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A strange optimization case

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
DarkChipmunk
Jul 12, 2008 13:17:28 Greetings, CharOp! Due to strange occurrences in the Eberron game in which I take part, my character has been permanently transformed into a Nymph, currently with no class levels. Furthermore, she is unable to wear any sort of magic item, though she may make use of held items and consumables as long as they aren't required to be worn. However, in exchange the DM seems to be giving me the benefits of Vow of Poverty without the bonus feats to balance it out, using my ECL as the level for the table. Of course, I want to try optimizing this character.

My party includes a Melee Tank (Very large, high hp, tons of damage, dungeoncrasher), and a Swift Hunter straight off the CharOp board. Both characters are very well optimized to their role. My own character, previous to the change, was a God-role Conjuration specialist Wizard who used spells to set up the other two in advantageous situations, or to debuff the enemy so badly it couldn't fight back.

Observations: My spellcasting is weak and there isn't much I can do about that. Level 7 Druid casting at level 13 is nothing to write home about. The feat Lost Tradition may be viable (it is from a 3rd party source, but my DM is rather liberal), to base my casting on Charisma and make the character more dependent on her best stat.

Charisma has the potential to be through the roof. With a base 18, 1 ability point for my hit dice, the effect of a +5 book I'd acquired earlier, the +8 racial modifier, and the +4 from Poverty, I'm looking at a sweet 36 (+13) Charisma, giving me massive AC and Saves. This character is amazing on defense... but Hit Points are going to be in short supply, no matter what I do. I'm going to do my best to stay out of melee, though if that becomes unavoidable, I always have my DR to soften the blow.

I get 6+Int Mod skill points per level, and due to having been a Wizard prior to the change, I also have a rather high score here. Nymph 'class skills' are a mixed bag, and my max ranks are depressing, but it seems I can fill the roles of scout/stealth and Face rather well.

Two great assets that can't be ignored are Blinding Beauty and Stunning Glance. Beauty is... situational at best, but when it works it seems like it will be quite potent. Glance is the All-Star here. Stunning someone for 2d4 rounds on a failed DC 26 Fort save at will is very close to a save-or-die in my party.

-----

Feats: My choices for feats seem clear to me. Lost Tradition (Apply Charisma instead of Wisdom to druid spellcasting), Eschew Materials (I can't wear a component pouch, though I can carry a holy symbol), and Leadership (as I need to keep this feat for story reasons, and because having a cohort is awesome). Traits and Flaws are allowed, two total selected from them collectively, and Noncombatant seems a no-brainer to pull an extra feat.

Role: What is my purpose in the party, now? Am I a pretty face with no real combat viability? Can my limited spell selection still be useful in playing God, buffing my allies and hindering my enemies, although to a lesser extent than before?

Future: Normally a horrible choice, I think my best bet is the Druid variant from the Unearthed Arcana that trades away wild shape for Monk AC, Monk fast movement, Track, favored enemy, and swift tracker. More AC is always good to avoid any and all attempts at removing my squishy hit points. The ability to Track is redundant in the group, but I can always aid another. Wild Shape will be useless to me for this character, after all. The game plans to go into epic, so I've got a lot of room to try things out. This is a case where, after a level or three of Druid, I should prestige as quickly as possible, but I've no idea what to.

Sources: All WotC sources are available, including from other settings.

This is probably one of the strangest things I've had the opportunity to optimize, and it's hard to find a good place to start, combat-role-wise. I look forward to hearing the responses to this (and please, no 'quit the game, it's impossible to make this work'. The DM isn't being an arse, I'm agreeing to this change.)
#2
akal-saris
Jul 12, 2008 14:13:14 With all 3.5 being available, here's an excellent web enhancement to get you started =)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a

The real gem is Beauty's Bounty - it's Toughness, where your charisma determines the bonus HP, so 13 HP/level for you (plus con after 1st)

Ability Focus: Stunning Glance seems like another solid choice, though the DC is already pretty high. Practiced Caster: Druid is another good choice if the PrC's you choose won't improve your CL.

Try and acquire some wild animals to follow you around - you've got the best Wild Empathy in the game, you sexy thing!

Future: since you cast as a 7th level druid and have wild empathy, I'd go straight for a PrC that requires those two things.

Role: Serpent's Swiftness lady? I don't know...I'd say your role is pure support really - cast buff/BC spells and try not to get hit.

Oh, and Eschew Materials is a pretty weak feat - talk with the DM and see if material components can bypass your semi-Vow. You're not getting the full benefits of VoP - I don't see why you should have the full drawbacks of it either.
#3
DarkChipmunk
Jul 12, 2008 15:04:41 I don't see how you're reading Beauty's Bounty. It seems to me that it would grant me 13 hp once, and then auto-update if my Charisma increased. It doesn't add to each level, sadly.

I'm having a lot of trouble finding prestige classes as well. It's very hard to find a druidish prc that doesn't require wild shape.
#4
surreal
Jul 13, 2008 1:48:32 Grab a couple Marshal levels so you can use your Cha bonus for various other things. Maybe consider Incarnate since your essentia cap is determined by level (unfortunately you won't have much essentia to begin with, but maybe see if your DM will give you a couple bonus essentia points since you're stuck with such a massive LA, or take the bonus essentia feat).

Look up the wild cohort feat.

Have you seen this before? http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294
Scroll down to "Powerful Monsters As PCs" and look up their conversion rules. It's a pretty good system and in your case especially would help out a lot.
#5
Dictum_Mortuum
Jul 13, 2008 2:37:05 Get a polymorph any object to get yourself back to human form :P?
Is that an option?
#6
DarkChipmunk
Jul 13, 2008 3:19:01 My DM has okayed the use of those variant rules Surreal linked. Woot! A level 8 Nymph with Druid 7 casting and some nice features. I don't know if I like the idea of Marshal, though, as it would lower my spellcasting a bit more. Now that the spellcasting seems viable, I'm loathe to lose more of it.
#7
surreal
Jul 13, 2008 17:28:41 Whoa, your DM let you get away with a level 8 nymph? I would have at least made it level 9 considering the casting, stunning glance, and unearthly grace. In any event, don't bother with the Marshal now.

As another suggestion, ask if you can switch your druid casting to be like the Spirit Shaman's, then progress with actual SS levels or whatever PrC suits you. I think it's a better fit thematically. Or for something creepy, go into Walker in the Waste (Sandstorm).
#8
DarkChipmunk
Jul 13, 2008 19:54:23 I know! It was pretty awesome. I would have been happy with level 9. As it is, I've asked fro enough customization from the DM. I don't wanna push my luck *too* far. Druid 1 with the Wis-to-AC variant seems likely. I'll dig around for a PrC that feels flavorful. Might even try something from a 3rd party source if I can swing it. I've gotten my hands on a book that is actually entirely about fey. There's bound to be something I can do that fits theme *and* is useful and reasonably optimised *and* won't break the game in half. :P
#9
carnivore
Jul 13, 2008 20:31:36 why not try this:

8 nymph/ Marshal 1/ Sorceror 2/ Harper Paragon 2/ Mystic Theurge 7

14th lvl Druid spells with (18th lvl casting(Practiced Caster)
11th lvl Sorceror Spells with (15th lvl casting(Practiced Caster)

minor Aura(motivate Charisma) = Cha x2 for Cha Checks and Cha Skills

great AC and saves.... use Reserve feats to conserve Spell Slots....

lots of fun

:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DarkChipmunk Jul 12, 2008 13:17:28	Greetings, CharOp! Due to strange occurrences in the Eberron game in which I take part, my character has been permanently transformed into a Nymph, currently with no class levels. Furthermore, she is unable to wear any sort of magic item, though she may make use of held items and consumables as long as they aren't required to be worn. However, in exchange the DM seems to be giving me the benefits of Vow of Poverty without the bonus feats to balance it out, using my ECL as the level for the table. Of course, I want to try optimizing this character. My party includes a Melee Tank (Very large, high hp, tons of damage, dungeoncrasher), and a Swift Hunter straight off the CharOp board. Both characters are very well optimized to their role. My own character, previous to the change, was a God-role Conjuration specialist Wizard who used spells to set up the other two in advantageous situations, or to debuff the enemy so badly it couldn't fight back. Observations: My spellcasting is weak and there isn't much I can do about that. Level 7 Druid casting at level 13 is nothing to write home about. The feat Lost Tradition may be viable (it is from a 3rd party source, but my DM is rather liberal), to base my casting on Charisma and make the character more dependent on her best stat. Charisma has the potential to be through the roof. With a base 18, 1 ability point for my hit dice, the effect of a +5 book I'd acquired earlier, the +8 racial modifier, and the +4 from Poverty, I'm looking at a sweet 36 (+13) Charisma, giving me massive AC and Saves. This character is amazing on defense... but Hit Points are going to be in short supply, no matter what I do. I'm going to do my best to stay out of melee, though if that becomes unavoidable, I always have my DR to soften the blow. I get 6+Int Mod skill points per level, and due to having been a Wizard prior to the change, I also have a rather high score here. Nymph 'class skills' are a mixed bag, and my max ranks are depressing, but it seems I can fill the roles of scout/stealth and Face rather well. Two great assets that can't be ignored are Blinding Beauty and Stunning Glance. Beauty is... situational at best, but when it works it seems like it will be quite potent. Glance is the All-Star here. Stunning someone for 2d4 rounds on a failed DC 26 Fort save at will is very close to a save-or-die in my party. ----- Feats: My choices for feats seem clear to me. Lost Tradition (Apply Charisma instead of Wisdom to druid spellcasting), Eschew Materials (I can't wear a component pouch, though I can carry a holy symbol), and Leadership (as I need to keep this feat for story reasons, and because having a cohort is awesome). Traits and Flaws are allowed, two total selected from them collectively, and Noncombatant seems a no-brainer to pull an extra feat. Role: What is my purpose in the party, now? Am I a pretty face with no real combat viability? Can my limited spell selection still be useful in playing God, buffing my allies and hindering my enemies, although to a lesser extent than before? Future: Normally a horrible choice, I think my best bet is the Druid variant from the Unearthed Arcana that trades away wild shape for Monk AC, Monk fast movement, Track, favored enemy, and swift tracker. More AC is always good to avoid any and all attempts at removing my squishy hit points. The ability to Track is redundant in the group, but I can always aid another. Wild Shape will be useless to me for this character, after all. The game plans to go into epic, so I've got a lot of room to try things out. This is a case where, after a level or three of Druid, I should prestige as quickly as possible, but I've no idea what to. Sources: All WotC sources are available, including from other settings. This is probably one of the strangest things I've had the opportunity to optimize, and it's hard to find a good place to start, combat-role-wise. I look forward to hearing the responses to this (and please, no 'quit the game, it's impossible to make this work'. The DM isn't being an arse, I'm agreeing to this change.)
#2 akal-saris Jul 12, 2008 14:13:14	With all 3.5 being available, here's an excellent web enhancement to get you started =) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a The real gem is Beauty's Bounty - it's Toughness, where your charisma determines the bonus HP, so 13 HP/level for you (plus con after 1st) Ability Focus: Stunning Glance seems like another solid choice, though the DC is already pretty high. Practiced Caster: Druid is another good choice if the PrC's you choose won't improve your CL. Try and acquire some wild animals to follow you around - you've got the best Wild Empathy in the game, you sexy thing! Future: since you cast as a 7th level druid and have wild empathy, I'd go straight for a PrC that requires those two things. Role: Serpent's Swiftness lady? I don't know...I'd say your role is pure support really - cast buff/BC spells and try not to get hit. Oh, and Eschew Materials is a pretty weak feat - talk with the DM and see if material components can bypass your semi-Vow. You're not getting the full benefits of VoP - I don't see why you should have the full drawbacks of it either.
#3 DarkChipmunk Jul 12, 2008 15:04:41	I don't see how you're reading Beauty's Bounty. It seems to me that it would grant me 13 hp once, and then auto-update if my Charisma increased. It doesn't add to each level, sadly. I'm having a lot of trouble finding prestige classes as well. It's very hard to find a druidish prc that doesn't require wild shape.
#4 surreal Jul 13, 2008 1:48:32	Grab a couple Marshal levels so you can use your Cha bonus for various other things. Maybe consider Incarnate since your essentia cap is determined by level (unfortunately you won't have much essentia to begin with, but maybe see if your DM will give you a couple bonus essentia points since you're stuck with such a massive LA, or take the bonus essentia feat). Look up the wild cohort feat. Have you seen this before? http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294 Scroll down to "Powerful Monsters As PCs" and look up their conversion rules. It's a pretty good system and in your case especially would help out a lot.
#5 Dictum_Mortuum Jul 13, 2008 2:37:05	Get a polymorph any object to get yourself back to human form :P? Is that an option?
#6 DarkChipmunk Jul 13, 2008 3:19:01	My DM has okayed the use of those variant rules Surreal linked. Woot! A level 8 Nymph with Druid 7 casting and some nice features. I don't know if I like the idea of Marshal, though, as it would lower my spellcasting a bit more. Now that the spellcasting seems viable, I'm loathe to lose more of it.
#7 surreal Jul 13, 2008 17:28:41	Whoa, your DM let you get away with a level 8 nymph? I would have at least made it level 9 considering the casting, stunning glance, and unearthly grace. In any event, don't bother with the Marshal now. As another suggestion, ask if you can switch your druid casting to be like the Spirit Shaman's, then progress with actual SS levels or whatever PrC suits you. I think it's a better fit thematically. Or for something creepy, go into Walker in the Waste (Sandstorm).
#8 DarkChipmunk Jul 13, 2008 19:54:23	I know! It was pretty awesome. I would have been happy with level 9. As it is, I've asked fro enough customization from the DM. I don't wanna push my luck too far. Druid 1 with the Wis-to-AC variant seems likely. I'll dig around for a PrC that feels flavorful. Might even try something from a 3rd party source if I can swing it. I've gotten my hands on a book that is actually entirely about fey. There's bound to be something I can do that fits theme and is useful and reasonably optimised and won't break the game in half. :P
#9 carnivore Jul 13, 2008 20:31:36	why not try this: 8 nymph/ Marshal 1/ Sorceror 2/ Harper Paragon 2/ Mystic Theurge 7 14th lvl Druid spells with (18th lvl casting(Practiced Caster) 11th lvl Sorceror Spells with (15th lvl casting(Practiced Caster) minor Aura(motivate Charisma) = Cha x2 for Cha Checks and Cha Skills great AC and saves.... use Reserve feats to conserve Spell Slots.... lots of fun :D