The links in the stickys at the top of the board don't seem to be working.
Given the extra range for skirmish, a Swift Hunter build could do well.
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
Thanks for the link to that Handbook, good info there.
The only reason I am considering Crossbows is:
1) The character starts with low strength (artificially low) but high Dex.
2) Due to the nature of the campaign, he won't be able to access spellcasting for a long time.
Bows seem a lot simpler to use, but the Str penalty would seriously hinder him.
I am thinking a stealthy sort, one who stays out of sight except when he actualy has to fight. With the Str penalty, I think it might be best to stay out of melee if at all possible - Weapon Finesse helps the atk roll, but the damage would still be paltry.
All this seems to lead me to crossbows. Any alternatives would be welcome.
Are there any handbooks or other advice threads for Crossbow users?
The links in the stickys at the top of the board don't seem to be working.
I don't know what material you can use. There is a fighter variant called targeteer in dragon 310 that gets Dex to damage against enemies vulnerable to crits, although I think it has some stupid limitation about not working if you have a negative str modifier.
There is also the Dead Eye feat from Dragon 304, which adds Dex to damage against creatures that are vulnerable to crits, and the Hit-and-Run Tactics fighter alternate class feature from Drow of the Underdark that adds Dex to damage against flat-footed enemies.
Get one or more of those, and your strength won't matter much, even if you do use a bow. Although, some of these with a crossbow could be good, as well, since you could combine them with Crossbow Sniper. You'll definitely want to get either a repeating crossbow, or one with the "autoloading" ability from the Magic Item Compendium, though, so you can make iterative attacks when your BAB is higher. I don't remember if that's the actual name of the weapon enhancement in the MIC, sorry. But I do know that there is one, and it is only a +1 equivalent.
Cru, the basic setup is that the chars start as kids (~10yrs) and the advancement is slow. Its very much a story-based game.
There are tons of house rules, with many of them pulled from Unearthed Arcana.
One game-changing rule is an expanded Gestalt setup, utilizing incremental Gestalt (each Gestalt "track" is earned seperately), with some supporting houserules to keep things in check. I think the inspiration from this may have come from the AD&D multiclassing rules.
A second rule which makes a difference in combat is the possibility that Weapon Enhancement:Keen and Feat:Improved Critical ...no final decision on this yet (input appreciated!).
A third rule is that every skill/feat/ability/spell needs to be either learned from someone already skilled in it or researched by the characters. Trainining won't be too restricted, with specialists 'turning up' sometimes, but its not a blank check - it will all have to fit in with the story which means, other than those few who might show up normally, hearing about abilities/masters & tracking them down & convincing them to train & etc.
Retraining is possible, and there may be some leeway on picking up skill or feat training beyond the usual limits (extra skill points, or extra feats). I haven't quite wrapped my head around the extra feats bit...that seems a significant jump in power, but they may be a way to compensate for the slow advancement in class levels. (I hear the D&D E6 system uses something like this to good effect.)
Pretty much anything goes, any source is fine - even 3rd party if its from a well-regarded writer/company. One warning that came up-front --> the (Demi)Gods Are Watching. My sense is that infamous "Theoretical Optimizations" and blatent exploits will not be taken well.
I don't really have a build yet. I'm just considering what is even possible when playing a child with several penalties to Str.
Other than sneaky crossbowman...erm, crossbowboy, the only other idea I had was to focus on the cuteness and possible pity-factor of a child - performance and social skills - but I don't see how that would work in combat (which will happen) when just starting out, however much it would support the story-side of the game.
I don't know what material you can use. There is a fighter variant called targeteer in dragon 310 that gets Dex to damage against enemies vulnerable to crits, although I think it has some stupid limitation about not working if you have a negative str modifier.
There is also the Dead Eye feat from Dragon 304, which adds Dex to damage against creatures that are vulnerable to crits, and the Hit-and-Run Tactics fighter alternate class feature from Drow of the Underdark that adds Dex to damage against flat-footed enemies.
Get one or more of those, and your strength won't matter much, even if you do use a bow. Although, some of these with a crossbow could be good, as well, since you could combine them with Crossbow Sniper. You'll definitely want to get either a repeating crossbow, or one with the "autoloading" ability from the Magic Item Compendium, though, so you can make iterative attacks when your BAB is higher. I don't remember if that's the actual name of the weapon enhancement in the MIC, sorry. But I do know that there is one, and it is only a +1 equivalent.
PhaedrusXY,
Any material is fine, as long as its not something just horribly broken.
I checked out Dragon 310. The Specialist Fighters article had some nice 'bonus feats' in there. You are right, the limitation is that if one has a negative Str mod, one cannot sub a positive Dex mod
Still, it was worth looking into it to find the other abilities in there. Do you think it would be unbalancing to convert all those into straight feats, keeping the "Fighter Level" limits and such that they have in the article?Dead-Eye definitely helps! It was also in the Dragon Compendium, which I take to mean its relatively well-regarded.
Hit-and-Run tactics sound just perfect for my character concept. Attacking from the shadows, hopefully all his enemies will be flat-footed.
Actually, as you say, if these can be stacked then the Str penalty would be negated...hmm
The repeating crossbow, requiring feat:Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Repeating Crossbow), seemed subpar to getting a regular crossbow with feat:Rapid Reload. No having to stop and reload the repeating crossbow's chamber, and the weapon is cheaper and more likely to be available.
An "autoloading" enhancement would be a great deal at +1! Its not listed as Autoloading, so I will have to dig through MIC and see what I can find. I don't know when we will get to iterative attacks, but it would allow dual-wielding light crossbows which might help put down the opposition before it gets within melee range.
I'm just considering what is even possible when playing a child with several penalties to Str.
You could play an azurin totemist with expanded soulmeld capacity and shape soulmeld (disolving spittle). That gives you a ranged touch attack that deals 3d6 acid damage. That's about the same damage as a greatsword with strength 14.
Assuming your strength score eventually improves, totemist can make a good melee character.
The repeating crossbow, requiring feat:Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Repeating Crossbow), seemed subpar to getting a regular crossbow with feat:Rapid Reload. No having to stop and reload the repeating crossbow's chamber, and the weapon is cheaper and more likely to be available.
An "autoloading" enhancement would be a great deal at +1! Its not listed as Autoloading, so I will have to dig through MIC and see what I can find. I don't know when we will get to iterative attacks, but it would allow dual-wielding light crossbows which might help put down the opposition before it gets within melee range.
I think it is called Quickloading. Try looking for that in the MiC.
And the Targetteer fighter variant grants you two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies at 1st level. So using the repeating x-bow is no problem if you take that first. Only having 5 shots in the chamber won't be a problem for a while I suspect, with only 1 attack per round, and using a free feat for it instead of spending one of yours is a better deal, IMO. Feats are not cheap... even with a fighter. There are tons of good ones when you can use things like Dragon Magazine.
Once you can afford to upgrade your weapon to Quickloading, it won't matter if it is a repeater or not. Eh, that's just my thoughts on the matter. I'm about to start playing a ranged character myself that will be using a lot of this stuff, and I'll be going with the repeater. Although he will also be throwing lots of weapons. The repeater will be his "backup", for when he's too far away to reliably hit with thrown weapons.
You could play an azurin totemist with expanded soulmeld capacity and shape soulmeld (disolving spittle). That gives you a ranged touch attack that deals 3d6 acid damage. That's about the same damage as a greatsword with strength 14.
Assuming your strength score eventually improves, totemist can make a good melee character.
I have not looked into the Incarnum stuff, but ranged touch 3d6 acid damage at level 1 is just amazing. Is there a per day or per encounter limit on that?
The repeating crossbow, requiring feat:Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Repeating Crossbow), seemed subpar to getting a regular crossbow with feat:Rapid Reload. No having to stop and reload the repeating crossbow's chamber, and the weapon is cheaper and more likely to be available.
An "autoloading" enhancement would be a great deal at +1! Its not listed as Autoloading, so I will have to dig through MIC and see what I can find. I don't know when we will get to iterative attacks, but it would allow dual-wielding light crossbows which might help put down the opposition before it gets within melee range.
I think it is called Quickloading. Try looking for that in the MiC.
And the Targetteer fighter variant grants you two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies at 1st level. So using the repeating x-bow is no problem if you take that first. Only having 5 shots in the chamber won't be a problem for a while I suspect, with only 1 attack per round, and using a free feat for it instead of spending one of yours is a better deal, IMO. Feats are not cheap... even with a fighter. There are tons of good ones when you can use things like Dragon Magazine.
Once you can afford to upgrade your weapon to Quickloading, it won't matter if it is a repeater or not. Eh, that's just my thoughts on the matter. I'm about to start playing a ranged character myself that will be using a lot of this stuff, and I'll be going with the repeater. Although he will also be throwing lots of weapons. The repeater will be his "backup", for when he's too far away to reliably hit with thrown weapons.
Ah, I was hoping it was an enchantment that let me hold a crossbow in each hand - something that had the crossbow load itself without my character needing a free hand.
You have a good point about spending a feat vs repeating crossbow, especially about it only being needed at the start. Also, I guess combats don't last all that many rounds...even if they take quite a while to roll through
If I can find anything else interesting, I'll post it. It seems not many people play with a focus on crossbows.
There is mention of getting a permanent Girallon's Blessing for extra arms. But all the assumptions seem to be that 2 extra arms = 1 extra xbow.
It seems to me, if reloading is only a Free Action (vis Quickloader, or Rapid Reload, or Hand Crossbow Focus), that only 1 hand is needed for reloading any number of crossbows. In this case, 2 extra arms = 2 extra crossbows.
Is this correct?
I have had a thought which I haven't seen explicitly mentioned anywhere:
There is mention of getting a permanent Girallon's Blessing for extra arms. But all the assumptions seem to be that 2 extra arms = 1 extra xbow.
It seems to me, if reloading is only a Free Action (vis Quickloader, or Rapid Reload, or Hand Crossbow Focus), that only 1 hand is needed for reloading any number of crossbows. In this case, 2 extra arms = 2 extra crossbows.
Is this correct?
I think girallon's blessing specifically says you can't use the extra arms for attacking with weapons, or something like that. So while you could use them to reload crossbows, you couldn't use them to fire them.
I have had a thought which I haven't seen explicitly mentioned anywhere:
There is mention of getting a permanent Girallon's Blessing for extra arms. But all the assumptions seem to be that 2 extra arms = 1 extra xbow.
It seems to me, if reloading is only a Free Action (vis Quickloader, or Rapid Reload, or Hand Crossbow Focus), that only 1 hand is needed for reloading any number of crossbows. In this case, 2 extra arms = 2 extra crossbows.
Is this correct?
I think girallon's blessing specifically says you can't use the extra arms for attacking with weapons, or something like that. So while you could use them to reload crossbows, you couldn't use them to fire them.
The spell descrip in Spell Compendium says that the claw attacks can't be used in the same round with weapon attacks. Everything else, including the descrip of the claw attacks, seems to treat the new arms the same as the creature's original arms.
The material Aurorum (BoED).
Anything made from Aurorum, once broken, will reform into exactly what it was (including all enchantments) once all the pieces are brought together.
The exact wording in the RAW is 'sundered', but I'm assuming its not very different.
If ammo is made from Aurorum, and assuming the party kills all the enemies in an encounter, would one simply have to 'sweep up' the fragments (assuming the ammo dindn't just deform, or that all pieces are in the victim) to reclaim the ammo?
The spell descrip in Spell Compendium says that the claw attacks can't be used in the same round with weapon attacks. Everything else, including the descrip of the claw attacks, seems to treat the new arms the same as the creature's original arms.
Even if you can wield weapons with them, you'd have to take Multiweapon Fighting to avoid huge penalties for doing so.
Kreen Ranger/Scout (Swift Hunter feat), Now for Feats I suggest, EWP (Repeating Crossbow), Imp Crit, Swift Hunter, and Multi-Weapon Fighting, Crossbow Sniper
With the Kreens 4 arms, you can use the Repeating Crossbow quite easily in all his/her arms, and if you add QUICK LOADING out of MIC, you can add in FREE action reloads, and if you put Quick loading you can easily carry around like 400 Bolts (100 per crossbow), Pump your dex as high as possible, even if it means templates to do it.
If you want some maneuverability, I suggest grabbing 6 levels of Horizon Walker to get Dimension door every d4 rounds.
Pump your Crossbow stuff up, maybe get a Version of (Slay Living) that the DC goes up based on your level, that way you can keep up with everyone else. The DC save on the slay living as it is isnt very impressive though the DC for the arrow/bolt is like DC 14 Fort save, thats not impressive specially if you go to epic levels.
But any sane DM would never allow for a Boost to DC unless you pay for it or something.
Load the Quickloading Xbow in your main hand with some of those arrows from MiC that explode and do area damage. When you full attack, launch the first exploding arrow down at your feet to cause yourself to immediately reflex save. There is a feat somehwhere (PHB2? Complete Adventurer?) that lets you hide as an immediate action when you reflex save. Now, since youre hiding, finish your interrupted Full attack, using your other three hand Xbows to launch arrows that will get SA damage. The DM may rule that all arrows in a volley come at once: if this is the case the next volley (whether at -5 this round, or next round) will benifit from the SA.
Sort of a goofy trick, and it wont pull any amazing damage numbers, but its funny as hell.
If you're not set on the multiple crossbows idea, you might want to take a look at the great crossbow from Races of Stone. 2d8 damage, 18-20 crit range-- it's probably my favorite long range exotic weapon. Particularly if keen and improved critical stack, you could be in good shape for some decent damage with that.
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p... offers a build that uses multiple great crossbows
At this time, I am just exploring the idea of crossbows, multiple or not. Its been interesting reading what kind of support for them exists in 3e. They are certainly more complicated to use than bows, requiring at least a bit more of an investment in feats. The two advantages they offer over bows are 1) Strength is not a factor (why I started looking into them), and 2) they can be used one-handed. #2 opens the possibility for a gun-slinger style
... but only if there is a way to get them to auto-load - or have at least 1 extra arm and the Feat:Rapid Reload.Do you have thoughts on Feat:Improved Critical and Weapon Enhancement:Keen stacking? No decision on that yet.
Some DM's would allow either, Imp Crit or Keen Enhancement, because they effectively do the same thing, and cancel each other out, per the rules of 3.5, however, if you can sneak it by your DM then go for it.
Oh, try to get the Psionic (Bolt Power), added to your bows. It may be cheaper then Quick loading to do?, Essentially the Bolt power creates a Bolt/Arrow/Sling Bullet which is fired at the enemy, does the damage and then the bolt or whatever goes away.
Essentially, you got an unlimited amount of ammo and you may get more bolts not to mention free action to fire?, Maybe make a SMG? for Bolts ? :D.
Do you have thoughts on Feat:Improved Critical and Weapon Enhancement:Keen stacking? No decision on that yet.
There was actually a reason they stopped the two from stacking in 3.5-- I would probably leave it as either or-- you used to be able to get up to like 5-20 crit range when they were both in play. (Though that took some prestige classes too.) 15-20 from a starting 18-20 is pretty good for a crit range on its own.
I actually like Deepwood Sniper with the Great Crossbow, though it's unupdated 3.0 material, so your DM may or may not go for it. It has the nice ability of upping the crit modifier on a weapon though, which lets you get a 15-20 x3 weapon pretty easily. With Rapid Reload and Quickloading on the bow, you're in pretty decent shape at that point.
I'm not a big fan of the truly weapon specific feats being used with Weapon Aptitude myself, since it can get silly, but even without that in my opinion the great crossbow is a very nice weapon.
You might consider a few levels of Factotem. I vaguely recall that they grant their Int bonus to all str/dex based skill and ability rolls at some point so perhaps that will boost up your weaker strength and improve your already strong Dexterity.
If you want to be somewhat stealthy too, they can get a psuedo-sneak attack through their inspiration ability which your nice new Crossbow Sniper feat will very much sync with.
See also the Penetrating Shot feat - it can turn your single shot crossbow into a line of effect for even more potency.
Also, if you throw in some psionics, you can make a crossbow out of a substance called Deepcrystal. Plug 2 power points into it and you get a bonus to your damage for one shot. This also works well with penetrating shot since it's not precision damage and thus will throw the extra damage to all targets you successfully hit.
Some DM's would allow either, Imp Crit or Keen Enhancement, because they effectively do the same thing, and cancel each other out, per the rules of 3.5, however, if you can sneak it by your DM then go for it.
Not tryting to sneak anything, at least not yet ;). Still trying to see if it really is broken.
Oh, try to get the Psionic (Bolt Power), added to your bows. It may be cheaper then Quick loading to do?, Essentially the Bolt power creates a Bolt/Arrow/Sling Bullet which is fired at the enemy, does the damage and then the bolt or whatever goes away.
Essentially, you got an unlimited amount of ammo and you may get more bolts not to mention free action to fire?, Maybe make a SMG? for Bolts ? :D.
I've been looking for something like this! Any idea how to price it as a weapon enhancement?
I tried reverse engineering the Energy Bow here: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20... but got absolutely nowhere. I had no guidance on the auto-adjusting Strength bonus and, what I now guess is, the 'Bolt' enhancement.
Do you have thoughts on Feat:Improved Critical and Weapon Enhancement:Keen stacking? No decision on that yet.
There was actually a reason they stopped the two from stacking in 3.5-- I would probably leave it as either or-- you used to be able to get up to like 5-20 crit range when they were both in play. (Though that took some prestige classes too.) 15-20 from a starting 18-20 is pretty good for a crit range on its own.
I actually like Deepwood Sniper with the Great Crossbow, though it's unupdated 3.0 material, so your DM may or may not go for it. It has the nice ability of upping the crit modifier on a weapon though, which lets you get a 15-20 x3 weapon pretty easily. With Rapid Reload and Quickloading on the bow, you're in pretty decent shape at that point.
I'm not a big fan of the truly weapon specific feats being used with Weapon Aptitude myself, since it can get silly, but even without that in my opinion the great crossbow is a very nice weapon.
I haven't gotten around to looking at the Prestige Classes yet. Still, 5-20 crit range does seem a bit high
My DM is fairly open about things, as long as they are not pure exploits. Having the rules support me, and having a good background/story for things is usually enough...of course the more convoluted I have to make the story the more hooks he has with which to flay my character
Which will be the real drawback, for me, to trying the Aptitude shenanigans. I expect my character won't have any hard limits on # of feats, but justifying learning such a variety of styles would probably strain imaginiation - the character starts as a child so all training has to happen in 'game-time', I can't just make up some crazy backstory (hmm, although if I had that option, the backstory from the movie 'Conan the Barbarian' would be pretty good and fairly simple too). Probably, the only possible use would be Hand Crossbow Focus and trying to say the Rapid Reload (free action) would apply directly to an Aptitude Great Crossbow, rather than being converted into Rapid Reload (Great Crossbow) which wouldn't be a free action.
Speaking of which, you suggest both Rapid Reload and Quick-load. Do you generaly consider them to stack to make the reload even faster than just one alone?
To the OP.
You might consider a few levels of Factotem. I vaguely recall that they grant their Int bonus to all str/dex based skill and ability rolls at some point so perhaps that will boost up your weaker strength and improve your already strong Dexterity.
If you want to be somewhat stealthy too, they can get a psuedo-sneak attack through their inspiration ability which your nice new Crossbow Sniper feat will very much sync with.
See also the Penetrating Shot feat - it can turn your single shot crossbow into a line of effect for even more potency.
Also, if you throw in some psionics, you can make a crossbow out of a substance called Deepcrystal. Plug 2 power points into it and you get a bonus to your damage for one shot. This also works well with penetrating shot since it's not precision damage and thus will throw the extra damage to all targets you successfully hit.
I like Factotem a lot, but was not considering it for this character. I don't see him as having a high Int, at least not as I currently envision him - high Dex and Cha is what seems natural to me.
There seem to be a few feats (wotc books and Dragon magazine) that add Dex to damage in various ways and at various distances - I'm thinking the different reasoning behind each might provide sufficient license to stack them.
Penetrating Shot has really got me thinking. It very efficient, as well as demoralizing to the enemies, when a character can pull it off...but how often is that likely to be? Other than when fighting a large force, one which he should probably stay hidden from, I can't really see when it would come into play.
There seem to be a few feats (wotc books and Dragon magazine) that add Dex to damage in various ways and at various distances - I'm thinking the different reasoning behind each might provide sufficient license to stack them.
Bonuses always stack unless the ability they are from has the same name and/or they provide the same kind of bonus (Circumstance, Enhancement, etc). If the bonus is not given a specific type, and the abilities have different names, they officially stack. Nothing anywhere generically prohibits having the same ability score to something multiple times.
Some DM's would allow either, Imp Crit or Keen Enhancement, because they effectively do the same thing, and cancel each other out, per the rules of 3.5...
About this, I know the 3.5 rules include this, but aren't they from two different sources?
Improved Critical is from technique on the character's part - how to place a blow, how to twist it going in or out.
Keen is a magical enhancement to the blade - sharper, more penetrating.
From a narrative point of view, they seem quite different and natural to stack. I expect this was the reasoning in 3.0
Now, from a gamist point of view, the possible 5-20 crit range that Balthanon mentioned...that might seem a bit out-of-whack.
Even then, given that one would need at least a few Prestige Classes means a reasonably high level...how unbalanced would it really be? Doing this at level 11 or later seems like it would fit right in with the crazy stuff that can happen by then. (I've never played past level 10, just doesn't seem like Heroic Fantasy to me past that point.)
Oh, try to get the Psionic (Bolt Power), added to your bows. It may be cheaper then Quick loading to do?, Essentially the Bolt power creates a Bolt/Arrow/Sling Bullet which is fired at the enemy, does the damage and then the bolt or whatever goes away.
Essentially, you got an unlimited amount of ammo and you may get more bolts not to mention free action to fire?, Maybe make a SMG? for Bolts ? :D.
I've been looking for something like this! Any idea how to price it as a weapon enhancement?
I tried reverse engineering the Energy Bow here: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20... but got absolutely nowhere. I had no guidance on the auto-adjusting Strength bonus and, what I now guess is, the 'Bolt' enhancement.
When I did this BOLT POWER thing for my bow, it was priced as a +1 weapon enh because it was essentially a level 0 or 1 Psionic power. Im not sure but maybe if you REALLY! wanted too you could talk to your DM and see if you could put like a +1,2,3,4,5 sorta deal on the bolt itself, essentially treating it like a +5 Bolt which is essentially a +5 weapons I believe, but im not sure on the price if you make the Bolt power to crank out +5 or whatever? Bolts and add the Weapon enhancement from the Crossbow itself? will they stack? if they do then awesome.
Speaking of which, you suggest both Rapid Reload and Quick-load. Do you generaly consider them to stack to make the reload even faster than just one alone?
I typically consider them to stack, though a strict reading of the rules probably wouldn't allow it because they specifically spell out how they apply to the different types of crossbows. If you go by that though, you couldn't technically take Rapid Reload for the great crossbow or repeating crossbow at all. Given that, I tend to read the feat more as reducing the action required to reload a crossbow by one step, which would stack with the magical reduction provided by Quickloading. Your DM could take it either way-- given the feat investment required though, I don't see it as abusive.
However, since the created ammunition is +1 ammunition and any bow that you apply this hypothetical property on must have at least that as an enhancement bonus, it should be easy to convince the DM to lower it to 6,000 gp. This is still 120,000 arrows that you burn through before it breaks even.
Oh, try to get the Psionic (Bolt Power), added to your bows. It may be cheaper then Quick loading to do?, Essentially the Bolt power creates a Bolt/Arrow/Sling Bullet which is fired at the enemy, does the damage and then the bolt or whatever goes away.
Essentially, you got an unlimited amount of ammo and you may get more bolts not to mention free action to fire?, Maybe make a SMG? for Bolts ? :D.I've been looking for something like this! Any idea how to price it as a weapon enhancement?
I tried reverse engineering the Energy Bow here: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20... but got absolutely nowhere. I had no guidance on the auto-adjusting Strength bonus and, what I now guess is, the 'Bolt' enhancement.
When I did this BOLT POWER thing for my bow, it was priced as a +1 weapon enh because it was essentially a level 0 or 1 Psionic power. Im not sure but maybe if you REALLY! wanted too you could talk to your DM and see if you could put like a +1,2,3,4,5 sorta deal on the bolt itself, essentially treating it like a +5 Bolt which is essentially a +5 weapons I believe, but im not sure on the price if you make the Bolt power to crank out +5 or whatever? Bolts and add the Weapon enhancement from the Crossbow itself? will they stack? if they do then awesome.
I'm fairly sure that a +5 enhancement bonus on ammunition and on a bow would not stack, rather they would overlap. If either was less than the other, the greater would be applied though (most enhancements on bows seem to apply to the ammo).
But, you could put all sorts of other enhancements on the ammo (such as damage, seeking, etc) up to +10 worth, then put another +5 worth of enhancements on a +5 bow to end up stacking +20 worth onto each shot...but it would get expensive unless you found a way to retrieve arrows (looking at material:Aurorum from BoED).
Speaking of which, you suggest both Rapid Reload and Quick-load. Do you generaly consider them to stack to make the reload even faster than just one alone?
I typically consider them to stack, though a strict reading of the rules probably wouldn't allow it because they specifically spell out how they apply to the different types of crossbows. If you go by that though, you couldn't technically take Rapid Reload for the great crossbow or repeating crossbow at all. Given that, I tend to read the feat more as reducing the action required to reload a crossbow by one step, which would stack with the magical reduction provided by Quickloading. Your DM could take it either way-- given the feat investment required though, I don't see it as abusive.
RAW clearly does not support this, however...
I think your reading: a) makes a lot of sense in terms of concept/flavor, b) is less abusive since it negates some of the abuse of the weapon enhancement:Adaptive - using Rapid Reload (hand crossbow) on a great crossbow, or even Balista (!).
At the base level, the guidelines for a use-activated item of Bolt would be 8,000gp (1st level power, manifester level 1, 2,000 for use-activated/continuous, *4 for duration measured in rounds)
However, since the created ammunition is +1 ammunition and any bow that you apply this hypothetical property on must have at least that as an enhancement bonus, it should be easy to convince the DM to lower it to 6,000 gp. This is still 120,000 arrows that you burn through before it breaks even.
Bolt, in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, has duration 1 min/level, so the cost would be 1x1x2000x2 = +4,000gp. This still seemed high to me because a +2 composite longbow with this enhancement would leave no room for the automatic strenght adjustement...but your suggestion to lower the cost due to not getting the +1 might help...
Still need a cost guide on the bow automatically adjusting for user's strength though. Is there a spell that does this? Or how about doubling the +cost of Mighty(+5) on a composite bow (+1,000gp)?
And need a cost guide on the extra damage dealt. The 'bolt' enhancement gives arrows which do a regular amount of composite longbow damage = 1d8. But the ones from Hank's Energy Bow do 2d6...
So far:
Masterwork Composite Longbow : 700gp
+2 enhancement to atk/dmg : +8,000gp
'Bolt' enhancement : +4,000gp (+2,000gp with cost reduction?)
Auto-adjust to Strength : +1,000gp (?)
Extra damage : ??
Power Attack, Ranged option : ?? (are feats priced? thought I saw this somewhere)
-----------------------------------------
Total Cost : 13,400gp + dmg + PA
The bow is listed at 22,600gp.
Put the enhancements on the x-bow itself. Then cast Greater Magic Weapon on it. If you want to blow money, you could also put a bunch of different enhancements on the bolts. That could get you a total of +24 (5 actual enhancement, and 19 "other").
What do you think about using material:Aurorum (BoED) to make bolts which are always recoverable?
Put the enhancements on the x-bow itself. Then cast Greater Magic Weapon on it. If you want to blow money, you could also put a bunch of different enhancements on the bolts. That could get you a total of +24 (5 actual enhancement, and 19 "other").
What do you think about using material:Aurorum (BoED) to make bolts which are always recoverable?
Ask your DM? Per the rules, I think the arrows break, lose their magic, and just come back as normal arrows. Of course, that makes Aurorum pretty much useless, and I doubt that's what the author's intended.
There is also another relic that is an arrow that is always recoverable. They're called Raptor Arrows, and are in the MiC. It is possible to use both those and the bow if you're NG or CG, I think. It is a bit unclear whether the price given is for each arrow, or for several, though.
The bow of the wintermoon auto-adjusts for strength. The +1 version in the MiC is only 3400 gp. It is a relic, but you can use it and get the auto-adjusting strength by just being one step within chaotic good.
so...
Bow : 400
Masterwork : +300
+1 : +2,000
---------------------
Total : 2,700
Leaving +700gp for the auto-adjust enhancement?
Are Relics priced as normal for their 'non-attunement' powers?
Edit: an alignment restriction is supposed to knock 30% off the creation costs...
Actual Cost : 4,900gp
Bow : 400
Masterwork : 300
+1 : 2,000
---------------------
Remaining: 1,200gp for auto-adjust enhancement.
Put the enhancements on the x-bow itself. Then cast Greater Magic Weapon on it. If you want to blow money, you could also put a bunch of different enhancements on the bolts. That could get you a total of +24 (5 actual enhancement, and 19 "other").
What do you think about using material:Aurorum (BoED) to make bolts which are always recoverable?
Ask your DM? Per the rules, I think the arrows break, lose their magic, and just come back as normal arrows. Of course, that makes Aurorum pretty much useless, and I doubt that's what the author's intended.
There is also another relic that is an arrow that is always recoverable. They're called Raptor Arrows, and are in the MiC. It is possible to use both those and the bow if you're NG or CG, I think. It is a bit unclear whether the price given is for each arrow, or for several, though.
re: Aurorum, it says "restoring the item to its previous state"...I admit its an interpretation, but wouldn't "enchanted" qualify as a "state"?
re: Raptor Arrows, don't they have the enhancement:Returning (price +1)? And I think the cost is for 1, due to the wording in the cost to create section (which seems kind of crazy)?
I'm pretty sure the listed cost is for a single arrow, but it is still ammunition, so any further enhancements are 1/50th the normal price.
I'm pretty sure the listed cost is for a single arrow, but it is still ammunition, so any further enhancements are 1/50th the normal price.
BWAHAHA! I'd never actually considered that!
Great crossbows and repeating crossbows are all nice. But you can just use a light crossbow with the quick reload feat. Get yourself a Force Splitting +5 Light Crossbow. Take the CS, DE, and any other feats you like to shot the hell out of things. I even managed to TPK my own hyper-optimized party playing a crossbowman.
That is what I'll likely do (though it will probably be quite a while before Force, Splitting, or +5 are available).
The other tactic I was considering is 2 crossbows (hand or light, not yet decided), walk around with both loaded:
round 1: fire both as a full-action, drop prone
round 2: reload, get up + move + drop prone (if any cover available) -or- hide in place (if possible)
round 3: fire both as a full-action
etc.
Then again, you have Str x1.5 for two-handed weapons, so it could almost be seen in that light as well.
Some DM's let it fly. But the best analogy I can think of is...would you let someone get a Dex bonus to AC, and a Dodge bonus to AC from Dex?
If not, then stacking unnamed bonuses to the same stat is even worse. I want to invent a class abiltiy called "brutal" that adds my Str Bonus to my dmg. The fact it already does this is irrelevant..>Brutal is a unique ability adn I should get it, right?
YMMV.
==Aelryinth
I am currently playing a rogish XBow/skill monkey. I am using the Targeteer fighter variant from Dragon 310 to get full dex bonus to damage. Does anyone know if this would stack with the half dex bonus to damage from the Xbow Sniper feat?
Yes. Unless things have the same name (Blackguard and Paladin of Tyranny's Cha to saves abilities, for example) or provide the same kind of bonus (enhancement, sacred, etc), then they stack.
It's an unnamed bonus from a statistic. Same source, same type...doesn't stack. Just because the ability has a different name doesn't mean anything.
That's a house rule.
PhaedrusXY has it right: unless they are from the same source (i.e., they have the same name, not that they are keyed off the same stat) or provide the same kind of bonus, things stack.
Specifically, the save bonuses of a Paladin of Tyranny [UA] / Blackguard would stack, as they have two different sources (Divine Grace and Dark Blessing, respectively). In case of a Paladin / Slayer of Domiel [BoED] they wouldn't, as it is the same source (Divine Grace) in both cases.
I want to invent a class abiltiy called "brutal" that adds my Str Bonus to my dmg. The fact it already does this is irrelevant..>Brutal is a unique ability adn I should get it, right?
I fail to see the benefit of using examples with poorly-thought-out houserules in a RAW discussion. This doesn't show anything, except that you aren't good at making house-rules.
Specifically, the save bonuses of a Paladin of Tyranny [UA] / Blackguard would stack, as they have two different sources (Divine Grace and Dark Blessing, respectively). In case of a Paladin / Slayer of Domiel [BoED] they wouldn't, as it is the same source (Divine Grace) in both cases.
I was going from memory. I shouldn't do that.
Just as I wouldn't let you add your Strength twice to damage with another feat and no bonus type, I wouldn't let you add Cha twice to saves with another feat/class ability and no bonus type. It's the same thing, and liberally waving the 'different name' flag means nothing.
Change the bonus name, or use a different stat, and you're okay. That's why high AC builds go with Con...you can get a Dex bonus, Nat AC bonus, and unnamed bonus to AC from Con. They are all good.
I'd also like to point out that despite names not being the same, Ninja, Swordsage, and Monk wis to AC bonuses don't stack. Same thing.
IF they really wanted the Chax2 ability to work, they would have said "Your Divine Grace effect is doubled by Dark Blessing," or somesuch phrasing.
Same source bonuses don't stack. The stat is the source, the name is not.
YMMV, play as you like.
==Aelryinth
And Tytalus is making the argument that 'different name' = 'different source', despite 'effects identical' and 'derived source identical' and 'bonus identical'. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, no, no, it's a dinosaur.
Just as I wouldn't let you add your Strength twice to damage with another feat and no bonus type, I wouldn't let you add Cha twice to saves with another feat/class ability and no bonus type. It's the same thing, and liberally waving the 'different name' flag means nothing.
Change the bonus name, or use a different stat, and you're okay. That's why high AC builds go with Con...you can get a Dex bonus, Nat AC bonus, and unnamed bonus to AC from Con. They are all good.
I'd also like to point out that despite names not being the same, Ninja, Swordsage, and Monk wis to AC bonuses don't stack. Same thing.
IF they really wanted the Chax2 ability to work, they would have said "Your Divine Grace effect is doubled by Dark Blessing," or somesuch phrasing.
Same source bonuses don't stack. The stat is the source, the name is not.
YMMV, play as you like.
==Aelryinth
You are talking about what you wouldn't allow instead of pointing out a rule. This is CO my friend, keep your DM fiat.
The Monk, Ninja and Swordsage bonus's actually DO all have the same name "AC Bonus".
I'd also like to point out that despite names not being the same, Ninja, Swordsage, and Monk wis to AC bonuses don't stack. Same thing.
I want to clarify, for everyone reading... they don't stack because of the following:
A Monk's AC bonus only applies when unarmored and unencumbered. A Swordsage's AC bonus only applies when wearing light armor and unencumbered. They never intersected in the first place - you can't be unarmored and be considered as wearing light armor, no matter how hard you try and phenagle the rules.
More importantly, a Ninja's AC bonus specifically states that it does not stack with a Monk's AC bonus, and that it only applies when unarmored and unencumbered.
It would seem then that a specific ruling is required to cause two untyped bonuses that derive from differing sources, using the same stat and the same name, to not stack.
I would like to point out that a Fist of the Forest's AC bonus stacks, even though the only difference between it and a Monk's AC bonus is the usage of the Constitution modifier as opposed to the Wisdom modifier.
Just as I wouldn't let you add your Strength twice to damage with another feat and no bonus type, I wouldn't let you add Cha twice to saves with another feat/class ability and no bonus type. It's the same thing, and liberally waving the 'different name' flag means nothing.
Again you are confusing your house rules with RAW.
As for the strength/damage comparison, I can only repeat myself: I fail to see the benefit of using examples with poorly-thought-out houserules in a RAW discussion. This doesn't show anything, except that you aren't good at making house-rules..
Same source bonuses don't stack. The stat is the source, the name is not.
That isn't just incorrect, it doesn't even make any sense.
The source of the bonus is the ability; it's what grants the bonus. Without it, there would be no bonus, despite having the stat.
Level progression ->
Show
1 Rogue : Point Blank Shot - Precise Shot
2 Ranger :
3 Warrior (targeteer alternate features) : Vital Aim (dex bonus to ranged damage), Hand Crossbow Focus
4 Ranger : Rapid Shot
5 Warrior (targeteer alternate features) : Arrow Swarm ( 2 extra attacks at max BaB,-5 penalty to all attacks for 1 round)
6 Rogue : Crossbow Sniper
7 Rogue (ACF:Penetrating Strike)
8 Exotic Weapon Master: Exotic Weapon Stunt : Close Quarters Ranged Combat
9 Rogue : Craven
10 Rogue
11 Rogue
12 Rogue: Darkstalker
13 Rogue
14 Rogue
15 Rogue: Imp Precise Shot (rogue ability:skill mastery)
16 Rogue
17 Rogue
18 Rogue: Woodland Sniper (rogue ability:feat )
19 Rogue
20 Rogue
Any suggestions or will I just have to have two or three Quivers of Ehlonna strapped to my back?
A quiver of plenty (Dragon 328) produces an unlimited supply of masterwork wooden, steel, silver, and cold iron arrows plus 5 adamantine arrows per day for 18,000 gp. You can ask your DM about an equivalent item that produces crossbow bolts.
A quiver of plenty (Dragon 328) produces an unlimited supply of masterwork wooden, steel, silver, and cold iron arrows plus 5 adamantine arrows per day for 18,000 gp. You can ask your DM about an equivalent item that produces crossbow bolts.
That is perfect, thank you!
Ergo, the baseline is not a stat bonus needs to 'called out' to be ruled as not stacking. The baseline is that the bonuses don't stack because they are all Wis-derived AC bonuses, and your arguments about different classes and names don't apply. And this was reinforced three times over, and you are STILL arguing about the basic premise?
A Fist of the Forest getting Con bonus to AC is different source, satisfies stacking rules. Int to AC as a Dodge bonus is a nod to Dex, but Dodge bonuses all stack. Using Disciplined Intellect to swap Int to Wis for AC for monk ability, and then taking Swordsage to get around the restriction doesn't work, either.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.
==Aelryinth
A Swordsage's bonus works in light or NO armor.
That's RAI according to the sage, but it's not RAW. As you've pointed out yourself repreatedly, the sage is not RAW.
It's a good house-rule, but we are discussing RAW after all.
It was one of the few questions about To9S specifically addressed by the Sage when he said they are both wisdom bonuses to AC, and they don't stack.
Again an indication of what likely (we don't know for sure) was RAI, but again, this is not RAW.
To quote another poster who summed up pretty well why they are different abilities and why they would stack if they weren't mutually exclusive:
"They're different classes and different class abilities which work differently. One works in light armor, and one doesn't. One improves by +1 per five levels, and one doesn't. Besides their most basic function, they're not the same class feature at all.
So, no, the Swordsage's AC bonus doesn't count as a Monk's AC bonus for feats or anything."
Ergo, the baseline is not a stat bonus needs to 'called out' to be ruled as not stacking. The baseline is that the bonuses don't stack because they are all Wis-derived AC bonuses, and your arguments about different classes and names don't apply.
This certainly is not a valid conclusion based on RAW. In fact, it contradicts the RAW in terms of stacking rules. Different sources and all that.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.
In this context, this is a misleading, meaningless statement. The apparent similarities you are alluding to are not a given (even the monk and swordsage AC bonus abilities are so different, that one neither walks nor quacks like the other). In fact, the only similarity is the name, which is exactly the opposite of what your saying implies should matter.
I was talking to some friends and another problem presented itself. I am going to need to have a lot of crossbow bolts readily avaliable to keep up a high rate of fire. I could go through a quiver of 20 in two rounds easily. The only options I know of are the Quiver of Ehlonna which is only good for 60 bolts, or the quick reload enchant which is good for 100. I really didn't want the quick reload enchant because a +5 splitting weapon is already +8 and because I already have the rapid reload feat rendering most of the enchant reduntant.
Any suggestions or will I just have to have two or three Quivers of Ehlonna strapped to my back?
If you have a bit of cash on your hands, you could use a Quiver of Anariel (the crossbow bolt equivalent, of course).
It was published as a web article by WotC, but sadly is has since been removed, but the internet archive still has a copy. Compared to the Quiver of Plenty it's more expensive, but it has the option of getting arrow with enhancement bonuses in addition to their material properties, which is pretty nifty as it lets you load up your crossbow with special abilities instead of a larger enhancement bonus.
The relevant rules are as follows:
Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.
Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.
Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.
In my case, the Quiver of Plenty that Maat_Mons linked is perfect. It is much cheaper and comes with unlimited silver and cold iron ammo as part of the default package. TBH though, I am not so sure I will even need anything other than the normal ammo. I am probably going to put Force on my weapon to ignore all damage reduction and hit incorporeal creatures. Force will let me get around all DR, I could knock down castle gates with my crossbow given a bit of time.
It was one of the few questions about To9S specifically addressed by the Sage when he said they are both wisdom bonuses to AC, and they don't stack.
Again an indication of what likely (we don't know for sure) was RAI, but again, this is not RAW.
To quote another poster who summed up pretty well why they are different abilities and why they would stack if they weren't mutually exclusive:
"They're different classes and different class abilities which work differently. One works in light armor, and one doesn't. One improves by +1 per five levels, and one doesn't. Besides their most basic function, they're not the same class feature at all.
So, no, the Swordsage's AC bonus doesn't count as a Monk's AC bonus for feats or anything."
And you are taking exactly the reverse tact from this.
The Swordsage ability works in light or NO armor...exactly like the monk ability, except better.
The monk gets a bonus to his AC by level...totally different then the Swordsage. He can also get Bracers of Armor and get an Armor bonus as desired, although not so early as the Swordsage.
In short, the Swordsage ability encompasses the monk ability and adds light armor to it. There are no other differences...which is why they don't stack, because one is effectively a subset of the other. The AC bonus by level is a completely different effect.
So, yes, the Swordsage ability would qualify as the monk bonus...except for the fact that it's not a core class, and it was the very last book for 3.5 put out, so there's now way to coordinate it with later updates, so there's nothing out there that's going to refer to it.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.
==Aelryinth
The Swordsage ability works in light or NO armor...exactly like the monk ability, except better.
Kindly check the rules. It probably was intended to work in no armor, but it does not. That has been pointed out, too, in prior posts. Several times.
Since you are arguing the rules while apparently not willing to actually look at the RAW, your comments don't anything to this issue.
In short, the Swordsage ability encompasses the monk ability and adds light armor to it. There are no other differences...which is why they don't stack, because one is effectively a subset of the other. The AC bonus by level is a completely different effect.
Monk armor improves with level, Swordsage bonus doesn't. This is, despite your claims, part of the monks "AC Bonus" ability (again, please do actually check the RAW for once). Obviously, the monk's and the Swordsage's AC Bonus abilities are not the same.
Monk armor bonus only works when unarmored, Swordsage only in light armor (at least according to RAW, which is what we are discussing). Obviously, the monk's and the Swordsage's AC Bonus abilities are not the same.
The two abilities are actually mutually exclusive, so they obviously don't stack. If the Swordsage bonus would work in no armor, they would stack, for the reasons listed in the posts above.
Note however, that discussing this particular issue has (absolutely) nothing to do with the OP.
So, yes, the Swordsage ability would qualify as the monk bonus...except for the fact that it's not a core class, and it was the very last book for 3.5 put out, so there's now way to coordinate it with later updates, so there's nothing out there that's going to refer to it.
I have no idea what you are trying to say with this, but I do support your right to house-rule whatever you want.