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Able Learner Over Powered?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
seeking_knight_of_graves
Oct 21, 2008 18:53:00 Dear wise people of the char op boards. I joined a D&D campaign where I am playing a 1st level human rogue. All the other players are 1st level too. When we made our characters, 32 point buy, I got a feeling that this is going to be an odd game. Now I know everyone plays what they feel is right for themselves and I have nothing against that. But the DM managed to convince the other players to pick some un optimezed things.

For example the wizard (Half-Elf) and the druid (Elf) picked combat casting for their starting feats. Our fighter (dwarf) picked up an 8 in cha after racial. I think he got like some odd other stats I do not remember. When it came to me I picked human rogue. I said it is the most optimzed race in Core because of the extra feat and skill points. The DM looked at me weird and said halfing was most optimzed for a rogue.

Well I made out my stats, 8 str, 15 dex, 15 con, 16 int, 10 wis, 14 cha. So it all seemed ok. When it came to feats I asked the DM if I can take able learner from RoD. He looked over the feat and said no. It was too overpowered. Stunned I asked him why, he told me that being able to take cross class skills for 1 point a rank instead of 2 was over powered. Now it is a Core only game but the DM is willing to look at stuff outside of core. So I took iron will and dodge.

I am not wanting to seem like a whiner but it does strike me as odd to say Able Learner is over powered. All in all I would like to hear how Char Op boards feel about the Able Learner decision. Also I would love some help for my character. I am thinking of going rogue 1, ranger 2, barbarian 2, fighter 2, then (hopefully), hexblade 3, swashbuckler 3, 3 more of rogue and maybe 4 of either ninja or warblade (depending on DM. if he does not allow the others then rogue 14, ranger 2, barbarian 2, fighter 2. Thank you all.
#2
deathlessjuan
Oct 21, 2008 18:57:47 Did the DM realise that the cross class skill ranks were still capped at 1/2 value? If not, that might have thrown him.

The optimizer in me is appalled but the sneaky DM within is chuckling very sadistically. Is he a DM that enforces multiclass penalties? If so, I can understand the veto.
#3
muertog
Oct 21, 2008 19:04:09 Um, what are you -trying- to do with your character? I take it is some sort of front-line fighter, with all the full BAB classes.

Going from that to rogue 14 is a big jump.

Additionally, what is the base race you are using? You are going to hit some pretty miserable XP penalties with the build as-is.
#4
pithica
Oct 21, 2008 20:15:22 If he keeps them all at 2 and only takes level 3 in any of them except for his highest level one after he's done taking new base classes, he won't have an xp penalty as a human. I once built a frontline Glass Cannon/BSF like that for a campaign a friend was running in which all PRC's were disallowed (but pretty much everything else was okay, it was odd). You just have to go through each class (except possibly your 'main' class) and take levels 1 and 2, then move to the next until you are done, then take level 3 in the two or three you want the 3rd level in, and finish off your 'main' class if you haven't already. None of your 'lower' (I.E. non-favored) classes are ever more than 1 level apart that way, and therefore you don't take an XP penalty.

I agree with Deathless, he probably didn't understand how the feat worked, or he's just being an ass. Make sure he knows X-class skills are still capped as normal (of course, once you take all those classes almost everything is going to be a class skill). Even if they weren't Able Learner isn't an overpowered Feat. You still have to spend ranks, and your ranks are still capped.
#5
ninjarabbit
Oct 21, 2008 20:18:31 It's not overpowered compared to anything the wizard or druid can do .... but then again if those 2 characters are taking the combat casting feat (and not to qualify for a PrC) then it's obvious that no one there really understands optimization or class balance.
#6
Balthanon
Oct 21, 2008 20:32:48 Personally, I don't allow Able Learner in its default form. Not necessarily because it's overpowered per se, but because it takes a significant amount of the challenge out of building a character. For the character in question, the cap on cross class skills doesn't really have any impact whatsoever-- rogues have 80% of the skills in the game and the multiclassing takes care of the rest.

Prestige classes dependent on skill ranks become significantly easier to qualify for and keeping a skill based characters skills in decent form is trivial. (Though too many 2 skill point classes will degrade them obviously.) Overall, the feat tends to nearly eliminate one of the major opportunity costs associated with prestige classes-- which are the most significant source of abilities in the game. In that sense, it does unbalance things somewhat.
#7
Omen_of_Peace
Oct 21, 2008 21:12:25 I've played with several DMs who actually give it as a bonus feat - it's also pretty much what Frank & K advocate in their Tomes IIRC.
Especially when starting at mid-to-high levels it is a boon not to have to make sure skills are ok level by level.

It is not overpowered IMO.
#8
CantripN
Oct 22, 2008 0:34:57 I really don't think it's overpowered. In truth, I give it out as a Bonus Feat to simplify math, as do many DMs I know.

Skill Points really aren't what "breaks" games, so it's only really useful for a skilful PC, allowing him to stay playable.
#9
PlzBreakMyCampaign
Oct 22, 2008 1:21:11 and what 'sort' of DM enforces xp penalties, DeathlessJuan? A normal, to solid DM that's who. For all my absolutely ridiculous power gaming, I would never consider encourage a player to so sloppily building their characters. Swapping similar favored class; we'll talk. x2/y2/z2/etc is fine by me. But ignoring XP penalties? forget it
#10
manic_man
Oct 22, 2008 6:44:14
I am not wanting to seem like a whiner but it does strike me as odd to say Able Learner is over powered. All in all I would like to hear how Char Op boards feel about the Able Learner decision.

It is actually very high powered but mostly in some situations/campaigns
If you're playing a rogue, it becomes average to you
If your campaign is all hack and slash, it becomes less than average
If your campaign does not use PrCs, it becomes merely good
#11
Senevri
Oct 22, 2008 6:44:54
because it takes a significant amount of the challenge out of building a character.

Now, I really enjoy character building, as I find it to be a delightful puzzle... but 3.5 character building _penalizes_ those who aren't good at it or who don't want to put any effort into it. A dwarven fighter with Toughness, Endurance and Athletic should be tough, enduring and athletic, instead of complete Fail.
#12
empirate
Oct 22, 2008 6:55:26 I guess what you should really be thinking about here is whether Iron Will and Dodge are good choices for the kind of character you wanna play. Far from optimized, I'd say, though you might need them for prereqs. Your build ideas don't seem to indicate that, though.

For a little more rogue-y optimization I'd say look into a Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X combo with Daring Outlaw and TWF. No need to dip Ranger for TWF, just take the feat already. Barbarian seems strange, too - are you gonna sneak attack with two (light) weapons or whack things with a very large piece of metal for full Power Attack? Can't have both and optimize.

Core only, I'd recommend Fighter 1/Rogue 19, actually (for max Sneak Attack), or better yet, Fighter 4/Rogue 16 (for BAB 16 and almost max Sneak Attack). Maybe mix in Assassin 8 instead of Rogue levels for great spells, Hide in Plain Sight and Sneak Attack progression instead of skill points and special abilities. Your call. For Hide in Plain Sight only you might consider dipping Shadowdancer (perhaps go Shadowdancer 2 for Darkvision), but it requires lots of Feat, none of which is really helpful to your character.

Feat choices in Core only are hard, but Dodge probably shouldn't make it. Iron Will can be decent in Core, if only because your will save is below cellar-level as is. Other good ones in Core only: Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Improved Feint (requires Combat Expertise), Weapon Finesse, TWF, Skill Focus (UMD), Blind-Fight, Leadership. Maybe even Weapon Focus (no, I don't think it's that bad in Core only!).
#13
pithica
Oct 22, 2008 7:20:10
For Hide in Plain Sight only you might consider dipping Shadowdancer (perhaps go Shadowdancer 2 for Darkvision), but it requires lots of Feat, none of which is really helpful to your character.

I like Dark Creature template from tome of magic for Hide in Plain Sight. That version works just like Shadowdancer's, except that it doesn't cost you any feats and it's Ex instead of Su, meaning you can do it even in an AMF. Dark creature also gives you a lot of other nifty stuff (including darkvision) and if you play with level buy-back, doesn't cost you anything but 2k xp which will mostly be made up for long before 20.
#14
deathlessjuan
Oct 22, 2008 9:38:57
and what 'sort' of DM enforces xp penalties, DeathlessJuan? A normal, to solid DM that's who. For all my absolutely ridiculous power gaming, I would never consider encourage a player to so sloppily building their characters. Swapping similar favored class; we'll talk. x2/y2/z2/etc is fine by me. But ignoring XP penalties? forget it

Actually, it is a very common house rule, for most of the optimizers on these boards, to ignore the XP penalties. I, however, do enforce them in my games. If a player wants to 'powerbuild' by 'dipping' into so many classes, he has all the right to do so. I have the right to cut his exp into little pieces.
#15
xoraxx
Oct 22, 2008 10:53:44
Actually, it is a very common house rule, for most of the optimizers on these boards, to ignore the XP penalties. I, however, do enforce them in my games. If a player wants to 'powerbuild' by 'dipping' into so many classes, he has all the right to do so. I have the right to cut his exp into little pieces.

I think the main problem with exp penalties is that they usually encourage dipping (example: Barbarian 2/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 2 is alot better then Barbarian 1/ Fighter 5 and has no exp penalty whatsoever, while the second build has an exp penaltie unless its a human/half-orc/half-elf/dwarf). Also the fact that PrC's don't count towards exp penalties doesn't do anything to prevent dipping as well.
So exp penalties are (usually) counterproductive and encourage clever dipping rather than taking a thematic level for backround reasons.
#16
pfooti
Oct 22, 2008 10:55:51
I like Dark Creature template from tome of magic for Hide in Plain Sight. That version works just like Shadowdancer's, except that it doesn't cost you any feats and it's Ex instead of Su, meaning you can do it even in an AMF. Dark creature also gives you a lot of other nifty stuff (including darkvision) and if you play with level buy-back, doesn't cost you anything but 2k xp which will mostly be made up for long before 20.

Actually, this isn't true. The Dark Creature's HiPS is just like the Ranger's HiPS - it lets you hide while being observed. Otherwise, you need a bluff check to fake them out so you can dive for cover. With both, you still need concealment or cover to actually hide.

A shadowdancer's HiPS ALSO grants you the ability to hide without having concealment or cover. This is the similar to the ability granted by the ranger Camouflage ability, but is NOT granted by the Dark template.

As a dark creature, you still have to find something to hide behind, which (in my opinion) is a far more annoying condition to satisfy with the hide mechanics.
#17
seeking_knight_of_graves
Oct 22, 2008 11:00:11 The Dm is ok with allowing multiclassing. I figured dodge if only to get spring attack later on. Though you all are right about getting the TWF. I am trying to make a rogue that can be useful skill wise yet not be too squishy if combate rolls around. Also The DM thinks sneak attack will be used all the way to higher levels. I told him that if we face undead or constructs sneak will not be all that great. He shook his head and did not really say much more.

I did point out to him that is it still half character level for cross class skills even with able learner. I see everyone's point as everyone has a different campaign. But this one is going to be more combat oriented and if I had able learner then i could keep my hide and move silently skills at least in good standing.

I had the barbarian class in there for uncanny dodge and the boost to movement. But I am very open to other builds. Rogue 16/Fighter 4 sounds good too. Just to say it seems like rogue 14 is a exit point for the class as there is nothing gained at that level other then saves. Still thanks all and I will keep everyone informed.

P.S Forgot to add. DM is using a critical fumble table. If someone rolls a 1 one a d20 then they have to roll a d6. If the d6 is a 1 then it is a critcal fumble. Nothing broken but might have weapon slip out of hands, ect.
#18
pithica
Oct 22, 2008 11:22:50
As a dark creature, you still have to find something to hide behind, which (in my opinion) is a far more annoying condition to satisfy with the hide mechanics.

I never noticed that about Shadow Dancer, so I thank you for the correction. But I still think that Dark Creature is the better choice, considering all the other stuff it grants you and it's total cost of ownership.
#19
empirate
Oct 22, 2008 17:55:25 Sure Dark creature template is among the best options for +LA races. But the OP specifically said Core only, and while his DM says he is "willing" to look into non-core stuff and may allow it, I don't think Dark creature would make the cut. This is a DM who thinks Combat Casting is a good idea, and Able Learner is overpowered, after all...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 seeking_knight_of_graves Oct 21, 2008 18:53:00	Dear wise people of the char op boards. I joined a D&D campaign where I am playing a 1st level human rogue. All the other players are 1st level too. When we made our characters, 32 point buy, I got a feeling that this is going to be an odd game. Now I know everyone plays what they feel is right for themselves and I have nothing against that. But the DM managed to convince the other players to pick some un optimezed things. For example the wizard (Half-Elf) and the druid (Elf) picked combat casting for their starting feats. Our fighter (dwarf) picked up an 8 in cha after racial. I think he got like some odd other stats I do not remember. When it came to me I picked human rogue. I said it is the most optimzed race in Core because of the extra feat and skill points. The DM looked at me weird and said halfing was most optimzed for a rogue. Well I made out my stats, 8 str, 15 dex, 15 con, 16 int, 10 wis, 14 cha. So it all seemed ok. When it came to feats I asked the DM if I can take able learner from RoD. He looked over the feat and said no. It was too overpowered. Stunned I asked him why, he told me that being able to take cross class skills for 1 point a rank instead of 2 was over powered. Now it is a Core only game but the DM is willing to look at stuff outside of core. So I took iron will and dodge. I am not wanting to seem like a whiner but it does strike me as odd to say Able Learner is over powered. All in all I would like to hear how Char Op boards feel about the Able Learner decision. Also I would love some help for my character. I am thinking of going rogue 1, ranger 2, barbarian 2, fighter 2, then (hopefully), hexblade 3, swashbuckler 3, 3 more of rogue and maybe 4 of either ninja or warblade (depending on DM. if he does not allow the others then rogue 14, ranger 2, barbarian 2, fighter 2. Thank you all.
#2 deathlessjuan Oct 21, 2008 18:57:47	Did the DM realise that the cross class skill ranks were still capped at 1/2 value? If not, that might have thrown him. The optimizer in me is appalled but the sneaky DM within is chuckling very sadistically. Is he a DM that enforces multiclass penalties? If so, I can understand the veto.
#3 muertog Oct 21, 2008 19:04:09	Um, what are you -trying- to do with your character? I take it is some sort of front-line fighter, with all the full BAB classes. Going from that to rogue 14 is a big jump. Additionally, what is the base race you are using? You are going to hit some pretty miserable XP penalties with the build as-is.
#4 pithica Oct 21, 2008 20:15:22	If he keeps them all at 2 and only takes level 3 in any of them except for his highest level one after he's done taking new base classes, he won't have an xp penalty as a human. I once built a frontline Glass Cannon/BSF like that for a campaign a friend was running in which all PRC's were disallowed (but pretty much everything else was okay, it was odd). You just have to go through each class (except possibly your 'main' class) and take levels 1 and 2, then move to the next until you are done, then take level 3 in the two or three you want the 3rd level in, and finish off your 'main' class if you haven't already. None of your 'lower' (I.E. non-favored) classes are ever more than 1 level apart that way, and therefore you don't take an XP penalty. I agree with Deathless, he probably didn't understand how the feat worked, or he's just being an ass. Make sure he knows X-class skills are still capped as normal (of course, once you take all those classes almost everything is going to be a class skill). Even if they weren't Able Learner isn't an overpowered Feat. You still have to spend ranks, and your ranks are still capped.
#5 ninjarabbit Oct 21, 2008 20:18:31	It's not overpowered compared to anything the wizard or druid can do .... but then again if those 2 characters are taking the combat casting feat (and not to qualify for a PrC) then it's obvious that no one there really understands optimization or class balance.
#6 Balthanon Oct 21, 2008 20:32:48	Personally, I don't allow Able Learner in its default form. Not necessarily because it's overpowered per se, but because it takes a significant amount of the challenge out of building a character. For the character in question, the cap on cross class skills doesn't really have any impact whatsoever-- rogues have 80% of the skills in the game and the multiclassing takes care of the rest. Prestige classes dependent on skill ranks become significantly easier to qualify for and keeping a skill based characters skills in decent form is trivial. (Though too many 2 skill point classes will degrade them obviously.) Overall, the feat tends to nearly eliminate one of the major opportunity costs associated with prestige classes-- which are the most significant source of abilities in the game. In that sense, it does unbalance things somewhat.
#7 Omen_of_Peace Oct 21, 2008 21:12:25	I've played with several DMs who actually give it as a bonus feat - it's also pretty much what Frank & K advocate in their Tomes IIRC. Especially when starting at mid-to-high levels it is a boon not to have to make sure skills are ok level by level. It is not overpowered IMO.
#8 CantripN Oct 22, 2008 0:34:57	I really don't think it's overpowered. In truth, I give it out as a Bonus Feat to simplify math, as do many DMs I know. Skill Points really aren't what "breaks" games, so it's only really useful for a skilful PC, allowing him to stay playable.
#9 PlzBreakMyCampaign Oct 22, 2008 1:21:11	and what 'sort' of DM enforces xp penalties, DeathlessJuan? A normal, to solid DM that's who. For all my absolutely ridiculous power gaming, I would never consider encourage a player to so sloppily building their characters. Swapping similar favored class; we'll talk. x2/y2/z2/etc is fine by me. But ignoring XP penalties? forget it
#10 manic_man Oct 22, 2008 6:44:14	I am not wanting to seem like a whiner but it does strike me as odd to say Able Learner is over powered. All in all I would like to hear how Char Op boards feel about the Able Learner decision. It is actually very high powered but mostly in some situations/campaigns If you're playing a rogue, it becomes average to you If your campaign is all hack and slash, it becomes less than average If your campaign does not use PrCs, it becomes merely good
#11 Senevri Oct 22, 2008 6:44:54	because it takes a significant amount of the challenge out of building a character. Now, I really enjoy character building, as I find it to be a delightful puzzle... but 3.5 character building _penalizes_ those who aren't good at it or who don't want to put any effort into it. A dwarven fighter with Toughness, Endurance and Athletic should be tough, enduring and athletic, instead of complete Fail.
#12 empirate Oct 22, 2008 6:55:26	I guess what you should really be thinking about here is whether Iron Will and Dodge are good choices for the kind of character you wanna play. Far from optimized, I'd say, though you might need them for prereqs. Your build ideas don't seem to indicate that, though. For a little more rogue-y optimization I'd say look into a Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X combo with Daring Outlaw and TWF. No need to dip Ranger for TWF, just take the feat already. Barbarian seems strange, too - are you gonna sneak attack with two (light) weapons or whack things with a very large piece of metal for full Power Attack? Can't have both and optimize. Core only, I'd recommend Fighter 1/Rogue 19, actually (for max Sneak Attack), or better yet, Fighter 4/Rogue 16 (for BAB 16 and almost max Sneak Attack). Maybe mix in Assassin 8 instead of Rogue levels for great spells, Hide in Plain Sight and Sneak Attack progression instead of skill points and special abilities. Your call. For Hide in Plain Sight only you might consider dipping Shadowdancer (perhaps go Shadowdancer 2 for Darkvision), but it requires lots of Feat, none of which is really helpful to your character. Feat choices in Core only are hard, but Dodge probably shouldn't make it. Iron Will can be decent in Core, if only because your will save is below cellar-level as is. Other good ones in Core only: Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Improved Feint (requires Combat Expertise), Weapon Finesse, TWF, Skill Focus (UMD), Blind-Fight, Leadership. Maybe even Weapon Focus (no, I don't think it's that bad in Core only!).
#13 pithica Oct 22, 2008 7:20:10	For Hide in Plain Sight only you might consider dipping Shadowdancer (perhaps go Shadowdancer 2 for Darkvision), but it requires lots of Feat, none of which is really helpful to your character. I like Dark Creature template from tome of magic for Hide in Plain Sight. That version works just like Shadowdancer's, except that it doesn't cost you any feats and it's Ex instead of Su, meaning you can do it even in an AMF. Dark creature also gives you a lot of other nifty stuff (including darkvision) and if you play with level buy-back, doesn't cost you anything but 2k xp which will mostly be made up for long before 20.
#14 deathlessjuan Oct 22, 2008 9:38:57	and what 'sort' of DM enforces xp penalties, DeathlessJuan? A normal, to solid DM that's who. For all my absolutely ridiculous power gaming, I would never consider encourage a player to so sloppily building their characters. Swapping similar favored class; we'll talk. x2/y2/z2/etc is fine by me. But ignoring XP penalties? forget it Actually, it is a very common house rule, for most of the optimizers on these boards, to ignore the XP penalties. I, however, do enforce them in my games. If a player wants to 'powerbuild' by 'dipping' into so many classes, he has all the right to do so. I have the right to cut his exp into little pieces.
#15 xoraxx Oct 22, 2008 10:53:44	Actually, it is a very common house rule, for most of the optimizers on these boards, to ignore the XP penalties. I, however, do enforce them in my games. If a player wants to 'powerbuild' by 'dipping' into so many classes, he has all the right to do so. I have the right to cut his exp into little pieces. I think the main problem with exp penalties is that they usually encourage dipping (example: Barbarian 2/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 2 is alot better then Barbarian 1/ Fighter 5 and has no exp penalty whatsoever, while the second build has an exp penaltie unless its a human/half-orc/half-elf/dwarf). Also the fact that PrC's don't count towards exp penalties doesn't do anything to prevent dipping as well. So exp penalties are (usually) counterproductive and encourage clever dipping rather than taking a thematic level for backround reasons.
#16 pfooti Oct 22, 2008 10:55:51	I like Dark Creature template from tome of magic for Hide in Plain Sight. That version works just like Shadowdancer's, except that it doesn't cost you any feats and it's Ex instead of Su, meaning you can do it even in an AMF. Dark creature also gives you a lot of other nifty stuff (including darkvision) and if you play with level buy-back, doesn't cost you anything but 2k xp which will mostly be made up for long before 20. Actually, this isn't true. The Dark Creature's HiPS is just like the Ranger's HiPS - it lets you hide while being observed. Otherwise, you need a bluff check to fake them out so you can dive for cover. With both, you still need concealment or cover to actually hide. A shadowdancer's HiPS ALSO grants you the ability to hide without having concealment or cover. This is the similar to the ability granted by the ranger Camouflage ability, but is NOT granted by the Dark template. As a dark creature, you still have to find something to hide behind, which (in my opinion) is a far more annoying condition to satisfy with the hide mechanics.
#17 seeking_knight_of_graves Oct 22, 2008 11:00:11	The Dm is ok with allowing multiclassing. I figured dodge if only to get spring attack later on. Though you all are right about getting the TWF. I am trying to make a rogue that can be useful skill wise yet not be too squishy if combate rolls around. Also The DM thinks sneak attack will be used all the way to higher levels. I told him that if we face undead or constructs sneak will not be all that great. He shook his head and did not really say much more. I did point out to him that is it still half character level for cross class skills even with able learner. I see everyone's point as everyone has a different campaign. But this one is going to be more combat oriented and if I had able learner then i could keep my hide and move silently skills at least in good standing. I had the barbarian class in there for uncanny dodge and the boost to movement. But I am very open to other builds. Rogue 16/Fighter 4 sounds good too. Just to say it seems like rogue 14 is a exit point for the class as there is nothing gained at that level other then saves. Still thanks all and I will keep everyone informed. P.S Forgot to add. DM is using a critical fumble table. If someone rolls a 1 one a d20 then they have to roll a d6. If the d6 is a 1 then it is a critcal fumble. Nothing broken but might have weapon slip out of hands, ect.
#18 pithica Oct 22, 2008 11:22:50	As a dark creature, you still have to find something to hide behind, which (in my opinion) is a far more annoying condition to satisfy with the hide mechanics. I never noticed that about Shadow Dancer, so I thank you for the correction. But I still think that Dark Creature is the better choice, considering all the other stuff it grants you and it's total cost of ownership.
#19 empirate Oct 22, 2008 17:55:25	Sure Dark creature template is among the best options for +LA races. But the OP specifically said Core only, and while his DM says he is "willing" to look into non-core stuff and may allow it, I don't think Dark creature would make the cut. This is a DM who thinks Combat Casting is a good idea, and Able Learner is overpowered, after all...