Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 clefable Oct 26, 2008 20:55:11	Hi all, was hoping for advice in making a swashbuckler who will eventually take the duelist prestige class. I am attracted to the swashbuckler and duelist because the swashbuckler adds intelligence modifier to attack bonus and the duelist adds intellligence modifier to ac. The two may not be known as the best combination, but I like the concept of a warrior who is dependent on intelligence. Thus, while not the perfect combination, I am hoping I could get the best out of it anyway. Things I am considering: a)Total attack bonus and damage b)AC c)saves and constitution. d)Other stuff 1)Race a) Humans get an extra feat and skill. Gray elves on the other hand get +2 to dexterity and intelligence and -2 to strength and constitution. With a 32 point buy I can get 10 strength 17 dexterity 12 constitution 18 intelligence 10 wisdom 10 charisma Assuming my campaign limits level to 20, I am putting 5 more points into dexterity. With weapon finesse as a swashbuckler free feat the gray elf's +2 dexterity compensates for the loss of attack bonus from strength. +2 intelligence with the swashbuckler's insightful strike allows me to add the intelligence modifier to my damage roll, which means I can make up for the loss of damage bonus from strength. b) The gray elf's +2 intelligence means one extra point in ac when I become a duelist. The duelist does not wear armour. Assuming I can get access to magical equipment that grants me +6 intelligence and +6 dexterity. At level 20, this will give me 28 dexterity and 24 intelligence. This gives me an ac bonus from dexterity (intelligence modifier is added to the dexterity modifier) of 16. This means no armour can be worn to take advantage of dexterity modifier bonus to ac. c) Is the hit to constitution worth it? d) I start off with 17 dex and 18 int instead of 18 dex and 17 int. In either case, I will eventually raise them to 22 dex and 18 int. With 17 dex and 18 int I get the benefit of an extra skill. 2) Number of levels in each class a) Bab progression is the same in both classes. Precise strike grants the duelist additional 1d6 damage when attacking with a light weapon or (surprise surprise) a rapier. I need 10 levels of duelist for precise strike to deal 2d6 damage. On the other hand, the swashbuckler gains the ability to take 10 on jump and tumble rolls under nasty conditions at level 13, and at level 14 and 19 the ability to cause strength and constitution damage respectively. b) Once more assuming I hit level 20 and get access to +6 int and dex magical items (and therefore get 24 int), I need at least 7 levels of duelist as the duelist allows one point of intelligence modifier to be added to AC for every level in duelist. c) Hit die is the same for both classes. However, duelist gets a better reflex save, swashbuckler gets a better fortitude save. Both have will saves that are nothing to be proud of. d) Duelist class unlocks some more skills, however I believe that if adding points to a skill, one should max them out as much as possible. To unlock the duelist class I need 3 points in perform, which is not a class skill. I could sacrifice 6 points from other skills, or I could get the open mind feat for 5 extra skill points and sacrifice 1 skill point from other skills. Skill points will be taken from skills with synergy. btw skills I will be taking are: 1)balance (dex) (2)bluff (cha) (3)climb (str) (4)diplomacy (cha) (5)escape artist (dex) (6)jump (str) (7) sense motive (wis) (8)tumble (dex) May swap one of them for use rope. 3)Feats a) I am getting whirlwind attack. I am assuming I can use this with the duelist precise strike. A duelist using precise strike can only use one weapon. Therefore it is a waste to try and get dual wielding feats to in. Am considering getting the exotic weapon proficiency feat and the improved disarm feat and getting a whip in the off hand. However if I try and attack in the same round as my disarming attack I shall suffer penalties to my attack bonus since I didnt get any dual wielding feats. Taking improved trip will not be very efficient as my strength is very low. b) I need dodge and mobility to qualify for duelist prestige class. Am considering taking spring attack as well. Blind fight will prevent me from losing dex bonus to ac when the invisible man tries to stab me. d) Assuming I hit level 20, I will only get 7 feats. These will be, in order, blind fight, dodge, mobility, improved disarm, weapon proficiency exotic, whirlwind, open mind. If I dont take open mind I may take power attack. Sorry if this post is very long and tedious. As this is my first post, I hope I am doing this right.
#2 Wyvernhand Oct 26, 2008 22:05:01	Not a bad attempt, gave lots of info. Info not provided is what books are available? Duelist is an incredibly bad PrC. Like, terribad, or worse. It gimps you more than it grants. Your damage will be bad, your AC will not be enough to keep you from getting dead by anything that really wants to kill you, and you'll lack options in combat that don't involve bleeding on stuff. Similar concept, with better execution is thus: Swash1/Rogue3/Swash16 At level 6, you take a feat from Complete Scoundrel called Daring Outlaw. Its not only flavorful, but mechanically it allows your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels to STACK with respect to advancing SA and Grace. Thus, you get the full AC gain of a straight Swash (which isn't THAT good, but its something), and the sneak attack gain of a full Rogue. On top of all that, you get the Swashbuckler's d10 HD for most of your progression, and 19/20 BAB, which is important because if you can't hit, you can't do ANY damage. Now, for feats. First of all, WW Attack is BAD. Like, capital B bad. Admiral Akbar should be all over that page in the PHB screaming ITS A TRAP!!!! because it is. Think about it. If you have 2 foes adjacent to you, you can make 2 attacks. Well, about the time you get it, you'll have enough BAB to make 2 attacks, or more if you use a 2nd weapon in your offhand. So, technically losing 2 attacks, which is bad. Now, if you have 3 or 4 opponents, you'll start to gain a bit on the attack/action ratio. However, its incredibly hard to get all 4 of them flanked, which means your damage to them is gonna be low. Like, 10ish points tops, if you roll well. This is bad, because then your turn is over, and 3-4 VERY ANGRY and only slightly wounded foes can now full attack you, which will probably leave you flatter than that snake I saw on the side of the highway driving home today. Dying is not a good condition to be in, and that's IF you get lucky and don't get knocked to -10 in one shot anyway, which is very likely to happen. So, you lose attacks per round, and force yourself into a position that'll very likely get you dead. Oh, and did I mention that you just spent 4 rather bad feats to get there? Thats insult to injury. Oh, so what feats should you take? Craven from Champions of Ruin is wonderful. It gives you +1dmg per hd whenever you get sneak attack. Suddenly, your sneak attacks do about 1d6+2 for every 2 levels you have. This is a good thing. More damage means more dead enemies that can't attack you. Two Weapon Fighting (and friends) from the PHB. Normally, TWF is bad for a fighter type, but you've got something that they lack....bonus damage dice! Now, instead of 1-2 attacks with all your happy bonus dice, you get 2-4 attacks. This is a good thing. Able Learner from Races of Destiny. Sadly, only available if you are human, changeling, or dopplganger, which rules out Grey Elf, but is still a solid choice. Since most of your "roguey" skills aren't Swash skills, you'll have to spend extra points to get the ranks you need to keep up with the power curve for things like Disable Device. Since Swash's get fewer skill points than rogues, you are burning that candle from both ends. This helps you keep afloat when you are really pressed for skill points. Combat Expertese from the PHB. Its not great, but its something that'll get your AC up a bit. It's better earlier than later, so if you use PHBII retraining rules, you can swap it out later. Travel Devotion from Complete Champion. This allows you to make moves as swift actions for 10 rounds, and useable once per day. This is great, because it allows you to move/tumble around and still get that full attack action that gives you all those dice to throw around. Take this one two or three times if you can to get extra uses per day. Whatever else you want. If you have access to the book Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords, you can take the feat Martial Study to get something neat like Shadow Hand Technique for a 1/enounter power, and then grab Martial Stance to get either Island of Blades Stance to make it easier to qualify for SA or Assassin's Stance for extra SA. After that, you can take the feat Shadow Blade, which gives you +dex to damage while in that stance. This'll help you with your ultimate goal of making things dead before they kill you.
#3 clefable Oct 26, 2008 23:53:33	Hmm, at level 20 i suffer -1 on bab for all my attacks as compared to a pure swashbuckler, but gain 10d6 sneak attack. Sounds like a good deal. Only thing is I lose out on wounding critical of a level 18 swashbuckler. However I would suffer multiclass penalty. Also, I lose the potential +7 intelligence modifier bonus to AC of duelist. Since my dex bonus to ac is already so high that I am not going to be wearing armour this might be a problem. That aside, is it worth going all the way with the two weapon fighting feats, or would the -2 on all attack rolls and the additional -5 and -10 to attack rolls from offhand weapon make the attacks useless at higher levels. Might be useful if I get improved critical with a rapier. Also, is it worth taking dodge and mobility, seeing as to how I need to move around to get sneak attacks?
#4 muertog Oct 27, 2008 0:13:55	You don't need to move around (much) for sneak attacks. You need a flanking buddy. Skirmish is the precision damage that requires you to move. Padded armor can be enchanted and allows max dex bonus of +8. As an alternative to the padded armor, you could get a monk's belt for wis to AC. Defending weapon in the off-hand could help a little more. Improved critical is not really worth it, since you will be doing more of your damage from the sneak attack than from the x2/x3 you can squeeze out from a critical. Focus on that. Make sure you have a method of still doing sneak attack damage to creatures that are normally immune. Greater Truedeath and Demolition crystals (MIC) are nice ways to make sure 1 weapon works on multiple enemies. Requires the recipient weapon to be of +3 or higher enchantment, though. Tumble might be a better fit for you to move around the battlefield, especially as you have the high int and tumble as a class skill in both classes. There is a class/feature that puts Int to AC somewhere... Carmendine Monk I believe. Worry about your Will save. Dex makes your reflex saves good enough, Fort is your good Swashbuckler save, Will is going to be your red-headed stepchild... which could make -you- someone else's red-headed stepchild.
#5 Wyvernhand Oct 27, 2008 0:19:23	Hmm, at level 20 i suffer -1 on bab for all my attacks as compared to a pure swashbuckler, but gain 10d6 sneak attack. Sounds like a good deal. It is, it is a very very very good deal. Only thing is I lose out on wounding critical of a level 18 swashbuckler. Which sucks, so its not a huge loss. However I would suffer multiclass penalty. Also, I lose the potential +7 intelligence modifier bonus to AC of duelist. Since my dex bonus to ac is already so high that I am not going to be wearing armour this might be a problem. Not if you are human or half elf. Half elves suck, be human. If you really want to be an elf, you can take the feat "Additional favored class". I don't remember what book it was in. Otherwise, you can always try to convince your DM that multiclass penalties are stupid, and that they only hinder the game. If that fails, talk about how Daring Outlaw specifically synergizes the two classes, so you shouldn't count either of them. If that fails, I suggest Tequillia, and lots of it. That aside, is it worth going all the way with the two weapon fighting feats, or would the -2 on all attack rolls and the additional -5 and -10 to attack rolls from offhand weapon make the attacks useless at higher levels. Might be useful if I get improved critical with a rapier. Two Weapon Fighting is really misleading when you read it, but really intuitive when someone explains it to you. Therefore, I will. Normally, you get your standard iterative attacks. At +6, you get an additional attack at +1, and at +11, you get 2 additional attacks at +6 and +1. See the trend? Each attack is -5 from the previous. What the TWF tree gives you is an offhand to pair with it. Now, instead of +11/+6/+1, you get +9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1. See how the attacks pair up? You take the -2 for TWF, which won't hurt you too bad with your nearly full BAB, and you get all those extra attacks. Thats 3 more chances to apply SA and Craven bonus damage. Improved Critical wouldn't be a superb choice, since SA doesn't multiply, and thats where most of your damage comes from. You'd only multiply your base damage, which is your sword damage and your int bonus, which doesn't net you a lot. Also, is it worth taking dodge and mobility, seeing as to how I need to move around to get sneak attacks? Dodge and Mobility are bad feats, except as prereqs to Elusive Target which protects you from being Power Attacked. Thats a lot of feats to invest, so it's probably better to avoid. Travel Devotion that I mentioned is MUCH better for moving around and getting SA a lot. The extra move allows you to position yourself before you take your full attack. You can tumble during this nearly free move to keep yourself from getting AoOed. Try something like this: 1 Weapon Finesse (B) and Craven 3 Two Weapon Fighting 6 Daring Outlaw 9 Improved TWF 12 Greater TWF 15 Travel Devotion 18 Travel Devotion If human, get Able Learner as your bonus feat. If you get to take flaws, nab a Travel Devotion early, and something like Combat Expertese to increase your low level survivability. That should be good.
#6 kurashu Oct 27, 2008 0:43:22	If you really want INT to AC, take not Duelist but Swordsage. And convince your Dm to allow either Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk from Champions of Valor to apply to Swordsage. Or even better, one of my favorite INT centric builds is Monk 1/Socut 3/Rogue 16 with Ascetic Rogue and Swift Ambusher. Again, Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk. Take Travel Devotion and grab some nightsticks. Rumble all day long with skirmish and sneak attack and your unarmed strike.
#7 jaronk Oct 27, 2008 1:23:02	Iajuitsu Master is also good for that... Int to AC when using a Katana. Handy stuff. Swashbuckler 3/Monk 1/Iajuitsu Master 1 with Carmendine Monk gets you Int to AC twice and Int to damage once, if you can fit those five levels into a build. Warblade is obviously good too. In fact, a great build that I personally like is Cobra Strike Monk 6/Swashbuckler 3//Factotum 1/Shou Disciple 5/Iajuitsu Master 5, using Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius. Factotum gives you a few handy abilities, most notably Iajuitsu Focus as a class skill and Int to any attack roll, damage roll, or save twice per encounter. Shou Disciple with that much monk gives you two extra attacks per round, which is great for obvious reasons. JaronK
#8 clefable Oct 28, 2008 1:00:17	Ok, lets do the math than. Please note that I am not very good at this part. Combinations: 1)race: gray elf or human gray elf level 20 stats: 10 strength 22 dexterity 12 constitution 18 intelligence 10 wisdom 10 charisma human starting stats 12 strength 20 dexterity 14 constitution 16 intelligence 10 wisdom 10 charisma 2)Class combinations: swashbuckler 17/ rouge 3 swashbuckler 16/ rouge 3/ carmendine monk 1 Swashbuckler 10/ duelist 10 (HA HA HA just joking) Assuming I get all the two weapon fighting feats and padded armour when dex bonus to ac does not exceed 8. Weapon is a normal rapier. Elf with swashbuckler 17/rouge 3 Total attack bonus: +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (-2 two dual wielding, +6 dex) AC: 7 (dex + armour) Damage: 1d6+4 (int bonus). Sneak attack bonus of 10d6 Saves: +12 fort +14 reflex +6 will Human with swashbuckler 17/rouge 3 Total attack bonus: +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7 (-2 two dual wielding, +5 dex) AC: 7 (dex + armour) Damage: 1d6+4 (int and str bonus). Sneak attack bonus of 10d6 Saves: +13 fort +13 reflex +6 will 20 extra hitpoints from higher constitution. Elf with swash buckler 16/rouge 3/carmendine monk 1 Total attack bonus: +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7 (-2 two dual wielding, +6 dex) AC: 10 (dex + int) Damage: 1d6+4 (int bonus). Sneak attack bonus of 10d6 Saves: +14 fort +16 reflex +8 will Human with swash buckler 16/rouge 3/carmendine monk 1 Total attack bonus: +21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6 (-2 two dual wielding, +5 dex) AC: 9 (dex + int + armour) Damage: 1d6+3 (int bonus). Sneak attack bonus of 10d6 Saves: +15 fort +15 reflex +8 will +20 extra hit points Just to make a note, if I get items that boost my intelligence and dexterity by +6 each, I can get an ac as high as 16. Also my gm will "I'll let you treat whichever class you want as your favored class. Other than that, standard multiclass rules." p.s thanks for taking the time to help me with this.
#9 muertog Oct 28, 2008 2:13:48	You might be better off with bracers of armor instead of padded. Allows full dex bonus, works against touch attacks. Doesn't stack with Monk levels, though. The only reason I mention padded armor is the abilities you can get on enchanted armor, as well as the usefulness of armor crystals (MIC). You are not going to be able to tank, but if you can boost your touch-armor class high enough you should be protected from more spell/spell-like abilities than your partners. An additional idea is dipping for 1/2 levels of shadowdancer. Hide in Plain Sight is great for making yourself unhittable, helps you get sneak-attacks off, and you can hide as part of your move action. Remember, True Seeing fails to help against a person who is hiding... since hiding isn't magic. ^_^ Now I wonder if it would be worthwhile to dual-wield whip daggers... Gives you 15 foot reach, so you could sneak attack/full attack, and then 5' step and hide.
#10 muertog Oct 28, 2008 2:34:54	Another thought: With the additional attacks, more damage might help as well. Knowledge Devotion (CC, p60) would help you, especially with your high int/skill points. Gives bonuses to hit and damage, works against creatures that are immune to your sneak attack (oozes, plants). Having the truedeath and demolition crystals would take care of the rest of it. Even a 1/2 point in the knowledge skill grants you a minimum of +1/+1 against that creature type. Knowledge Dungeoneering gives bonuses against Abberations and Oozes Knowledge Arcana gives bonuses against Constructs, Dragons and Magical Beasts Knowledge Religion gives bonuses against Undead. Knowledge Planes gives bonuses against Outsiders and Elementals Knowledge Nature gives bonuses against Animals, Fey, Giants, Monstrous humanoids and Plants Tailor your focus based on what you are fighting against in your campaign. Just 1 sp in each at minimum, even if it gives you 1/2 rank. ^_^
#11 clefable Oct 28, 2008 3:38:24	Assuming I get carmendine monk, dipping one level into shadow dancer gives me an effective rouge/swashbuckler level of 18, which means I no longer qualify for the level 19 10d6 sneak attack. Going two levels into shadow dancer gives me an effective rouge/swashbuckler level of 17. I can still keep the level 17 9d6 sneak attack and gain uncanny dodge and evasion. However I continue to lose the decent bab progression of the swashbuckler and exchange my will save for more reflex save. How much bab is worth trading for other things? As an additional thought to this, I could trade in another level of swashbuckler for another level of rouge. This doesnt change my bab, gives me a few hitpoints less, gives me 4 more skill points, but most importantly it gives me the 4th level rouge's uncanny dodge, which means my second level in shadow dancer becomes improved uncanny dodge. Is this worth it? Also, I require a minimum of 5 skill points in a knowlege body to qualify for the knowlege devotion. Getting knowledge devotion grants me the choice of another body of knowledge as a class skill. Lets say I qualify with 5 points in knowledge religion (6 actually, since I am only taking one starting level of monk, after which it wont be a class skill), and then after getting knowledge devotion I choose knowledge nature as a class skill. Going by the retraining rules in PHBII, the next time I level, can I transfer 4 points from knowledge religion to knowledge nature, seeing as to how knowledge religion was the qualifying skill? PHBII only mentions such restrictions for feats.
#12 muertog Oct 28, 2008 4:07:12	The suggestion of Shadowdancer was an "instead" of monk. If you can't be seen, you can't be hit, so AC is not as important. I guess you could still use both, but it is a little less important there. I mentioned the 2nd level of Shadowdancer for the darkvision. I tend to play in magic-light games, and humans aren't able to see in the dark. Improved uncanny dodge is not quite as useful, since you will likely not be in face-to-face melee combat, and so shouldn't be surrounded. There is also an alternate class feature where you can trade your evasion from rogue for the ability to reverse spells cast at you upon their caster. Not a great feature (since it requires that the spell miss you), but that way you still get use out of the Shadowdancer's second level evasion as well. Rogues get Knowlege (Local), and get more skill points than monk, so could use those skill points to qualify, and then retrain. As long as you end up with at least one Knowledge (any) with greater than 5 points after the retrain, you should still qualify for the Knowledge Devotion. Also, consider saving one of the levels of rogue for around level 10 or so... dump all points into UMD while it is a class skill at that point, to save you points and enable UMD goodness.
#13 clefable Oct 28, 2008 8:01:02	If I use the hide in plain sight ability, am I effectively invisible to the opponent? If so wont I only get off one sneak attack, after which i am no longer hidden and therefore dont get the benefit of being invisible?
#14 muertog Oct 28, 2008 10:04:37	HIPS means you can attempt a hide check at any point as long as the conditions are met. Scout/Ranger can only do it while in natural areas (outdoors, unworked caverns), while Shadowdancer can do it anywhere there is shadowy/dim illumination. If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76). Normally if you use a melee weapon, you are no longer hidden after your first attack: Those struck by an invisible attacker know the location of that attacker, unless the attack came from farther away than 5 feet. In this case, the struck targets know the general location of the attacker but haven’t pinpointed the exact location. This means you can use a weapon with reach (such as a whip or glaive) and continue to get sneak attacks against the opponent as long as you can remain hidden. Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot. You appear to want to get multiple attacks off as well as critical damage. That case you want to get yourself in a flanking position. HIPS won't help you trigger flanking, but it can help you avoid getting targetted until you -do- get in position to flank, at which point it doesn't matter if you are hidden between attacks. And, you can hide -after- your full attack action and make a 5' step to avoid getting detected/reprisal from an opponent (who hopefully isn't alive any longer after 7/8 sneak attacks in a row).
#15 clefable Oct 28, 2008 11:13:14	My gm, mentioned the dual strike feat, which allows me to throw out my additional attacks as part of a standard action. Which means I can repeatedly move into flanking position, attack multiple times, move to hide again and then move into flanking position the next round to attack multiple times again. I will only get 7 feats as an elf: Weapon Finesse (B) 1)additional favoured class 3 Two Weapon Fighting 6 Daring Outlaw 9 Improved TWF 12 Greater TWF 15 dual strike 18 craven
#16 muertog Oct 28, 2008 11:54:56	Dual strike only allows you to attack with two weapons on one attack roll, and takes the worse of the two attack roll modifiers (IE: off-hand). Also only allows precision-based damage (sneak attack) to be applied once.
#17 clefable Oct 28, 2008 17:18:44	Also, consider saving one of the levels of rogue for around level 10 or so... dump all points into UMD while it is a class skill at that point, to save you points and enable UMD goodness. Retraining skills allows you to shift up to 4 skill RANKS every level from any skill to any other skill that is any one of my classes' class skill.
#18 muertog Oct 28, 2008 17:38:22	Rogues get 8 SP per level. Swashbucklers get 4 SP per level. Int 18 gives 4 bonus SP per level. UMD is a class skill for rogues, cross-class for swashbucklers. UMD DCs pretty much start at 20, and goes up from there depending upon how many features you are trying to emulate, thus is not quite so useful until you can get the score over 10. 9th level rogue with 8+4 skill points can max UMD by dumping all skill points acquired with that level into UMD. Swashbucklers will have to pay 2-for-1 on skill ranks. Then again, it does cut into the acquiring "Daring Outlaw" until you get that 3rd level of rogue. :P
#19 tiffani Oct 28, 2008 18:30:32	Well... If you want to use Duellist for bonus AC thanks to INT, why not do it duble up and put your INT to the best use? +INT mod damage and +2xINT mod AC My suggestion would be thus.... Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 4/Invisible Blade 5/Duellist 5/Whatever 3 All you need to make most use of it, is either naturally or with items, a total of INT 20. Giving you a pre-gear, pre-dex AC of 20. Giving you probably somewhere around 25 AC with dex, as you'd want the greater TWF as well. + AC gear. +5d6 sneak attacks, +5 int mod DMG Rogie skills. Can bluff as free action to give you AoO Lots of skillpoints. 1 Less then full BAB on the first 17 lvls. Daggers can be thrown as ranged weapons. Flaws - Daggers are only 1d4 in base damage. Edit: Oh, this works well if the DM says, "Core and complete series only"
#20 lt_col_pilgrim Oct 28, 2008 19:09:29	There is one that lets you hit with both ... forget what its called. Better might be to consider Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, Adaptive Flanker ... if you've got a flanking buddy. Then you can flank form not normal flanking positions. Otherwise, Travel Devotion. Twice. Or a level in cleric, blowing your turn attempts for Travel Devotion and maybe Strength Devotion. Hell, Knowledge Devotion. Whatever. You get the full-attack goodness that you want with Travel Devotion. Lots of attacks + bonus damage = not needing a really high strength. Take the Rogue sub level from Complete Champion that lets you do a bit of damage to undead. Other things (constructs, plants, things with heavy fortification, etc.) won't be bugged by your bonus damage, but at least you can stick it to the undead.
#21 Wyvernhand Oct 29, 2008 0:49:59	If you don't mind losing 2 more BAB, you could actually split 10/10 Rogue/Swashbuckler, as this would get you 1 rogue special ability. Crippling Strike is really good, especially with lots of attacks. You can end up doing something like 10 str damage on top of all of that sneak, you can mess someone up pretty good for their next couple rounds. Also, check out PHBII. There is a GREAT rogue ACF in there, called Penetrating Strike. You give up Uncanny Dodge, which is pretty meh, and you get the ability to give a -5 AC penalty to a foe when you hit. This works on foes not normally SAabile, so it gives you something to do against big constructs and whatnot. This -5 AC makes it MUCH easier for the rest of your party to hit, especially your PAing fighter and your wizard if he's got rays.
#22 clefable Oct 29, 2008 11:45:41	Here is a sketch up build based on carmendine monk 1/rogue 3/swashbuckler 16, with lots of +6 magical items and abusing the retraining rules: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89031 Things to note: -invisible blade's int modifier to ac does not stack with duelist's int modifier to ac. -By dropping the first level in monk, I can drop the carmendine monk and additional favoured class feats. I lose my 7 int modifier bonus to ac, in exchange I free up 1 feat. -Taking human instead of tiefling as my race gives me one more feat but also lowers my starting dex and int score. If I dont take monk as my starting class, it means I lose 1 point of dex modifier for my ac, attack bonus, 1 point of int modifier to damage rolls and darkvision. This would free up the 2 feats. I need 3 (Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility) to qualify for shadow dancer.
#23 tiffani Oct 29, 2008 15:05:11	Why doesn't they stack? Both requirements are filled. Duellist is no armour, light weapon and no shield. Invis blade is no armour, no armour and at least 1 knife. None of them say anything about dual wiedling. Duellist AC bonus is from a style Invis Blade gets AC from danger sense So it's not using 2 different combatstyles. It's two different abilities. Well, I havn't found anywhere where it say it doesn't stack.
#24 lt_col_pilgrim Oct 29, 2008 15:31:37	Or you could be one of the UA variant monks ... like Cobra Strike ... and why do you think the INT bonuses would not stack?
#25 muertog Oct 29, 2008 15:34:36	Take a flaw to get an additional feat. Possible options that won't affect you as much include shaky, poor reflexes, although unreactive possibly wouldn't be that great... You probably want to move fast on the initiative. Also see if your DM allows either vest of resistance (body-slot version of the cloak of resistance), or MIC rules on combining magic items (Cloak of resistance + charisma) to further boost your saves. At that point, poor reflexes is REALLY not a bad choice for you.
#26 clefable Oct 29, 2008 15:47:38	Sorry, my mistake. Its not that it wont stack, but I wont be able to get it with the weapons I am using. Invisible blade must have dagger/s or kukri/s as his only weapons to get ac bonus. With all these builds in mind, my main question now is what I need to deal with the typical monster I will encounter at level 20. For example: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm The tarrasque has a high attack roll, higher than any ac I can possibly achieve. Should I be focusing on boosting my ac or attack and damage rolls for high level games? Also, I am thinking of taking the skill trick Collector of stories from Complete scoundrel. It gives me a +5 boost to knowledge checks on creatures, useful for my knowledge devotion feat.
#27 stpetegamer Oct 29, 2008 17:28:10	dude the Tarrasq is going to own the fighters mages and clerics, and maybe out of control wild shaping druids, kill the Tarrasq. You would do much better against something like a Big demon that will not be immune to your criticals. The suck things about rogues at high levels is that even with all those dice of SA you don't do a lot of damage because most of the monsters you fight are immune to criticals which means they are immune to SA which makes you into a third wheel in the group. At least the BSF can go out there and get his soak on...