Advice on build on how to finish it - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Advice on build on how to finish it

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Kingofswing
Dec 16, 2012 13:27:24 Hello all I need a little help in how to finish this build off that Iam working on

Basic layout
Race Human
Class Paladin 5
Prestige Class 1 Pious Templar 5
Prestige class 2 Divine Oracle 2

My plans are to go Pal 5 Templar 8 Oracle 2 This is where I get stuck and can not find anything to compliment this build

Now I know some peaple are going to look at this build like I have 3 heads but the run down is this I have Mettle and Evasion in heavy armor plus I have full Paladin casting levels through the through the Templar I have taken the smiting charge from PHB2 and the Blessed Battle from complete champion so I can cast my spells faster

Books that are allowed ( well most of them) All the complete books, phb2, miniature, and a few others I can not remember if you can provide a book name and a page number I then can work with it

Thanks for thr help
#2
Krusk
Dec 16, 2012 13:44:35 What is the end goal? A dude in heavy armor who casts some spells, but mostly just is a melee monster?

Cleric 20 probably does that better. I didn't look at the prestige classes, but you can probably still qualify for them as a cleric, and be better still. Cleric 5/ templar 8/ oracle 2 or something. Grab divine metamagic, and persist some awesome spells. If you aren't high enough level to persist a ton of them, devote 1 round of any long fight to buffing.
#3
StevenO
Dec 16, 2012 14:43:37 As Krusk mentions we really need to know what your goals are. I'd also say that knowing more of your build could be helpful if we're just supposed to "know" what that is.

I see one thing in this build I'll flat out say is poor and that is your choice to go into Divine Oracle. Maybe you're keeding your Knowledge(religion) up for a good reason but the extra feat to enter DO is really something I question especially considering the martial hit you take (1/2 BAB and only d6 HD) for the class.

For some reason I think you may be better off going into Divine Crusader provided you can find the right domain.
#4
draco1119
Dec 16, 2012 14:52:02 Pious Templar also isn't very good. It DOES NOT increase your spellcasting (without a houserule); it provides its own, which is only 6-7/10 (or, in your case, 3/5). Mettle is good, but you're better off (if possible) playing as a Crusader (Tome of Battle). It's a better version of the paladin, and gets Mettle as a base class.
#5
StevenO
Dec 16, 2012 15:18:50 I may actually agree about PT not being a great 3.5 class. Unless you get a relic to play with True Believer is a wasted feat (Endurance in 3.0 wasn't much better) and as mentioned the spellcasting overlaps a paladins and doesn't stack. I still might look at it for four levels but then again I'm not a "super optimizer" who is all about the power a class can bring.

#6
Kingofswing
Dec 16, 2012 15:50:32 Ok to fill it a little more I guess the char is to be the main tank and the main melee attacker I went with oracle to get the evasion in heavy armor other then that I would have not taken it second the pious is where I get my spells from I lose 1 BAB and will end with a BAB of 19 if I go with full BAB class after this but I need something that will help along the paladin part ( gray guard is out the DM says that a paladin would never do that kind of thing and is not allowing it even with me being a LN paladin) Like in my first post \i said some ppl would look at it like I had three heads but it dose work out I just need to know how to finish this thing off once I get there

I will look into the divine crusader ( what book? )

and thanks for all the help up till here
#7
StevenO
Dec 16, 2012 16:01:55 CJ, are you trying to make everybody hate you? I'll admit I was a bit harsh with your ealier post as it was actually remarkably polite for you but there are different levels of optimization.

Complete Scoundrel?? Never saw it.

I'll also point out that we really don't know just what the OP is trying to do. Both Krusk and I have asked for something more specific. Divine Crusader is not a class I even look at that often but if he wants a big full time BAB and some powerful spells that synergize with CHA it can work.

I know that if I had to play at the highest possible levels of optimization, which probably means something heavy in Wizard, Cleric, or Druid or something very complex, I'll just throw all my books in a nice big fire because that takes the fun out of it.

#8
Kingofswing
Dec 16, 2012 16:16:07 Yeah just looked at crusader and it dose not fit the bill it may have if I had gone with it before taking PT. See since I hate playing LG char I opted for the LN paladin and that is giving me very few options to go. I couls just opt out and go Fighter of keep going with Pali but if there is a way to avoid that and give the char a little more flavor I would love it.

Since he has Mettle and easion in heavy armor with prestion sense or something like that and he is wairing heavy fortification armor he is almost immune to everything but because of his starting level being 10 and going up 2 levels as of the last game day his armor is not that great. He has his avenger which the DM made me deside to quest after in the first game or lose the oppertunity to go for it.

So you see I have placed in the middle of this crap and had to come up with something quick this is what I got so now I need to fix it as much as I can but I do like the flavor of this char just need to know how to finish this thing off so I can set this in stone and worry about playing

Thanks again for any ideas you guys can come up with
#9
StevenO
Dec 16, 2012 16:17:43
Ok to fill it a little more I guess the char is to be the main tank and the main melee attacker I went with oracle to get the evasion in heavy armor other then that I would have not taken it second the pious is where I get my spells from I lose 1 BAB and will end with a BAB of 19 if I go with full BAB class after this but I need something that will help along the paladin part ( gray guard is out the DM says that a paladin would never do that kind of thing and is not allowing it even with me being a LN paladin) Like in my first post \i said some ppl would look at it like I had three heads but it dose work out I just need to know how to finish this thing off once I get there

I will look into the divine crusader ( what book? )

Divine Crusader is in the same book you found Divine Oracle (right before it in fact) and Pios Templar. Perhaps that's the only reason I even mentioned it.

I guess I wouldn't be so worried about "Evasion" at higher levels. You could/should have other defenses against against the thing that require REF saves for half; even if you don't you should keep in mind that all Evasion typically does is protect you from hitpoint damage which may seem important but there are far worse things to worry about. I'll even point out that an "Evasion" style effect is all or nothing so you still need to make the save for it to do any good; Improved Evasion is actually something I see as more valuable as it can always reduce the damage a character takes.

Ultimately there are a LOT of ways to play "the main tank and the main melee attacker" and depending on how optized you want to be some will suggest ideas that really don't fight all that well. Although far from the "most optimal" I'd consider something with Paladin3/Fighter2/PT4 but just where to go from there depends on what else I'm looking for.

#10
Krusk
Dec 16, 2012 16:22:28 How does your DM feel about retraining rules in PHB2? It allows you to swap feats and stuff chosen previously around. I don't recall if it lets you swap class levels, but it might.

Evasion, Mettle and Fortification is nice, but I wouldn't be too satisfied that your are immune to evertything quite yet. You still have to make the save in the first place, and crits aren't all that common.

If you are "The main tank and melee attacker" you should probably look into a big reach weapon and trip attacks or two handed power attack charges. if you don't mind, I'm curious what feats you have and plan to take. If power attack isn't on there, you might want to reconsider.
#11
StevenO
Dec 16, 2012 16:26:19 If you want to "flavor" a character I'll just tell you that is all in how you play/portray the character. A great roleplayer really should be able to take a character sheet that they were just handed and play that character is a couple different ways. Oh, the abilities may all be the same but that doesn't mean they need to be described the same when used and it certainly doesn't mean the character's motivations are always the same. I'll also mention that while things have names you don't need to let those names "define" anything (well except when needed for a prereq) provided you can make the mechanics work; Power Attack is usually described as some "wild swing" that is less accurate because more effort is being put into it but it could also be described as someone placing a very accurate attack (causing more damage) but having it be harder to get through.
#12
Kingofswing
Dec 16, 2012 16:29:53 Yeah Krusk there is no PA Ihave done the Ultra charger before and was band from ever doing that kind of char again as they were affraid of the \frenzy \berserker killing eveyone and the dm did not even let me stack frenzy and rage together he said they are the some

so this is what I have right now

Lv1 Weapon focus (bastard sword)    Human bonus feat ( skill focus religion)
Lv3 True beleaver
Lv6 Extra smiting
Lv9 Battle blessing
Lv12 Melee Weapon Mastery

Bonus feat from PT Weapon specialization

#13
StevenO
Dec 16, 2012 16:33:46 Where's the WP(Bastard Sword) in there or are you only using it as a two-handed martial weapon?

#14
Kingofswing
Dec 16, 2012 16:34:50 Correct it is being used as a THW
#15
StevenO
Dec 16, 2012 16:42:42
Correct it is being used as a THW

That then begs the question, "why aren't you using a Greatsword instead?" If you try using the BS one-handed you are no-longer proficient with it which means an attack penalty and you'll also lose the weapon specific feats.

I guess that is your "diety's favorite weapon" which does make me wonder a little about some choices available. To put it another way does the BS need to be the Deity's favorite weapon?

#16
StevenO
Dec 16, 2012 17:01:54 The Sorcadin, or Soradin as I'd call it, is something I've looked at since DoF came out. I had even figured out a "filler" class after 3.5 came out to deal with the moving of Divine Grace in Paladin that would have let a Paladin1/Sorcerer4/newclass4/SS3/SE8 end up with a +16 BAB and 18th-level spellcasting before Abjurant Champion came along.

So are you saying that a game needs access to Psionics, Incarnum, and Tome of Magic to be fun? Wow, some people had a lot time to spend gaming if you exausted all the options and needed to move on to those.

For what it's worth I will agree that "salvaging" builds can be very difficult. Of course the higher the level the harder it can be as there is less potential space to work with and their are more choices that were already made for good or ill.
#17
Kingofswing
Dec 16, 2012 17:02:14 No he has heard of them because I bring them to his attention all the time he just dose not like what I can do with them and has gone and forbid them I'm not new to OP but I was not looking for OP but was looking for hard to kill. That is for sure because every time I make something that is OP he kills it off on me had a duskblade duel weapons with 1 spell storing weapon and high crit with the crits and the spells in 1 full round did close to 1000 damage the next battle he was killed off ( cheese factor I think but still he killed it off) last game he tried to say that wind wall would stop a person from running in to attack when it clearly states projectiles so I have to hide my OP builds thought this would be one way of doing it. \but \i must hae been wrong from the sounds of it
#18
Krusk
Dec 16, 2012 17:33:16 What we are saying is that your build (and the builds you are referencing) objectively aren't particulalrly good.

I find with optimization it is best to keep things simple and within reason for the DM. A druid 20 who summons some stuff occasionally is tons better than generally any fighter build, even if he takes all sorts of obscure feats wit questionable rulings. The fighter with questionable rules is more likely to be banned.

My goal with suggestions is to both power you up, and make it more straight forward so it passes that DM sniff test. If he smells cheese he won't let it fly. Be up front and honest on what you plan to do and your abilities. It might be a good idea to instruct him on decent counters to your character. "I have a really weak will save, illusions might totally screw me over" for example.

Take power attack, but don't take frenzied berserker. Its a dumb concept (I kill the party) and gets DMs very worried every time they hear its going to be used. "Immune to damage! Very low chance of killing the party? Not on my watch!".

I recomend you ask your DM for some sample builds of power levels he is comfortable with. Then you know your limits and can make something that fits them. This greatly lowers the chance he kills you off, objects to the character, or just dislikes it.

(also why not a greatsword?)
#19
Kingofswing
Dec 16, 2012 17:43:29 It was for the deity I have to be LN and my deity is Helm from forgotten realms and for PT you have to have focus on his weapon which is the bastard sword I was thinking that maybe going into exotic weapon master my help a little but I will need to get the feats first needed so that means fighter to me and that means grrrrrr kinda back to the normal but I still have not given up yet.... Is there a \PRclass that extends the padin spells like the chord dose for the bard something like that would be great I might be able to swing the DM into allowing it to count for the PT spell list
#20
StevenO
Dec 16, 2012 18:00:32 Technically, anything that improves divine spellcasting can improve a Paladin's spellcasting. Of course the problem there is that Paladin spellcasting isn't all that great to start with. A Bard may not have the best spellcasting either but it is certainly a few steps up on the class priority list then the spells a Paladin gets are. It requires Mounted Combat and Ride-by Attack feats but the Hospitaler PrC (CDiv) will advance your divine spellcasting 7/10 levels and has a full BAB; it has a few more things but really just looks a lot like Paladin does except without the LG requirement.
#21
Kingofswing
Dec 16, 2012 18:49:31 OK in a nutshell

Had to make a new char level starting was 10 took pali PT and DO to get mettle and evasion in heavy armor took heavy fort for armor enchantment. DM gave me oppition of going for holy avenger or never going for it. So I went for it. We are now level 12 with the run down we have been talking about of Pali5 PT5 and DO2 ( That is where I sit right now )

Was going to go Pali5 PT8 DO2 +x the x is what I was looking for

If you have ideas at pali5 PT5 DO2 I can work from there on if not I will be looking at the above run

I hope this clears thing up for you
#22
Kingofswing
Dec 16, 2012 19:54:33 I would agree with that but that is where my DM in is ultimat wisdom dose not allow TOB or anything from eberron so I'm very stuck in that much so I have to think of other things that is why I came here for advice

I guess we could work Pali 5 PT3 and DO2 since the other 2 levels have not come in yet ( if that will help I can do that )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Kingofswing Dec 16, 2012 13:27:24	Hello all I need a little help in how to finish this build off that Iam working on Basic layout Race Human Class Paladin 5 Prestige Class 1 Pious Templar 5 Prestige class 2 Divine Oracle 2 My plans are to go Pal 5 Templar 8 Oracle 2 This is where I get stuck and can not find anything to compliment this build Now I know some peaple are going to look at this build like I have 3 heads but the run down is this I have Mettle and Evasion in heavy armor plus I have full Paladin casting levels through the through the Templar I have taken the smiting charge from PHB2 and the Blessed Battle from complete champion so I can cast my spells faster Books that are allowed ( well most of them) All the complete books, phb2, miniature, and a few others I can not remember if you can provide a book name and a page number I then can work with it Thanks for thr help
#2 Krusk Dec 16, 2012 13:44:35	What is the end goal? A dude in heavy armor who casts some spells, but mostly just is a melee monster? Cleric 20 probably does that better. I didn't look at the prestige classes, but you can probably still qualify for them as a cleric, and be better still. Cleric 5/ templar 8/ oracle 2 or something. Grab divine metamagic, and persist some awesome spells. If you aren't high enough level to persist a ton of them, devote 1 round of any long fight to buffing.
#3 StevenO Dec 16, 2012 14:43:37	As Krusk mentions we really need to know what your goals are. I'd also say that knowing more of your build could be helpful if we're just supposed to "know" what that is. I see one thing in this build I'll flat out say is poor and that is your choice to go into Divine Oracle. Maybe you're keeding your Knowledge(religion) up for a good reason but the extra feat to enter DO is really something I question especially considering the martial hit you take (1/2 BAB and only d6 HD) for the class. For some reason I think you may be better off going into Divine Crusader provided you can find the right domain.
#4 draco1119 Dec 16, 2012 14:52:02	Pious Templar also isn't very good. It DOES NOT increase your spellcasting (without a houserule); it provides its own, which is only 6-7/10 (or, in your case, 3/5). Mettle is good, but you're better off (if possible) playing as a Crusader (Tome of Battle). It's a better version of the paladin, and gets Mettle as a base class.
#5 StevenO Dec 16, 2012 15:18:50	I may actually agree about PT not being a great 3.5 class. Unless you get a relic to play with True Believer is a wasted feat (Endurance in 3.0 wasn't much better) and as mentioned the spellcasting overlaps a paladins and doesn't stack. I still might look at it for four levels but then again I'm not a "super optimizer" who is all about the power a class can bring.
#6 Kingofswing Dec 16, 2012 15:50:32	Ok to fill it a little more I guess the char is to be the main tank and the main melee attacker I went with oracle to get the evasion in heavy armor other then that I would have not taken it second the pious is where I get my spells from I lose 1 BAB and will end with a BAB of 19 if I go with full BAB class after this but I need something that will help along the paladin part ( gray guard is out the DM says that a paladin would never do that kind of thing and is not allowing it even with me being a LN paladin) Like in my first post \i said some ppl would look at it like I had three heads but it dose work out I just need to know how to finish this thing off once I get there I will look into the divine crusader ( what book? ) and thanks for all the help up till here
#7 StevenO Dec 16, 2012 16:01:55	CJ, are you trying to make everybody hate you? I'll admit I was a bit harsh with your ealier post as it was actually remarkably polite for you but there are different levels of optimization. Complete Scoundrel?? Never saw it. I'll also point out that we really don't know just what the OP is trying to do. Both Krusk and I have asked for something more specific. Divine Crusader is not a class I even look at that often but if he wants a big full time BAB and some powerful spells that synergize with CHA it can work. I know that if I had to play at the highest possible levels of optimization, which probably means something heavy in Wizard, Cleric, or Druid or something very complex, I'll just throw all my books in a nice big fire because that takes the fun out of it.
#8 Kingofswing Dec 16, 2012 16:16:07	Yeah just looked at crusader and it dose not fit the bill it may have if I had gone with it before taking PT. See since I hate playing LG char I opted for the LN paladin and that is giving me very few options to go. I couls just opt out and go Fighter of keep going with Pali but if there is a way to avoid that and give the char a little more flavor I would love it. Since he has Mettle and easion in heavy armor with prestion sense or something like that and he is wairing heavy fortification armor he is almost immune to everything but because of his starting level being 10 and going up 2 levels as of the last game day his armor is not that great. He has his avenger which the DM made me deside to quest after in the first game or lose the oppertunity to go for it. So you see I have placed in the middle of this crap and had to come up with something quick this is what I got so now I need to fix it as much as I can but I do like the flavor of this char just need to know how to finish this thing off so I can set this in stone and worry about playing Thanks again for any ideas you guys can come up with
#9 StevenO Dec 16, 2012 16:17:43	Ok to fill it a little more I guess the char is to be the main tank and the main melee attacker I went with oracle to get the evasion in heavy armor other then that I would have not taken it second the pious is where I get my spells from I lose 1 BAB and will end with a BAB of 19 if I go with full BAB class after this but I need something that will help along the paladin part ( gray guard is out the DM says that a paladin would never do that kind of thing and is not allowing it even with me being a LN paladin) Like in my first post \i said some ppl would look at it like I had three heads but it dose work out I just need to know how to finish this thing off once I get there I will look into the divine crusader ( what book? ) Divine Crusader is in the same book you found Divine Oracle (right before it in fact) and Pios Templar. Perhaps that's the only reason I even mentioned it. I guess I wouldn't be so worried about "Evasion" at higher levels. You could/should have other defenses against against the thing that require REF saves for half; even if you don't you should keep in mind that all Evasion typically does is protect you from hitpoint damage which may seem important but there are far worse things to worry about. I'll even point out that an "Evasion" style effect is all or nothing so you still need to make the save for it to do any good; Improved Evasion is actually something I see as more valuable as it can always reduce the damage a character takes. Ultimately there are a LOT of ways to play "the main tank and the main melee attacker" and depending on how optized you want to be some will suggest ideas that really don't fight all that well. Although far from the "most optimal" I'd consider something with Paladin3/Fighter2/PT4 but just where to go from there depends on what else I'm looking for.
#10 Krusk Dec 16, 2012 16:22:28	How does your DM feel about retraining rules in PHB2? It allows you to swap feats and stuff chosen previously around. I don't recall if it lets you swap class levels, but it might. Evasion, Mettle and Fortification is nice, but I wouldn't be too satisfied that your are immune to evertything quite yet. You still have to make the save in the first place, and crits aren't all that common. If you are "The main tank and melee attacker" you should probably look into a big reach weapon and trip attacks or two handed power attack charges. if you don't mind, I'm curious what feats you have and plan to take. If power attack isn't on there, you might want to reconsider.
#11 StevenO Dec 16, 2012 16:26:19	If you want to "flavor" a character I'll just tell you that is all in how you play/portray the character. A great roleplayer really should be able to take a character sheet that they were just handed and play that character is a couple different ways. Oh, the abilities may all be the same but that doesn't mean they need to be described the same when used and it certainly doesn't mean the character's motivations are always the same. I'll also mention that while things have names you don't need to let those names "define" anything (well except when needed for a prereq) provided you can make the mechanics work; Power Attack is usually described as some "wild swing" that is less accurate because more effort is being put into it but it could also be described as someone placing a very accurate attack (causing more damage) but having it be harder to get through.
#12 Kingofswing Dec 16, 2012 16:29:53	Yeah Krusk there is no PA Ihave done the Ultra charger before and was band from ever doing that kind of char again as they were affraid of the \frenzy \berserker killing eveyone and the dm did not even let me stack frenzy and rage together he said they are the some so this is what I have right now Lv1 Weapon focus (bastard sword) Human bonus feat ( skill focus religion) Lv3 True beleaver Lv6 Extra smiting Lv9 Battle blessing Lv12 Melee Weapon Mastery Bonus feat from PT Weapon specialization
#13 StevenO Dec 16, 2012 16:33:46	Where's the WP(Bastard Sword) in there or are you only using it as a two-handed martial weapon?
#14 Kingofswing Dec 16, 2012 16:34:50	Correct it is being used as a THW
#15 StevenO Dec 16, 2012 16:42:42	Correct it is being used as a THW That then begs the question, "why aren't you using a Greatsword instead?" If you try using the BS one-handed you are no-longer proficient with it which means an attack penalty and you'll also lose the weapon specific feats. I guess that is your "diety's favorite weapon" which does make me wonder a little about some choices available. To put it another way does the BS need to be the Deity's favorite weapon?
#16 StevenO Dec 16, 2012 17:01:54	The Sorcadin, or Soradin as I'd call it, is something I've looked at since DoF came out. I had even figured out a "filler" class after 3.5 came out to deal with the moving of Divine Grace in Paladin that would have let a Paladin1/Sorcerer4/newclass4/SS3/SE8 end up with a +16 BAB and 18th-level spellcasting before Abjurant Champion came along. So are you saying that a game needs access to Psionics, Incarnum, and Tome of Magic to be fun? Wow, some people had a lot time to spend gaming if you exausted all the options and needed to move on to those. For what it's worth I will agree that "salvaging" builds can be very difficult. Of course the higher the level the harder it can be as there is less potential space to work with and their are more choices that were already made for good or ill.
#17 Kingofswing Dec 16, 2012 17:02:14	No he has heard of them because I bring them to his attention all the time he just dose not like what I can do with them and has gone and forbid them I'm not new to OP but I was not looking for OP but was looking for hard to kill. That is for sure because every time I make something that is OP he kills it off on me had a duskblade duel weapons with 1 spell storing weapon and high crit with the crits and the spells in 1 full round did close to 1000 damage the next battle he was killed off ( cheese factor I think but still he killed it off) last game he tried to say that wind wall would stop a person from running in to attack when it clearly states projectiles so I have to hide my OP builds thought this would be one way of doing it. \but \i must hae been wrong from the sounds of it
#18 Krusk Dec 16, 2012 17:33:16	What we are saying is that your build (and the builds you are referencing) objectively aren't particulalrly good. I find with optimization it is best to keep things simple and within reason for the DM. A druid 20 who summons some stuff occasionally is tons better than generally any fighter build, even if he takes all sorts of obscure feats wit questionable rulings. The fighter with questionable rules is more likely to be banned. My goal with suggestions is to both power you up, and make it more straight forward so it passes that DM sniff test. If he smells cheese he won't let it fly. Be up front and honest on what you plan to do and your abilities. It might be a good idea to instruct him on decent counters to your character. "I have a really weak will save, illusions might totally screw me over" for example. Take power attack, but don't take frenzied berserker. Its a dumb concept (I kill the party) and gets DMs very worried every time they hear its going to be used. "Immune to damage! Very low chance of killing the party? Not on my watch!". I recomend you ask your DM for some sample builds of power levels he is comfortable with. Then you know your limits and can make something that fits them. This greatly lowers the chance he kills you off, objects to the character, or just dislikes it. (also why not a greatsword?)
#19 Kingofswing Dec 16, 2012 17:43:29	It was for the deity I have to be LN and my deity is Helm from forgotten realms and for PT you have to have focus on his weapon which is the bastard sword I was thinking that maybe going into exotic weapon master my help a little but I will need to get the feats first needed so that means fighter to me and that means grrrrrr kinda back to the normal but I still have not given up yet.... Is there a \PRclass that extends the padin spells like the chord dose for the bard something like that would be great I might be able to swing the DM into allowing it to count for the PT spell list
#20 StevenO Dec 16, 2012 18:00:32	Technically, anything that improves divine spellcasting can improve a Paladin's spellcasting. Of course the problem there is that Paladin spellcasting isn't all that great to start with. A Bard may not have the best spellcasting either but it is certainly a few steps up on the class priority list then the spells a Paladin gets are. It requires Mounted Combat and Ride-by Attack feats but the Hospitaler PrC (CDiv) will advance your divine spellcasting 7/10 levels and has a full BAB; it has a few more things but really just looks a lot like Paladin does except without the LG requirement.
#21 Kingofswing Dec 16, 2012 18:49:31	OK in a nutshell Had to make a new char level starting was 10 took pali PT and DO to get mettle and evasion in heavy armor took heavy fort for armor enchantment. DM gave me oppition of going for holy avenger or never going for it. So I went for it. We are now level 12 with the run down we have been talking about of Pali5 PT5 and DO2 ( That is where I sit right now ) Was going to go Pali5 PT8 DO2 +x the x is what I was looking for If you have ideas at pali5 PT5 DO2 I can work from there on if not I will be looking at the above run I hope this clears thing up for you
#22 Kingofswing Dec 16, 2012 19:54:33	I would agree with that but that is where my DM in is ultimat wisdom dose not allow TOB or anything from eberron so I'm very stuck in that much so I have to think of other things that is why I came here for advice I guess we could work Pali 5 PT3 and DO2 since the other 2 levels have not come in yet ( if that will help I can do that )