). - All beneficial feats. This is gained from the Chameleon prestige class (Races of Destiny). It has an extraordinary ability to gain a feat, and those feats can qualify for other feats. - An arbitrary amount of Fast Healing by gaining the Epic feat Fast Healing (Epic Level Handbook) a large number of times. - Immunity to weapon damage from the combined abilities of the Zodar (Fiend Folio) and Snowflake Ooze (Monster Manual 3). The abilities areInvulnerability and Split respectively. - Natural Invisibility from the Invisible Stalker (Monster Manual). - Regeneration of at least 40 (the amount of regeneration the Tarrasque has). This means all damage taken by Pun-Pun (if any) is non-lethal, and then his Fast Healing makes it go away. - All Energy Immunities. - Immunity to Polymorph, Petrification, or any other form-altering attack, Energy Drain, Ability Damage/Drain, Mind-Affecting Effects, All Energy Damage, Disease, Poison, Stunning, Sleep, Paralysis, Death Effects, Disintegration, Imprisoning/Banishing effects, Divine Damage, Aging Effects. - Immunity to all arcane spells of 6th level and lower and any spell that allows for Spell Resistance. The list goes on and on. Further, any ability with the Ex, Su, or Sp descriptor found in a base class or prestige class is fair game with Manipulate Form. If you can think of any combination of abilities possible within the rules, Pun-Pun can do it.
#3 Maat_Mons Sep 30, 2013 10:42:59	This seems closer to illithid savant (Savage Species, p77) cheese than traditional manipulate form cheese.  Of course, since you don't need to eat something's brain, you have more options than illithid savant.   The tarrasque's regeneration ability seems like your best choice for extraordinary ability.  It only allows you to be killed by wish or miracle.   The reflective hide ability of monster of legend (Monster Manual II, p213) is supernatural and gives you continuous spell turning.  That renders you immune to all targeted spells, which should include the uses of wish and miracle that get past the tarrasque's regeneration.
#4 Fugue Sep 30, 2013 12:10:05	Maat_Mons wrote:
#5 Maat_Mons Sep 30, 2013 14:19:47	Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio, p33) has a supernatural ability called dual actions that gives you two rounds worth of actions every round.  It's CR 19 though, so you might want to stick with the choker's quickness until you're higher level.   Dire tortoise (Sandstorm, p151) has an extraordinary ability called lightning strike that always gives you a surprise round.   A solar (and probably other things) has wish as a spell-like ability 1/day.  Spell-like abilities don't have an xp cost, so you can use the create a magic item function of the spell to get whatever you want.
#6 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 01, 2013 0:30:59	If online articles are good, the Usunag has its "gaseous" ability that gives a nice little packet of immunities (because it's basically an extraordinary ability acting like it's a subtype).  I was originally looking at the silthilar from Lords of Madness, but its abilities don't actually give the benefits of the swarm subtype, just a way to combine it with a coalesced form.  However, the Swarm-Shifter template from Libris Mortis does give immunity to effects that affect a specific number of creatures with its extraordinary hive mind ability (which ironically doesn't bestow the normal abilities of a hive mind), so that's an interesting choice as well if you can hunt down a swarm-shifter. Of course, it's hard for anything to stack up against action abuse in this sort of case, so the chronotyryn, choker, and so forth are still likely to dominate as choices, though the ghost's supernatural rejuvenation ability is good as insurance against the disastrously unexpected (conveniently. you're already at 15th level).