So far I'm 1Rogue/3Cleric and I'm very close to my next level up. My DM agreed to let me use a scimitar in the place of a kukri and I currently have the feats Iron Will, Empower Spell, and Weapon Finnesse, and the domains War and Trickery. I'm likely going to get Divine metamagic, followed by improved critical. I'm also considering Quick Draw (for use with a skill trick), or some sort of devotion (such as knowledge devotion). I'm also considering taking levels of contemplative or some similar prestige class with 1:1 casting.
Any advice on where to go from here, particularly classes and feats to take, would be welcome. The main objective, again, is to retain potent spellcasting ability without comprimising the rogue side.
(I started playing D&D a month or two ago, so be gentle.)
but since you really WANT to take this rather faithfull leap:
BFZ is not really a strong class - if you want the cleric/rouge-ish feel, you should try to get Hunter's Eye on your spelllist - either via prestige Ranger (afaik) or extra spell (if your dm lets you) - the spell gives you CL/3 SneakAttack dice for one round as a swift action ... sso the only things left to complete the "divine rouge" feeling would be a b***load of skillpoints and trapfinding (and of course the appropriate skills)
for that you have two options - and BOTH involve taking cloistered cleric rather than a normal cleric (has half BAB, d6, but 6skillpoins/lvl ... and knowledge as bonus domain), simply to have enough skillpoints to pull the rouge of (I'm deliberatly setting spells, that mimic rouge class fetures asside - there is one, that lets you search traps like a rouge ... that one persisted would be option c)
to grab trapfinding (and the skills as in-class) you can either take one lvl of rouge/ninja/spellthief/trapfinding ranger(ACF from dungeonscape)/factotum OR the kobold domain - it's domain power simply IS trapfinding
some other things you might want to consider are spells like golembane (sorc/wis) and of course gravestrike.
Divine Disciple (PGtF)
Contemplative (Comp.Div)
and really any prestige class, that progresses full divine casting and you qualify for without compromising the "obvious" like DMM:Persist (and a Truckload of Nightsticks)
Alternatively, perhaps I could also simply ask my DM to change the BFZ class to add more caster levels and nerf the rest as he sees fit (although I'm not sure it would need nerfing even then.)
I'd add more, but it's storming where I'm at, so I've got to go. Later.
He also said he'd let me learn hunter's eye with the Extra Spell feat (because the feat is otherwise useless under the mana system). Would taking one feat would be better than taking two levels of unseen seer?
I'm definitely building toward shadowbane stalker now. As for feats...
I've currently got Metamagic Maximize and a corresponding Divine Metamagic (do I need to take a new divine mm for each mm feat I pick up? I heard persist spell might be better?), along with weapon finesse. I want to get Craven, Extra Spell, Improved critical (I use scimitars), and maybe pious defense/spellsurge (although I've been moving away from defense because I have a retributive healing amulet). I feel like I could probably use some advice though...
Using turn atttempts instead of spells can be tricky, especially if you're using the abilities and/or DMM spells non-stop. You'd either need crazy high Charisma or lots of gold to buy nightsticks (from Libris Mortis, have somewhere between 3-5 turn/rebuke attempts in them per stick).
As for Unseen Seer (from Complete Mage, if I forgot to say that earlier) and Spellthief...it depends on whether or not you can convince him to adapt the Master Spellthief feat and/or U.N. requirements to divine spells instead of arcane. On the U.N. front, you get an additional sneak attck die worth of damage, Hunter's Eye for free via Advanced Learning, and the Silent Spell feat for free, all for skills your going to have maxed anyway, and the ability to cast 2 Divination spells (arcane (or if you convince your DM, divine)) vs. the Extra Spell feat. On the Spellthief front (assuming if, and only if, you get your DM to allow Master Spellthief for divine spells to quailfy) it not only gives you a die of sneak attack, and detect magic as many times a day as your Cha mod, but the ability to steal spells and, at level 3, spell effects. For example, an enemy casts Anti-Magic Zone on themselves. You set up a flanking situation, land a sneak attack, and boom, the A.M.Z is centered on you, and you can dismiss the spell as if you cast it on yourself. Ally or innocent suffering from a curse? Set up a situation to use the steal spell effect ability, hold back from doing any more damage than necessary, and boom, the curse is on you, and you can dismiss it at will (though your DM may not allow you to do this for some "powerful" curses for storyline reasons).
All in all, it might be worth your while to keep the Spellthief and U.N., but only if you can convince your DM to adapt the prereq.'s for M.S. and U.N. There is already a homebrew feat out there that does the same thing as M.S., but adapting M.S. is less broken than that feat (to find it, look for the homebrew PrC All-Thief, or go to the Spellthief Recomendations board and click on the link for the "Improved Spellthief" homebrew and follow the link to the All-Thief from there, the feat-in-question should be listed as a prereq.). It also depends on how your DM views the Spellthief stealing the spells and adapting the class to his system. Used incorrectly, by him or by you, it could it very broken and unfun for everyone else very quickly. It could go either way.
Also, make certain you get your Cleric level up to about level 2 so as not to suffer XP penalties, unless your DM plays by different rules. It will get unpleasant fast.
Question: "A spellthief can’t steal a spell effect if its caster level exceeds his class level + his Charisma modifier."
Will my class level stack with my divine spellcaster levels with the Master Spelltheif feat, or does that only apply to stealing actual spells and not spell effects?
I don't know about unseen seer. It's one thing to convince him to let me go spelltheif, but I'd be pushing my luck even further to try and eke another class conversion out of him. I suppose as long as it advances my caster level, however, it'd probably be a nice addition and it'd free up a feat.
You don't need to convert the class Spellthief to divine (it's fine as is); the feat Master Spellthief, on the other hand, would need to be converted to work for divine spell usage, as the prereq.'s for it are 2nd level arcane spells and the steal spell ability. However, flipside to that is that both classes' levels combine to equal caster level (for both classes) and the level of spell you can steal. (Unfortunately, Master Spellthief doesn't stack levels to steal spell effects, just spells. And now that I look at the books, steal spell effect wouldn't let take spells that are personal range or stuff that can't be taken down by dispel magic (such as bestow curse). It says that in the book itself, so I applogize for misrepresenting the class to you.) It would really depend on how many levels of Shadowbane Stalker you want. As things are now, you're down to the minimum level of casting 9th level spells (assuming you get full casting PrC's/finishing Cleric), and taking the 1st level of S.S. knocks you down to 8th levels (again assuming you get full casting PrC's/finishing Cleric), and S.S. is an 8/10 casting progression class.
The problem with Unseen Seer is that the prereq.'s reqiure arcane spells to qualify. If your DM isn't going to do this, and/or M.S., or if you feel that you're to push them/anger them, just drop the Spellthief/Unseen idea. It might look nice on paper, but it isn't worth getting your DM angry with you if you try some they don't want to do. talk it out with them, ask them about it as a hypothetical question. If they say yes, you're gold. If not, oh well, back to the drawing board.
If were to retrain my rogue-levels, then I'd be sacrificing 10 skills points and evasion for steal spell/spell effect, spell grace, and two more caster levels, so it might even be worth it anyway.
As to your last question: the book does not say one way or the other, so I suppose it's possible, but it'd be up to your DM as to if you can do it (I'm starting to sound like a broken record, aren't I? I'm sorry.). The answer to your first question, on the other hand, is based on your own personal preferance. At lower levels, it seems like a godsend, especially if you can burn the mana to cast your own spells. Later on, the ability seems to lose its' use; ex. enemy casters have 100 m.p. and you can only steal 2 at a time. All in all, it's really up to you.
If you're playing Tome of Battle though, check out Ruby Knight Vindicator. At 5th level, it negates all armor check penalties to stealth, among other things. Bad news is it's for clerics of Wee Jas only (though the books says the class flavor can be adapted for other gods (if you want to push your DM (not recomended))) and its 8/10 casting. Just thought I'd throw that out for you.
I'm leaning on the mana side, because he'll only let me steal arcane spells anyway and I figure more mana means I can fuel my shadowbane abilities as I use them. Not to mention I'll have plenty of good spellcasting options already because of my cleric levels. Sound good? At the same time, we're not going to have any legitimate arcane spellcasters, since our wizard died and is rerolling a as yet another fighter-thing. >_>
I recently had the opportunity to look at the Tome of Battle. I'd really like to somehow fit in some swordsage levels, seeing as the shadowhand stances/feats are really useful for rogues. Not going to be possible without sacrificing some spell levels, though...
Thanks for all your suggestions, by the way. You've been a big help.
In the case of mana versus spell, I'd go mana, mostly for the same reasons you've listed.
You don't need Swordsage levels to get Shadow Hand maneuvers (though it helps with recovering them to use them more than once a round). Martial study/Martial Stance does the same thing (although w/out Martial Adept levels, all your levels count as half when qual.ing for maneuvers). Grab Shadow jaunt at level 6 at least (as a "I need to leave, NOW!!!" backup teleportation (good for 50 ft.)), and grab Assassins' Stance at level 9 at least (as it is good for +4d6 worth of sneak attack dice, and unlike the maneuvers, stances last as long as you want them to, not on an arbitrary time limit (aka. 1 min/level type stuff)).
If you're going to be out an arcane caster, load up on the Use magical device skill, and get as many wands/scrolls of an arcane nature as you can, mix eternal wands and normal ones for best effect (there is a bracer that costs 750 gp that holds up to 5 wands at once, though you can only use one wand at a time. You can use a pair of bracers, however.) Have most of your scrolls and wands be damage dealing spells, with a few special purpose ones that divine casters don't get.
For divine spells, remember; boost spells, like DIVINE POWER, and healing spells are your FRIEND, and that of your fellow party members. Don't get too caught up in being mister sneaky that you forget your other group members, especially when they need healing and you're the only healer. Grab a healing reserve feat from Complete Mage to heal w/out using spells up during downtime between fights/waves of opponents so you have the big guns when you need them.
Also, Assassin's stance says it only gives 2d6. For two feats, it doesn't seem worth it. I could instead take the Craven feat (which I now can because I won't have BFZ's immunity to fear), giving me a flat damage bonus equal to my character level on sneak attacks. The teleport may be a good idea, but would it be better to learn shadow stride or shadow blink at levels 10 or 14 (assuming I can)?
I want to take some sort of metamagic feat, but idk what. It seems like persistant spell is the top tier mm for clerics, but our game so far has been pretty roleplay intensive. We definitely don't have encounters every day, more like once or twice per session. Wouldn't it be easier for me to just quicken spell the buffs once we actually get into combat? I have a rod of empower 3 times per day, so I dont' really need that one. Retributive spell and smiting spell sound fun, but if I take those, I won't be taking the divine mm for them, and I'll likely be getting another metamagic for use with my turning attempts. How about twinned/repeat spell?
I'm taking Extra Spell at level 9. My DM will let me use to get hunter's eye. Improved critical seems like it might be cool, since I'm using a scimitar anyway, so that's something to take at 12, but if I do that it feels like I'm not focusing on my spellcasting enough.
The rules are (for both feats): you may select a maneuver/stance from a discipline (in the case of Martial Stance, add the qualifier: that you know) as if you were a martial adept of 1/2 your character level, and you gain (in the case of Martial Study) the skill associated with that discipline as a class skill for all classes you take. You can only get the Martial study feat 3 times, though. What this translates to is that at level 12 you count as a Martial adept (ex. Warblade) of level 6, which means you can get level 3 maneuvers/stances, provided you meet the prereq.'s, usually having a number of other maneuvers of the same discipline, or, in the case of Devoted Spirit, the appropriate alignment. Since the max a non-Martial adept charatcer can be (pre-epic anyway) is 10 (20 divided by 2), you can only get 5th level maneuvers at lv. 18 (the last feat pre-epic (and non-bonus) you get). You can also only use the maneuvers once per encounter, with no recovery method (but not the stances).
Reading the stance description again, it appears you are right, my apologies. It gives you an addotional 2d6 of S.A. dice, so it might not be worth two feats.
Please, do yourself a favor, DO NOT take twin/repeat spell. They use up TWICE the spell slots/prepared spells in order to work, not the one you would think they use, on top of the adjusted spell levels. If you want casting help, grab Southern Magician (Prereq.: must be human, cast 2nd level spells) and Runesmith (prereq.: Craft (runes) 4 ranks). Each gives a -4 pentalty to opponents trying to dispel/counter your spells as a secondary benefit (the penalties are unnamed, so I think they stack). Both feats are in Races of Faerun, so check them out. Energy Substitution/Admixture from Complete Arcane might also be worth looking into, or perhaps Extra Domain Spell in Miniatures Handbook could interest you.
Hope this helps.
Edit: Energy Sub./Admix. are from Complete ARCANE not Mage, sorry for the mix up, I was rather tired at the time.