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Abusing Abuse

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
arogenith
Mar 16, 2009 0:34:56 alright, so most of the time, we all take flaws if available cuz who doesn't need the bonus feets? Every now and again we take dips into the traits section for a nice little bonus too. Well my DM sent me these links
Show
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Flaws
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Traits
#2
dr_rocktopus
Mar 16, 2009 3:07:50 These are... I'm... No. I don't think as a gm I would allow most of these, unfortunately, other than depression and alcoholism. These seem like exploits waiting to happen for the most part. I mean, Giantism? Giantism? What?
I tend to also allow only one flaw. There was an excellent build that already did abuse them, I think. This should be it. It's been around a while, but it's pretty clever.
#3
Grumman
Mar 16, 2009 3:17:51
alright, so most of the time, we all take flaws if available cuz who doesn't need the bonus feets? Every now and again we take dips into the traits section for a nice little bonus too. Well my DM sent me these links
Show
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Flaws
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Traits
#4
Kevin_Andrew_Murphy
Mar 16, 2009 5:29:55 Well, it depends on the game system. Giantism is a Flaw in GURPS whereas Huge Size is a Merit in the Storyteller system.

With D&D, there's the Jotunbrud feat and a few others. It's overall a positive, so you should pay for it.
#5
keyes2k4
Mar 16, 2009 9:30:02 stopped reading at Magically-Superior Body. . .

Something about these is a little.. Unbalanced
#6
phaedrusxy
Mar 16, 2009 12:43:36
stopped reading at Magically-Superior Body. . .

Something about these is a little.. Unbalanced

The drawback is so harsh I'd never take that.
You no longer may gain any benefit from any items or spells that grant you a bonus on an ability score.

And no VoP, either.
#7
true_shinken
Mar 16, 2009 13:40:23
The drawback is so harsh I'd never take that. And no VoP, either.

Only one word: Forsaker.
#8
arogenith
Mar 16, 2009 16:10:57 yeah, it is true that some of these are a little.... :s There was one where you had to set off every trap the first time you see it, but get +5 con. I'm just curious because "he" sent them to me and said I should use that list. I just feel bad abusing it :P Grabbed Daredevil for a bard who has a terrible will save, 5% chance to control myself, but if he lets these slide for another campaign I'm definitely going to have to take over this.

Also, I don't think the Forsaker is really worth not having any magical bonuses to attributes. I think it even counters ability gain from things like Giant Size. a 10 lvl prestige still leaves another 10 levels open, assuming you "don't" go epic. Interesting to combine that with a War Hulk though, get around 38 strength, not bad

EDIT: 48 strength **
#9
phaedrusxy
Mar 16, 2009 16:32:58
Also, I don't think the Forsaker is really worth not having any magical bonuses to attributes. I think it even counters ability gain from things like Giant Size. a 10 lvl prestige still leaves another 10 levels open, assuming you "don't" go epic. Interesting to combine that with a War Hulk though, get around 38 strength, not bad

Yeah, but you're a war hulk. You can get a higher strength from one spell (Polymorph, Shapechange, etc) and still be a full spellcaster. :D
#10
arogenith
Mar 16, 2009 16:41:47 I was just saying for that specific trait, the one about not being able to have magic change your stats. If you had 10 levels of barbarian/frenzied beserker or bear warrior, and 10 of war hulk, 48 base strength, bumps to a bit over 60? and you attack all people you threaten on every attack...."for that trait"
#11
phaedrusxy
Mar 16, 2009 16:54:39 It's still not much of an advantage over just using magic... if any. +6 enhancement item, polymorph/shapechange, and at least +2 size (Expansion, Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, Giant Size, etc) can get you a lot more than the +10 from that trait. All the other stuff in your build idea isn't related to the trait, and really doesn't have much bearing on whether the trait itself is worthwhile or not.

Now yeah, if you're in some kind of crazy game where the DM bans polymorph, and restricts magic items, but will allow that... then it might be worth it. ;)

Or if you just want to play a dude with gigantic non-magical strength (an anti-caster who grapples inside an AMF or something), it would be good then, also. But in general, I don't think it is so over the top broken that it makes my eyes pop out or anything. Even with the worst abuses I can imagine, it's still just "meh", IMO. :D
#12
arogenith
Mar 16, 2009 16:58:06 nah, I'm with you, however it could be used for casters when you think about it, who have a lot less bonuses to things like charisma from spells. I just thought of it like that, an extra +10 means 6 bonus spells if I recall correctly, more depending on the already existing score. I guess I could see this trait being fair in the average D&D adventure, somewhat prevents optimization, depending on what type of character you're going for that is
#13
phaedrusxy
Mar 16, 2009 17:05:46 Hmm... yeah, it might be better for casters. It is harder to boost mental stats than it is strength. You can eventually get a +11 from magic (+6 enh, +5 tome), but it is incredibly expensive. A +10 for free would be pretty attractive.
#14
arogenith
Mar 16, 2009 17:08:26 actually, are tome's considered magic? I thought they were a type of one-shot book you read and gain an insight permanent bonus or something. If they aren't technically magical, then that means it would stack with this, wouldn't it? Meaning a nice +15 to a mental stat.....hmmm....I feel a caster coming on
#15
phaedrusxy
Mar 16, 2009 17:10:42
actually, are tome's considered magic? I thought they were a type of one-shot book you read and gain an insight permanent bonus or something. If they aren't technically magical, then that means it would stack with this, wouldn't it? Meaning a nice +15 to a mental stat.....hmmm....I feel a caster coming on

I'd definitely say they're "magical". They're based on using Wish to increase your ability scores. How much more magical can you get? :P
#16
arogenith
Mar 16, 2009 17:19:54 "I wish I get a non-magical bonus to my intelligence" :D
okay, maybe it wouldn't work, I don't have MIC anymore, its been so long....so long
#17
true_shinken
Mar 16, 2009 17:26:18 Let's say you're a Swordsage 4/Paladin 5/Shiba Protector 1/Forsaker 10 with the right feats could be very interesting. Let's say something like dragonborn buomman for a race. You start with 18, add 2 from race and then +20 from magically superior body. You have Wisdom 40. You also have Intuitive Attack and Serenity. You have Wisdom x2 to attack, Wisdom to damage (x2 on Shadow Hand maneuvers), Wisdom to AC, Wisdom to saves and you also heal quite some HP with lay on hands. You really just need Swordsage 4 and Paladin 3 for the build to work.

I mean, any SAD synergy build could get totally crazy with this things.
#18
phaedrusxy
Mar 16, 2009 17:27:03 Wouldn't it be +10 from magically superior body? It's a +1 for every two levels.
You now gain ability increases at every even level, instead of at every fourth.

Also... I wasn't actually considering that this replaces the 5 points that you normally get for leveling up. So overall, it's only a +5 benefit. So it actually sucks for everyone, including casters.
#19
true_shinken
Mar 16, 2009 17:29:24
Wouldn't it be +10 from magically superior body? It's a +1 for every two levels.
Also... I wasn't actually considering that this replaces the 5 points that you normally get for leveling up. So overall, it's only a +5 benefit. So it actually sucks for everyone, including casters.

And another +10 from Forsaker.
#20
phaedrusxy
Mar 16, 2009 17:49:18 Ok... I started looking through the flaws, and I just have to say WTF at this one... It could have benefits and drawbacks, and either annoying or fun to RP.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Broadcast_Telepathy_I_(DnD_Flaw))

I actually played a character like this, but we didn't actually codify it as flaw:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Command_Word_(DnD_Flaw))

And this one... what kind of drawback is cannot be bluffed? WTF! That's a benefit! The other drawbacks of this feat are not that bad at all. Definitely worth having, even without the free feat you get for taking a flaw! :D

Yeah, that stuff is crazy...

This one is also as much of a benefit as a drawback: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ghost-Warped_(DnD_Flaw))

So... if you're attacked by a ghost, there is a 67% chance that you get some benefit against them... and this is a flaw? Even if you roll that your feet are affected, it isn't that horrible of a drawback.

Ok... holy crap, definitely take this one:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Impulsivity_(DnD_Flaw)) (WTF! +3 Init. is a flaw?)

and the Aggressive Trait from UA. Together, that's a +5 to Initiative.

Edit... oh , you don't get a free feat from these unless it says so in the Benefit section, do you? I just noticed that.
#21
Kevin_Andrew_Murphy
Mar 16, 2009 18:06:50 Someone just went and deleted all flaws you were talking about.
#22
phaedrusxy
Mar 16, 2009 18:14:21
Someone just went and deleted all flaws you were talking about.

Nah, they just got screwed up when I copied and pasted the links. Add a ")" to the end of them all.

Edit: Fixed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 arogenith Mar 16, 2009 0:34:56	alright, so most of the time, we all take flaws if available cuz who doesn't need the bonus feets? Every now and again we take dips into the traits section for a nice little bonus too. Well my DM sent me these links Show http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Flaws http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Traits
#2 dr_rocktopus Mar 16, 2009 3:07:50	These are... I'm... No. I don't think as a gm I would allow most of these, unfortunately, other than depression and alcoholism. These seem like exploits waiting to happen for the most part. I mean, Giantism? Giantism? What? I tend to also allow only one flaw. There was an excellent build that already did abuse them, I think. This should be it. It's been around a while, but it's pretty clever.
#3 Grumman Mar 16, 2009 3:17:51	alright, so most of the time, we all take flaws if available cuz who doesn't need the bonus feets? Every now and again we take dips into the traits section for a nice little bonus too. Well my DM sent me these links Show http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Flaws http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Traits
#4 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 16, 2009 5:29:55	Well, it depends on the game system. Giantism is a Flaw in GURPS whereas Huge Size is a Merit in the Storyteller system. With D&D, there's the Jotunbrud feat and a few others. It's overall a positive, so you should pay for it.
#5 keyes2k4 Mar 16, 2009 9:30:02	stopped reading at Magically-Superior Body. . . Something about these is a little.. Unbalanced
#6 phaedrusxy Mar 16, 2009 12:43:36	stopped reading at Magically-Superior Body. . . Something about these is a little.. Unbalanced The drawback is so harsh I'd never take that. You no longer may gain any benefit from any items or spells that grant you a bonus on an ability score. And no VoP, either.
#7 true_shinken Mar 16, 2009 13:40:23	The drawback is so harsh I'd never take that. And no VoP, either. Only one word: Forsaker.
#8 arogenith Mar 16, 2009 16:10:57	yeah, it is true that some of these are a little.... :s There was one where you had to set off every trap the first time you see it, but get +5 con. I'm just curious because "he" sent them to me and said I should use that list. I just feel bad abusing it :P Grabbed Daredevil for a bard who has a terrible will save, 5% chance to control myself, but if he lets these slide for another campaign I'm definitely going to have to take over this. Also, I don't think the Forsaker is really worth not having any magical bonuses to attributes. I think it even counters ability gain from things like Giant Size. a 10 lvl prestige still leaves another 10 levels open, assuming you "don't" go epic. Interesting to combine that with a War Hulk though, get around 38 strength, not bad EDIT: 48 strength **
#9 phaedrusxy Mar 16, 2009 16:32:58	Also, I don't think the Forsaker is really worth not having any magical bonuses to attributes. I think it even counters ability gain from things like Giant Size. a 10 lvl prestige still leaves another 10 levels open, assuming you "don't" go epic. Interesting to combine that with a War Hulk though, get around 38 strength, not bad Yeah, but you're a war hulk. You can get a higher strength from one spell (Polymorph, Shapechange, etc) and still be a full spellcaster. :D
#10 arogenith Mar 16, 2009 16:41:47	I was just saying for that specific trait, the one about not being able to have magic change your stats. If you had 10 levels of barbarian/frenzied beserker or bear warrior, and 10 of war hulk, 48 base strength, bumps to a bit over 60? and you attack all people you threaten on every attack...."for that trait"
#11 phaedrusxy Mar 16, 2009 16:54:39	It's still not much of an advantage over just using magic... if any. +6 enhancement item, polymorph/shapechange, and at least +2 size (Expansion, Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, Giant Size, etc) can get you a lot more than the +10 from that trait. All the other stuff in your build idea isn't related to the trait, and really doesn't have much bearing on whether the trait itself is worthwhile or not. Now yeah, if you're in some kind of crazy game where the DM bans polymorph, and restricts magic items, but will allow that... then it might be worth it. ;) Or if you just want to play a dude with gigantic non-magical strength (an anti-caster who grapples inside an AMF or something), it would be good then, also. But in general, I don't think it is so over the top broken that it makes my eyes pop out or anything. Even with the worst abuses I can imagine, it's still just "meh", IMO. :D
#12 arogenith Mar 16, 2009 16:58:06	nah, I'm with you, however it could be used for casters when you think about it, who have a lot less bonuses to things like charisma from spells. I just thought of it like that, an extra +10 means 6 bonus spells if I recall correctly, more depending on the already existing score. I guess I could see this trait being fair in the average D&D adventure, somewhat prevents optimization, depending on what type of character you're going for that is
#13 phaedrusxy Mar 16, 2009 17:05:46	Hmm... yeah, it might be better for casters. It is harder to boost mental stats than it is strength. You can eventually get a +11 from magic (+6 enh, +5 tome), but it is incredibly expensive. A +10 for free would be pretty attractive.
#14 arogenith Mar 16, 2009 17:08:26	actually, are tome's considered magic? I thought they were a type of one-shot book you read and gain an insight permanent bonus or something. If they aren't technically magical, then that means it would stack with this, wouldn't it? Meaning a nice +15 to a mental stat.....hmmm....I feel a caster coming on
#15 phaedrusxy Mar 16, 2009 17:10:42	actually, are tome's considered magic? I thought they were a type of one-shot book you read and gain an insight permanent bonus or something. If they aren't technically magical, then that means it would stack with this, wouldn't it? Meaning a nice +15 to a mental stat.....hmmm....I feel a caster coming on I'd definitely say they're "magical". They're based on using Wish to increase your ability scores. How much more magical can you get? :P
#16 arogenith Mar 16, 2009 17:19:54	"I wish I get a non-magical bonus to my intelligence" :D okay, maybe it wouldn't work, I don't have MIC anymore, its been so long....so long
#17 true_shinken Mar 16, 2009 17:26:18	Let's say you're a Swordsage 4/Paladin 5/Shiba Protector 1/Forsaker 10 with the right feats could be very interesting. Let's say something like dragonborn buomman for a race. You start with 18, add 2 from race and then +20 from magically superior body. You have Wisdom 40. You also have Intuitive Attack and Serenity. You have Wisdom x2 to attack, Wisdom to damage (x2 on Shadow Hand maneuvers), Wisdom to AC, Wisdom to saves and you also heal quite some HP with lay on hands. You really just need Swordsage 4 and Paladin 3 for the build to work. I mean, any SAD synergy build could get totally crazy with this things.
#18 phaedrusxy Mar 16, 2009 17:27:03	Wouldn't it be +10 from magically superior body? It's a +1 for every two levels. You now gain ability increases at every even level, instead of at every fourth. Also... I wasn't actually considering that this replaces the 5 points that you normally get for leveling up. So overall, it's only a +5 benefit. So it actually sucks for everyone, including casters.
#19 true_shinken Mar 16, 2009 17:29:24	Wouldn't it be +10 from magically superior body? It's a +1 for every two levels. Also... I wasn't actually considering that this replaces the 5 points that you normally get for leveling up. So overall, it's only a +5 benefit. So it actually sucks for everyone, including casters. And another +10 from Forsaker.
#20 phaedrusxy Mar 16, 2009 17:49:18	Ok... I started looking through the flaws, and I just have to say WTF at this one... It could have benefits and drawbacks, and either annoying or fun to RP. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Broadcast_Telepathy_I_(DnD_Flaw)) I actually played a character like this, but we didn't actually codify it as flaw: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Command_Word_(DnD_Flaw)) And this one... what kind of drawback is cannot be bluffed? WTF! That's a benefit! The other drawbacks of this feat are not that bad at all. Definitely worth having, even without the free feat you get for taking a flaw! :D Yeah, that stuff is crazy... This one is also as much of a benefit as a drawback: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ghost-Warped_(DnD_Flaw)) So... if you're attacked by a ghost, there is a 67% chance that you get some benefit against them... and this is a flaw? Even if you roll that your feet are affected, it isn't that horrible of a drawback. Ok... holy crap, definitely take this one: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Impulsivity_(DnD_Flaw)) (WTF! +3 Init. is a flaw?) and the Aggressive Trait from UA. Together, that's a +5 to Initiative. Edit... oh , you don't get a free feat from these unless it says so in the Benefit section, do you? I just noticed that.
#21 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 16, 2009 18:06:50	Someone just went and deleted all flaws you were talking about.
#22 phaedrusxy Mar 16, 2009 18:14:21	Someone just went and deleted all flaws you were talking about. Nah, they just got screwed up when I copied and pasted the links. Add a ")" to the end of them all. Edit: Fixed.