Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 axator Jan 13, 2009 16:37:57	Hey folks My friends and I are starting a new D&D game soon and I have decided I want to play a sneaky melee character. All books are ok to use, but we decided against using flaws for once. This is what I had in mind at first: Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 8 / Fighter 4 / Invisible Blade 5 Human using Craven, Daring Outlaw and Knowledge Devotion to boost my damage. However, while I was digging around for feats that might help improve the damage output, I decided I wanted some magic versatility aswell, just to help boost damage and stealth. So, I started playing around with the build, and I think I succeeded in improving the character on pretty much all fronts: Rogue 2 / Swashbuckler 7 / Focused Specialist (Illusionist) 2 / Unseen Seer 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 BAB 17 Caster level: 11 (5th level spells) (17 due to Abj. Cha.) Sneak Attack: 7D6+20 Prohibited Schools: Enchantment, Evocation & Necromancy 28 Point Buy: Str 8 Dex 16 (20) Con 13 Int 17 (18) Wis 8 Cha 8 Advance Dex: 8th, 12th, 15th & 18th Advance Int: 4th Human.. Knowledge Devotion 1 Rogue 1.. Craven 2 Rogue 2 3 Swashbuckler 1.. Daring Outlaw 4 FS (Conjurar) 1 5 Swashbuckler 2 6 Unseen Seer 1.. Two-Weapon Fighting 7 Swashbuckler 3 8 Unseen Seer 2 9 FS (Conjurar) 2.. Combat Casting 10 Abjurant Champion 1 11 Abjurant Champion 2 12 Abjurant Champion 3.. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 13 Abjurant Champion 4 14 Abjurant Champion 5 15 Swashbuckler 4.. Arcane Strike 16 Swashbuckler 5 17 Swashbuckler 6 18 Swashbuckler 7.. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting 19 Unseen Seer 3 20 Unseen Seer 4 Swashbuckler let's me use int for damage and dex for to hit (Weapon Finesse), reducing MAD, and with Daring Outlaw I still improve Sneak Attack. Also, it's a full BAB class. Spellsword and Abjurant Champion are mainly there to improve caster level and BAB equally, but nets him some really good special abilities at the same time. I decided against using his magic for damage, but mainly for buffing melee damage (Arcane Strike, Greater Mighty Wallop), stealth (Gr. Invisibility, Deflection etc.) and perhaps a little battlefield control (fogs, grease and whatnot). Knowledge Devotion isn't fully optimized, but should net him +2 to hit and damage pretty much all time, which I think is fine for one feat. I know you could propably make him more powerfull by focusing on magic first and stealth/melee second, but I really wanted to make him melee first with a bit of magic as versatility. Also, I considered making him a Focused Specialist (conjurar) and taking Immediate Magic: Abrupt Jaunt, just to get him in and out of combat faster, and it might be a better option, but for now, he's an Illusionist. So, wielding 2 light maces he should be doing some pretty serious damage: 1D6+4+7D6+20+5D4 = 37-92/per attack, sneaking attacking and using a 5th level spell for Arcane Strike. This is without Greater Mighty Wallop and Greater Magic Weapon, which would boost it to: 4D6+4+4+7D6+20+5D4 = 44-116/per attack, and this is without magic items which might increase damage further. Any ideas to improve him? Edit: Already found an error, forgot to add in Knowledge Devotion for damage, but since it's a non-constant just leave it out of the calculations. Edit II: Changed Spellsword 1 to Focused Specialist 2 (thanks for pointing out my error Volatris). Changed Specialization to Conjurar for Abrupt Jaunt. Also, forgot to mention Wraithstrike, which would ensure all attacks would hit most of the time.
#2 oprick Jan 13, 2009 16:47:12	i notice that you're looking for 20 lvls, but there is a threat called <10 duelist challenge that has a lot of this type of stuff floating around. A few points: -using the UA fighter variant with Sneak Attack may let you get into PRCs earlier. -how are you going to get your sneak attack conditions? just invis? -if you're already using two light maces, consider the lightning mace feat from CW
#3 phaedrusxy Jan 13, 2009 16:48:38	Once you start adding caster levels, it's hard not to do anything but add more caster levels, IMO. :D You might look at using the Suel Arcanamach for your casting class, as it offers fast progression for wizard spells from four schools that mostly center around buffs and trickery. You can find the handbook for that class in the Handy Links thread at the top of the forum. It is Cha based spontaneous casting, with all the benefits and drawbacks that come with it. It mixes very well with Abjurant Champion, too.
#4 NiteCyper Jan 13, 2009 16:54:30	One of the 'Ten Commandments of Optimization' edicts dictates that you shouldn't lose any caster-levels if you're playing a spell-caster. Have you seen the 'Factotum' base-class from 'Dungeonscape'? It is a very INT-synergetic class. Get the 'Arcane Stunt' Swashbuckler alternate class-feature (ACF) from Complete Mage. It is also INT-synergetic. I also recommend the 'Abrupt Jaunt' Wizard ACF. It is also INT-synergetic. As far as I can see, I can't spot your reliable source for nailing sneak-attack damage. You said you'd be using Greater Invisibility, Deflection, etc. but I don't think you'll be getting it early, and using it for every chance you need sneak-attack damage. Rogue 3 is a better break-off point than Rogue 2, I think. Check out some of the Illusionist ACFs from UA. It helps the 'Hide' skill. Whisper Gnomes get access to the 'Trivial Knowledge' feat (roll twice, take the better roll on Knowledge checks), Beguilers are the ultimate sneaky race from Shining South (for more
#5 axator Jan 13, 2009 17:15:25	Thanks for the fast replies guys. @Oprick -I'll look into the UA fighter variant, thanks for pointing it out. -I was planning on using flanking (tumbling, using abrupt jaunt or both to get into position) and various inv. spells to get reliable sneak attack damage, but I may be missing something? -The main reason for using two light maces are weapon finesse and greater mighty wallop. Light weapons and bludgeoning. @PhaedrusXY -Suel Arcanamach is a good class for this, but it's Cha focused, creating MAD, so I'd rather stick with the wizard. @NiteCyper -I know spell-casting is always the more powerfull route, but I WANT to play a melee character, it's as simple as that. ;) -I have already looked into the Factotum which would help a great deal with Knowledge Devotion and it has a bunch of INT-based abilities, but the main reasons I left it out are: I only have 20 levels for the build, spells/day are very limited and most of the class abilities are x/day uses. But it's definitely a good option. -I'll definitely be taking Arcane Stunt Swashbuckler, thanks for pointing that out. -Regarding reliable sneak attack, look above. -I know Rogue 3 may be better than Rogue 2, but Swashbuckler 6 is worse still and I was mainly aiming for Rogue+Swashbuckler 9 purely for Sneak Attack. -I would rather stick with a race that grants a bonus feat due to feats already being very limited in this build, but I see your points, and will consider them. -Draconic Knowledge is one of the reasons I like Knowledge Devotion so much, but I decided I'd rather have 5th level spells than a handfull of least invocations.
#6 jenos Jan 13, 2009 17:39:31	What abilities of factotum are x/day? Inspiration points reset every encounter, so you have a couple uses per fight. That being said, I don't think factotum would be a good fit, considering you'd need to burn a decent number of feats on fonts to really get a lot of use out of the levels, and if you're going factotum you really should take it to at least 8 for cunning surge. I'm trying to figure out how to work more feats into your build, because if you can nab lightning maces that can potentially lead to some more damage(with two maces, keen on each, you have plenty of chances to try and proc it, and the precision damage should reapply with every hit). Factotum 8/Swashbuckler 10/Rogue 2 Rogue 1 Craven, Knowledge Devotion Rogue 2 Swashbuckler 1 Daring Outlaw Swashbuckler 2 Swashbuckler 3 Weapon Finesse Factotum 1 Two weapon fighting Factotum 2 Factotum 3 Factotum 4 Improved Two weapon fighting Factotum 5 Factotum 6 Factotum 7 Font of Inspiration Factotum 8 Swashbuckler 4 Swashbuckler 5 Greater Two Weapon Fighting Swashbuckler 6 Swashbuckler 7 Swashbuckler 8 Font of Inspiration Swashbuckler 9 Swashbuckler 10 Not sure if I like the lessened fonts in the build, but that could work. However, its more of a high level build, seeing as you only have 3d6 sneak attack while you go into factotum(Though factotum has plenty of useful abilities). Still has 17 BAB, and cunning surge.
#7 axator Jan 13, 2009 17:46:53	@Jenos Yeah sorry, not uses/day, but uses/fight. Sure it helps a great deal, but it's still very limited unless you take a lot of font feats, as you said. Also, Lightning Maces would be a great boost to damage, but requires getting Combat Reflexes and Weapon Focus and other than using Flaws, I don't really see how it's going to happen without sacrificing other (just as useful) abilities.
#8 volatris Jan 13, 2009 18:18:53	Consider a swiftblade, to compare to your gish that is mainly self-buffing with 5th level spells. Also, I don't think you have the armor proficiencies to take Spellsword when you plan in that build you posted.
#9 axator Jan 13, 2009 18:32:17	@Volatris Right you are. I could swap Spellsword for Focused Specialist 2, only losing the ignore spell failure 10% and +2 fortitude save.
#10 Hideous_Phidias Jan 13, 2009 19:13:13	I do think you are going to have to move Daring outlaw to six level, you may want to look at the Prerequisites again.
#11 playswithfire Jan 13, 2009 19:30:03	Consider a two-level dip in swordsage (1st level at level 5, the second at level 8) and taking the feats Carmendine Monk and Shadow Blade. You can make it easier to flank or get more sneak attack with the stances, 7 maneuvers, INT to AC in light armor and DEX to damage with shadow hand weapons. May be hard with no flaws.
#12 oprick Jan 13, 2009 19:33:48	you could look into carmendine monk or kung-fu genius for INT to AC, and go aescetic rogue. reduced BAB, but better saves, and you can flurry- which combines nicely with the abrupt jaunt for a full attack. you could still mighty whallop your fists, and disregard light maces. I mean, anything more than four levels of monk and you're doing better base damage than with light maces. for swiftblade, if you go that route, dodge and mobility can be pieced together through fighting styles and bonus feats. plus, INT to initiative never hurt anyone
#13 Hideous_Phidias Jan 13, 2009 20:49:35	I think your build need to be more on point. You need to decide which type of character you want to be and build tord it. We see a lot of these types of build on this board, people want to be a party on to themselves. It really is to bad you have some good ideas, but need to focus. You said you want to be a sneaky melee guy cool, and it also seems that you want have some magic to also a good idea but you are going about it badly. Try this for sneaky melee (Well more of a sneaky sword wand user) Rogue8/Swashbuckler12 Feats: 1)Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, (Flaw):Telling blow 3) Two weapon fighting, 6) Daring outlaw, 9) wandstrike 12)Improved Two Weapon fighting 15) 18) With is simple Daring Outlaw/Able Learner build at the end you will have a BAB 18, Fort 10 Ref 10 and Wil 6 and 12/20 d10 for hitdie. You will also have all the sneak attack of a full rogue and all the grace and dodge of swashbuckler. I spent two days hunting very rogue and fighter prestige out there, there is no better BAB/hitpoint/sneak attack combo out there. I have played this build to 17th level it was one of the best thought out and versatile character I have ever seen in 20 years of D&D You will be a god in combat but you can also be the party rogue and still have room for role play skills like diplomacy and gather in formation. Don't just be thinking about combat and feats, use your skills too. Take rogue first as a high int human your skill points will always be high. Skill you are going to want to max out always; Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open lock, Search and Use Magic Device. Other skills that may come in handy and worth putting point in to are Bluff, Spot, Sense Motives, and Slit of Hand. The thing is you can keep you rogue skills even when you are taking Swashbuckler levels, by using the feat Able Learner and the rule on feats from the PHB on page 62. (That I posted at the end of this thread.) The idea I have for you is simple be a two hand fighter that uses a sword in one hand and a wand in the other. The best sword for you would be one with a good threat rage 18-20 with keen on it. (Rapier, Scimitar or Elven-Longblade) The Feat Telling Blow allows you to use sneak attack when you critical. So you that a start for your damage. Find feats and magic items that allow and help you to critical and sneak attack thing you normally would not. (Undead and Constructs) The tactic you should learn to use is Sneak around open with the spell from wand at range then move in for the kill. Remember weapon like spells can have sneak attack too as long as they are with in 30ft of you. Once you kill the first guy attack again with the wand and fallow with the sword if need. Always wear a Buckler too, the armor class from it will for this type of character because of the light armor only. PHB page 62 Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level +3.
#14 emy Jan 13, 2009 21:01:29	(stuff) I'm trying to figure out how to work more feats into your build, because if you can nab lightning maces that can potentially lead to some more damage(with two maces, keen on each, you have plenty of chances to try and proc it, and the precision damage should reapply with every hit). (more stuff) Surely by keen maces you mean keen aptitude gnome quickrazors.
#15 NiteCyper Jan 13, 2009 22:58:02	The thing is you can keep you rogue skills even when you are taking Swashbuckler levels, by using the feat Able Learner and the rule on feats from the PHB on page 62. (That I posted at the end of this thread.) ... PHB page 62 Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level +3. iluvoo. In accordance with this, a one level dip in Factotum would be optimal. If you're feeling bold, you could take 2 more levels for more INT-synergy including INT to your Hide checks. Another reason to go the path of HiPS. Surely by keen maces you mean keen aptitude gnome quickrazors. Kaorti? Boost AC further with a Monk's Belt or some other way to gain (the Monk's) WIS-mod as a bonus to AC (Kung fu Genius from DragMag or Carmendine Monk from CoV) Re: what you said about my Factotum advice: I know what you mean. It's a class-option generally more optimal if it is taken as (one of the) main parts of the build. Re: what you said about the DFA-dip: Oh, you wouldn't be getting a handful of invocations. With one level dip, you'd gain one invocation. Re: Hideous Phidias, does Wandstrike allow you to apply sneak-attack damage to its weapon-like spell? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61195 http://nihal.it.vu.nl/~pascal/DnD/Data/feats/f_1374.html My favorite method of combat is using HiPS, then doing anything else. Check out the 'Dark' template and Collar of Umbral Metaphorphosis which are in Tome of Magic. Maybe aim for a one level dip in the 'Master of Masks' PrC from Complete Scoundrel for the Gladiator Mask for a ton of proficiencies. Check out the 'Hit-and-Run' Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark for DEX to damage. Also check out the 'Fukimi Bari' (Mouth Darts/Needles) from A&EG. Shoot 3 for every one normal-attack. They only deal 1 damage, but add sneak-attack and you're good to go! Generally, I'd aim more for my own character's survival than being a DPR. For example, there are an infinite amount of baddies, but only one you. If you want to tank, maybe a Fighter/Crusader/etc. should be played instead. One of the things to be realized is that, being the skill-monkey, you might as well go out on your mastery of skill-checks. Iaijutsu Focus, Use Magic Device, Hide, Bluff, and all that jazz. Another reason to start with a level of Swordsage is that, according to the RAW, you get (6+INT mod)*6 skill-points at first level. Beguiler grants +2 INT and +6 DEX for LA +0, so you can combine the DEX-bonus with the Shadow Blade feat. +2 INT is the highest INT bonus you can get at first level, generally, to combine it with the Swordsage's (broken) skill-points. Hey, there's also dipping Crusader and taking Martial Study once for continuous-expenditures of the Cloak of Deception maneuver. Greater Invisibility at level 3, if you get nothing but initator levels. Martial Monk variant from DragMag gains Fighter bonus feats instead of Monk bonus feats. The second level even nets you Evasion! Martial Study is a Fighter bonus feat. Unfortunately, neither Carmendine Monk nor Kung fu Genius are Fighter bonus feats. If you decide to take the Changeling Rogue substitution-level at first level for (10+INT mod)*4 skill-points, if you consider the adaptation text from the web preview of the Chameleon PrC as qualifying, as a Changeling, you gain access to the Able Learner feat. Maybe go crazy with the 'Warshaper' PrC or 'Racial Emulation' feat. Gray/Fire/Sun/Silvanesti Elves grant +2 INT and gain access to such emmy-award-winning PrCs as 'Eternal Blade' (ToB) and 'Champion of Corellon Larethian'. Purchase now, and you'll also gain access to the 'Faerie Mysteries Initiate' feat from DragMag that replaces CON with INT for determining HP. Now you can tank! Check out Tleilaxu_Ghola's 'Feral Dreadlord' which I think is located in the Tome of Battle Build Compendium. Check out DrObviousSo's 'Dar(r)ing outlaw build to kick' (includes Swordsage) in SHCOL. For more feats, check out 'magical locations' (Complete Mage & others I don't know) and 'abyssal feat swap' (in my sig). P.S. I was planning to add more onto my last post by I was posting from a school computer, and they have problems posting on these forums sometimes.
#16 lormador Jan 14, 2009 5:04:58	The Beguiler from Shining South resembles an oversized mouse, and it's an Improved Familiar option. I'm not so sure it's safe to recommend it as a PC race: it's Level Adjustment entry reads +0 (cohort). Sneaky melee can be done several ways. Rogue/Swashbuckler is one, and I like that 8/12 build up there, because it's elegant and simple. The Factotum build also has this advantage. Swordsage will do well all by itself. If you are really concerned about cutting things up, lead it into Crinti Shadow Marauder (Shining South) and start shadow pouncing. This is probably too powerful to see actual play, but I'd consider it the top end of what it means to be "sneaky and melee."
#17 axator Jan 14, 2009 9:34:35	Phew, that's a lot of information to go through, and I see a lot of good advice. I think I may have to ask our DM to allow flaws afterall, it would definitely allow me to improve the build alot. Doing so would also allow me to drop human for a more sneaky race. I don't see how focusing the build towards melee only will improve it, the spellcasting ability is only there to improve stealth, damage and survival, not to also be the party GOD. I don't want to be the skill monkey, I'll need high Hide, Move Silently and Knowledge skill scores among a few others, and another guy in the group wants to fill out the skill monkey role, so I won't have to. Swordsage and/or Monk levels could work very well, and I'll have to read up on those. Thanks for the advice guys, I'll post more when and if I find a better build.
#18 phaedrusxy Jan 14, 2009 15:18:59	Great idea on the Greater Mighty Whallop light maces. That beats the pants off of using dual short swords. :D
#19 hoffen Jan 14, 2009 15:58:14	Have been toying with a dervish/shadowdancer on and off. Im not sure if this is good for a optimizers perspective, but dervish/shadowdancer kind of build alwyas seemed nice to me as a melee sneaky character. If multiclass xp is a problem for you I guess this isn't so hot. Here it comes though: Human Ranger 2/Scout 3/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Dervish 3/Shadowdancer 1/Dervish +6/Of-your-Choice 1 1 Ranger Dodge, Mobility, Track 2 Ranger Two-Weapon Fighting 3 Scout Weapon Focus (Scimitar) 4 Scout 5 Scout 6 Swashbuckler Swift Hunter, Weapon Finesse 7 Fighter Combat Expertise 8 Fighter Combat Reflexes 9 Dervish Improved Skirmish 10 Dervish 11 Dervish Spring Attack 12 Shadowdancer Improved Critical (Scimitar) (HiPS) 13 Dervish 14 Dervish 15 Dervish Elusive Target 16 Dervish 17 Dervish 18 Dervish Darkstalker 19 Dervish 20 Of-Your-Choice Of-your-Choice could be shadowdancer 2 for the +1 BAB, evasion, darkvision. Could also be taken at earlier levels I guess. Skills would be something like Move Silently, Hide, Survival, Perform (Dance), Tumble Lots of attacks with skirmish (up to 4d6) when dancing, Fair amout of feats, good stealth, and nice defensive abilities. Also choose (ex.) undead and constructs as favorite enemies and you can use skirmish on them. Could be an idea, though this is far far from your builds apparently
#20 NiteCyper Jan 14, 2009 17:49:09	If multiclass xp is a problem for you I guess this isn't so hot. Humans don't get multi-classing XP-penalties. Edit: Ah, Jenos has corrected me in the following post. I'm not so sure it's safe to recommend it as a PC race: it's Level Adjustment entry reads +0 (cohort). It wouldn't be given level-adjustment if it wasn't. Some creatures get LA: -. It's the difference between a blaring green light accompanied by a waving green flag, and a towering stop-sign that looms over you as if with a presence. Worse things have been, outright, denoted as PC race, as you call them. e.g. Shaedlings from MM5. If you are really concerned about cutting things up, lead it into Crinti Shadow Marauder (Shining South) and start shadow pouncing. This is probably too powerful to see actual play, but I'd consider it the top end of what it means to be "sneaky and melee." One of the problems is that its prerequisites include bad feats (Stealthy and Mounted Combat). You get the 'Shadow Pounce' feature by the fifth and last level which the average build, i.e. one that doesn't use Primary Contact + Favored for early entry which could only work if you had an extra feat via Flaws or the Human bonus feat, doesn't get until 10th level. Generally, the 'Shadow-walker' template, it's not like you'll be soloing encounters all day (exception may be applied to using Swordsage). I wouldn't consider it "top end". Check out Alastar's 'Knight of Shadows' in my sig.
#21 jenos Jan 14, 2009 17:55:21	Humans don't get multi-classing XP-penalties. Yes they do. Their highest level class does not count for purposes of checking multiclass penalties, but a Human X 1/Y 2/Z 3/Q 4 will get a penalty of 20% EXP. However in Hoffen's build, there is no multiclass penalty because its highest level base class(Scout) is ignored, and everything else is within 1 level.
#22 lormador Jan 14, 2009 19:55:25	One of the problems is that its prerequisites include bad feats (Stealthy and Mounted Combat). You get the 'Shadow Pounce' feature by the fifth and last level which the average build, i.e. one that doesn't use Primary Contact + Favored for early entry which could only work if you had an extra feat via Flaws or the Human bonus feat, doesn't get until 10th level. Generally, the 'Shadow-walker' template, it's not like you'll be soloing encounters all day (exception may be applied to using Swordsage). I wouldn't consider it "top end". Whether it can be considered top end or not if a function of the levels during which play will occur. A Crinti dark elf running the most basic Swordsage 15 / Shadow Marauder 5 will pick up the second 'teleport through shadows' ability at level 12, giving the second full attack. The third full attack comes at level 16. If the preponderance of the campaign will occur during, or after, these levels (and if the tactic itself is not considered cheesy in the game) then shadow pouncing is viable. The request was for a sneaky melee character: this one has maximum ranks in the stealth skills (I won't dare cite the Stealthy feat as a positive factor), darkvision, and up to three full attacks in a round, all day long too. Calculation could give a comparison of damage output between this type of build and the others. I just didn't feel comfortable allowing a thread entitled 'sneaky melee' get down to page 2 without someone bringing up shadow pouncing. I mean, this is CO. We have a reputation to uphold.
#23 NiteCyper Jan 14, 2009 20:07:17	Wow, I just realized Abrupt Jaunt could be combined with Shadow Pounce. I'm not sure anyone's put those two together before judging from the Google hits. Do you know about the 'Telflammar Shadowlord' PrC from Unapproachable East (P.36(37))? Lastly, where were you when this thread came up? I think Shadow pouncing needed more emphasis.
#24 lormador Jan 15, 2009 5:21:53	Yes, I know about the Teflammer Shadowlord, which would be the optimal entry if getting Shadow-walker was easy to do. Shadow Hand maneuvers can't fulfill the pesky entry requirement, even though they are sufficient to trigger Shadow Pounce. But I know that you know this. Regarding Alaster's build in your sig, how is he getting so many turn attempts? I count only a few instances of Extra Turning in his feat list, one Nightstick, and a decent Charisma score. As for the guy dimension dooring around on his DM-granted blink dog.... well I saw that. I just figure that the first time player whose DM has given him a blink dog to bamf around on doesn't really need much help. This poster started with a pretty nice build, on the other hand.... and since I don't play with flaws either, I know what 'feat squeeze' means. Ha ha, nice catch with Abrupt Jaunt. A build could trade Scribe Scroll for one of the required feats, and memorize Benign Transpositions for extra triggerings. "Need some help, grappled wizard?"
#25 Wyvernhand Jan 15, 2009 7:03:16	As far as who ever recommended the 8/12 Rogue/Swash build, would you either be better off going Rogue4/Swash16 to retain as much BAB as possible, or going Rogue12/Swash8, losing a total of 3 BAB by the end, and about 6 hp, but gaining the str damaging attack and 4x6 skill points? Then again, I like to splash more swordsage in with my daring outlaws, so I probably wouldn't use either unless I was deadset on playing a daring outlaw, and my DM was deadset against using ToB, which would make me a very very sad panda indeed.
#26 Hideous_Phidias Jan 15, 2009 10:55:01	[QUOThttp://forums.gleemax.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=17636970E=Wyvernhand;17636970]As far as who ever recommended the 8/12 Rogue/Swash build, would you either be better off going Rogue4/Swash16 to retain as much BAB as possible, or going Rogue12/Swash8, losing a total of 3 BAB by the end, and about 6 hp, but gaining the str damaging attack and 4x6 skill points? Then again, I like to splash more swordsage in with my daring outlaws, so I probably wouldn't use either unless I was deadset on playing a daring outlaw, and my DM was deadset against using ToB, which would make me a very very sad panda indeed. You should check you math, a rogue at 8 level has BAB of 6 and a swashbuckler at 12 level has a BAB of 12, equaling 18. I only suggested 8 levels in rogue because of improved uncanny dodge. The build works best with only 3 levels in rogue and the rest in swashbuckler with a final BAB of 19, but I like class abilities. I think the next time I play with a build like this it will be a even split, because the rogue special abilities are real nice and worth a loss to BAB of 3 for at least one. The tome of Battle classes are fine if you like the sort of thing. I am not really in to the high anime content in my D&D games. I reminds me to much of Naruto or Dragon Ball Z, with all the fancy names for the moves. As a joke I once told a guy, in my group that if he wanted to use the book he had to call the moves before every attack, taking a full round action to do so. But, really the problem I find with the ToB is not the at it unbalanced or broken. In fact, of all the alternative system books they made it was the best. But the problem is that it was made because people fell magic over shadows the fighter, which in my experience is not true. The thing is the ToB over shadows magic a the fighter classes. If you use the ToB system then you remove the fighter, paladin, ranger, knight, barbarian, hex-blader and a few others from the list of classes available for play because they palein power compared to ToB classes. I think that takes away from the flavor of the game. I personally hate to read on a forum or hear a DM say Core Rule only and mean the DMG, PHB, and MM. What is the point of the other books like the Races, Completes, and the other non- setting books. Why do we buy these things if not to use them. If a DM has not read then then just ask to read the book your friend just bought. Lazy DM are the ones that say non core books. But the alternative system books are another story They run by their own rules and tend not to fit quite right in to the 3.5 system. But if your group like then run with it. It just should not be the answer to any melee build. The same could be said about the build with two levels in ten different classes to get he dozen free feats and class abilities to get more damage to one attack. What ever happen to paying the EXP when you have to many multi class classes out of wack. I fight smart not harder.
#27 lormador Jan 15, 2009 19:33:52	It may not be your experience that fighters are overshadowed by casters, but it is the common opinion that this is the case. I need only cite the 1st level fighter vs. wolf animal companion: but if you frequent these forums there is no need to rehash the whole deal yet again. Second, there is no need to remove the ranger, paladin, and what have you from the game. All of those classes have places in various character constructions. There are players that will want to play them even when ToB is allowed, and they are useful for NPCs as well. Finally, I think I can provide some explanation as to why some might choose Core or SRD-only options sometimes. The simplicity can be liberating. One of my campaigns is an SRD-only E6 homebrew desert world with a lot of psionics. Making the campaign core-only allows me to whip up very strong NPCs quickly, to the point where I detailed an entire 2000-strong army from the various kinds of conscripts, warriors, officers, elites, adventurers, etc. in about an hour, organizing them into units and calculating their supply requirements in under 2 hours. Try doing the same thing with all sources allowed, and you'll appreciate Core-only.
#28 Wyvernhand Jan 16, 2009 22:06:05	Yea, I know the maths on BAB. 19/20 BAB is good, but Crippling Strike is worth the loss, IMO. Especially if you are TWF. Being able to make a foe go from 18 to 0 str in one full attack is just amazing. Plus, if you take Savvy Rogue from Complete Scoundrel, you can now use Crippling Strike on things that you can't SA. That means, when your friendly wizard drops a Grease spell under a golem, you can pock the bajebus out of it, nerfing its Str down to the point where its nearly worthless. That's pretty valuable, and you are still getting to 17/20 BAB, with 16/20 being the target number to pick up the 4th attack per round per epic. And your views of ToB...make me sad. I don't watch anime, and it doesn't appeal to me as a player, but I can honestly tell you that melee as an initiator is WAY more fun than as not. And I have plenty of builds that can out-damage, and out-survive many ToB builds, so the other classes still have their place, and their role.
#29 emansdrawkcab Jan 17, 2009 2:55:16	ToB is only fun, because it gives martial combat more than two dimensions; archery or melee. Options are fun.
#30 alkarion Jan 17, 2009 10:41:58	Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Assasin 10 / Swordsage 4 Feats: Daring Outlaw, EWP(Spike Chain), Craven, Shadow Blade, Darkstalker Weapon: Spike Chain with Deadly Precision Ability (+Fierce Ability (3.0!!!)) Assasin Stance + Obscuring Shadow Veil + Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (from Gloves Shadow Hands (master)): 11d6(sneak) +20d6(from maneuvers) +2d4 (chain) + 1,5*Str + Int + Wis + Dex (*2 if Fierce) + 20 + may be Power Attack (because use True Strike or Wraithstrike). Use UMD - give Golem Strike and Grave Strike.