The campaign will be very combat heavy, and judging from past campaigns witht his DM, he will most likely be throwing many lower CR enemies at us rather than a few strong ones.
There are only a few limitations on my character, the big one being my stats. My stats have already been determined, and my DM has a weird, very unforgiving system for rolling stats; you simply roll 3d6 for each specific stat. You cannot switch around stats—what you roll for Strength is what you're stuck with. Beccause of this, here are my rather lopsided stats that I am stuck to work with:
Str 11, Dex 9, Con 9, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 11
In addition, I will be starting at level 7 and am restricted to the PHB for my race. Besides that, I can use virtually any WotC material, including online sources.
I'm definitely limited because of the wide gap between my higher intelligence and lower...well, pretty much every other stat. Because of this, I initially thought that a battlefield-control focused Conjurer would probably fit best, as he'd be able to handle the large groups of enemies my DM will be throwing at us. However, one big thing for me is that I want to feel involved in each battle, rather than feeling like I'm just buffing my friend's character or something. Yes, I know that Wizards are God, but I'm still worried that my friend would begin to grow much more powerful than me and begin to overshadow me.
Do you think that a Conjurer would be the best choice compliment for my friend's character and for this type of campaign, or is there something better? Are there any other good options I have besides a Wizard? Any ideas are welcome; basically, I just want to know what options would be available to me rather than the Wizard. I'm not really set on the idea of a Conjurer, or even that enthusiastic about it, so if there's any other type of build that you think would work rather than the typical battlefield-control wizard I'm completely open to hearing it. Thanks so much for your help!
......and sorry for the really long post haha
The real problem is not the Str you're stuck with -- it's the Con.
If you can use stuff from Dragon, take Faerie Mysteries Initiate [regional] from Dragon 319. Use it to replace your Con with Int for purposes of HP.
debuffing necromancer
Or an army-building necromancer. That allows less pre-game optimization and is much more dependent on ingame circumstances though.
The only other thing I can think of with those stats are a beguiler (PHB II). It's a little more durable, lets you wear light armor, and gets you many more skill points and class skills.
Heck you could even combine the two for a beguiler1/wizard4/ultimatemagus2.
Although, if you pick gnome or dwarf as your race, and stick your level 4 point on Con, your hit points will be tolerable. Buy yourself the best +Con item you can, and prepare a few False Life spells. Mainly rely on not being hit, though. For that, it's hard to beat being a wizard.
You could be a gnome wizard 5/shadowcraft mage 3, if you can cheese the entry slightly (use Earth Spell + Heighten to meet the 4th level spells requirement).
If you take Leadership, you could get a cleric cohort that keeps a Shield Other spell on you, also.
With those stats conjurer wizard is obviously your best bet.
Now you can of course do other things quite well if you don't like battlefield control. Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 1 is pretty fun for example or ScM for the win. But your STR and DEX are both really low to truly abuse anything that requires actually HITTING.
I have thought about an archivist a bit too, but I don't know much about the class. Would he act in basically the same way as a cleric? What would his strengths be?
I have actually thought about a summoner. Would there be a good way to combine summoning and battlefield control? Maybe a conjurer would be able to do this just fine, but would there be any prestige classes that would work well for this?
I have thought about an archivist a bit too, but I don't know much about the class. Would he act in basically the same way as a cleric? What would his strengths be?
the problem with archivist is that it relies on you wisdom for bonus spell/day.
illusion can work very well for your scenario. Add Shadowcraft Mage, and you're good-to-go.
conjuration has plenty of battlefield control (and, of course, all the summoning). as a matter of fact, a lot of the spells just within conjuration work well with each other for synergy affect. (spell compendium/CArc. adds some cool direct damage spells, too). "Extraordinary Concentration" feat (CAdv.) will help with multi-tasking; as well as the "Swift Concentration" skill trick (CScoundrel).
Complete Mage has some nice options: "Focused Specialist" will greatly expand your spells/day, at the cost of losing a 3rd school. Also, "Master Specialist" PrC adds some nice benefits (details later).
UA also has plenty of options for you as well. "Rapid Summoning" turns all of your summoning spells in to standard actions as apposed to full-round -- you lose your familiar, but than can be made-up with the "obtain familiar" feat (and that familiar will still improve with ANY class that advances arcane spellcasting). "Advanced Summoning" gets you the "augment summoning" feat in exchange for losing all of your wizard bonus feats (not a loss if you PrC). The loss of a spell/level from "Spontaneous Summoning" isn't so bad if you take "Focused Spec. (from above)". -- All of these stack nicely with the "minor/moderate/major school esoterica" from "master spec. (from above)".
The ritual to become necropolitan loses you 1 level and 1000 exp. If you make this at level 3, you lose a total of 2000 exp.
After reading through everything so far I was still leaning towards going Focused Specialist Conjurer5/Master Specialist 2 and banning Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy to focus on BC...until I found out a bit more about our campaign. We will be running an evil campaign, and we will also start out with a small stronghold. This new information has sparked a desire in me to create some type of character that controls some undead minions while supporting them with BC and debuff spells on the enemies. Basically, someone who could control an undead army and back them up with some spellcasting. Any specific builds that would work well in this role?
I was thinking of maybe just staying a Focused Specialist Conjurer and taking leadership/undead leadership to get my minions, but there has to be something more effective/optimized than this. An animate dead Cleric/Dread Necromancer could work, but I don't know how often I will be able to find bodies of stronger monsters that could actually create strong skeletons, rather than a bunch of weak/useless CR 1 skeletons from the goblins I killed or something. Would there be another way for me to obtain the bodies of stronger monsters that I can animate? Or maybe a better means of creating an undead army other than animate dead? Would a Cleric/Dread Necromancer even be the best option for me in this situation if I also want to be able to back up my army through my own means?
Also, there is one more thing I am worried about. If I do end up going the focused Conjurer route and focus on BC, I worry that we will not have a lot of damage output and the battles against large amounts of enemies will go rather slowly because, while most of the enemies may be disabled, they will only be killed one or two at a time by my friend's character. I was thinking that summoned monsters could help in this respect, and I could summon them once I lay down a few Clouds/Glitterdusts/Whatever. Do you think this would be the best solution, or would picking up a few AoE Evocation spells rather than banning Evocation be a better solution? Or maybe there's something else I could do? Basically, I am conflicted between trying to provide greater damage output for us to make battles go faster and trying to provide more BC and debuffs to make battles easier, even if they may be a bit longer. I know that BC/debuff is generally seen as the best way to go, but with only two pcs would it be better to go for a bit more damage output?
Thanks for all of the great input so far guys! Sorry I have so many questions, I'm kind of all over the place with so many different ideas right now haha.
if you are looking for something else, then you can't go wrong with a druid (especially with you stats).
if you want undead to be your gig, then cleric/wizard/true necro. load-up on the corpse-crafter feats, and create your army. undead leadership could be of help
True Necro is one of the worst prestige classes ever printed. If you want undead, either straight wizard or cleric is better. All it takes to make undead is spellcasting, which True Necro weakens considerably. A single-classed caster with the Corpse Crafter feat and access to a desecrated area with an altar is a much better undead crafter than a True Necro.
If you want to specialize in making undead, you're probably better off going with a Dread Necromancer, but you will definitely be less versatile than a wizard or cleric would be.
True Necro is one of the worst prestige classes ever printed. If you want undead, either straight wizard or cleric is better. All it takes to make undead is spellcasting, which True Necro weakens considerably. A single-classed caster with the Corpse Crafter feat and access to a desecrated area with an altar is a much better undead crafter than a True Necro.
If you want to specialize in making undead, you're probably better off going with a Dread Necromancer, but you will definitely be less versatile than a wizard or cleric would be.
it's no worse than any other dual-caster PrC -- they all have slow "ramp-up", but once they hit their stride, they've got spells ALL DAY LONG. also, in my personal experience, the class abilities of the true necro add a lot. of course, this is just my own in-game personal experience (not that it necessarily means anything on a theorectical level ....).
it's no worse than any other dual-caster PrC -- they all have slow "ramp-up", but once they hit their stride, they've got spells ALL DAY LONG. also, in my personal experience, the class abilities of the true necro add a lot. of course, this is just my own in-game personal experience (not that it necessarily means anything on a theorectical level ....).
It IS worse than other duel casters. That PrC does not grant +1 spells for both classes at every level. Look at the progression again. A wiz3/clr3/TrueNecro14 casts at 15th level for both wizard and cleric. I've used the PrC too (for an NPC). It is strictly inferior to just playing a cleric.
Getting more spells is pretty much a myth, too. You don't even get that many more spells than a single-classed caster, and you get far less of the ones that actually matter.
A wiz3/clr3/TrueNecro14 casts at 15th level for both wizard and cleric.
um... that's the same if you took any other dual-caster. the only way around that is if you were able to get a second full dual-caster progression (which, theoretically, I guess you can).
also, i found the other class features to be quite a boon.
evidently, we have had very different experiences.
um... that's the same if you took any other dual-caster.
No it's not. Unless you do something retarded like go Wiz 5/Clr 5/Mystic Theurge 10 instead of X3/Y7/MT10, you can get 9th level spells with the other duel class PrCs. This makes them tolerable, but still sub-optimal.
You can't get 9th level spells with True Necro without extreme cheese. You lose caster levels off each side right in the beginning of the class. So at Wiz3/Clr3/TN4, your casting as a Wiz 5/Clr5, or a character of half your level. This sucks giant hairy monkey balls.
Disregarding bonus spells, the casting progressions line up like this:
...
In summary: this PrC blows more goats than the Warmage. I do like the flavor, and like I said I've even used it for NPCs, but it is hopelessly underpowered, and I would never play one as a PC.
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong; however, there are a couple of flaws in your arguement. It is those flaws that leave room for things such as opinion, tastes/styles, and party-specific utility. Would I use TN for a TO? -- never. That doesn't mean that the class is as useless as it's made-out to be (no character exists in a bubble; well, unless that bubble is the CO boards :P ).
We could go on ad infinitum about this; but I will simply leave it as I did before: "evidently, we have had very different experiences".
I like Yathrinshee, even though it's basically a worse version of True Necromancer.
I don't know -- evidently, there is nothing that is as bad as the TN
sorry, that was uncalled-for; I just couldn't help myself.
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong; however, there are a couple of flaws in your arguement. It is those flaws that leave room for things such as opinion, tastes/styles, and party-specific utility. Would I use TN for a TO? -- never. That doesn't mean that the class is as useless as it's made-out to be (no character exists in a bubble; well, unless that bubble is the CO boards :P ).
We could go on ad infinitum about this; but I will simply leave it as I did before: "evidently, we have had very different experiences".
See the thing is... this IS the CO boards. So we are by definition talking about how things compare from the standpoint of power. From that point of view, the True Necromancer is absolutely horrible.
If there is a flaw in anyone's argument, it is yours for not knowing the basic assumptions made about anything posted on this board. If someone posts here and says "What is the best necromancer class?", they're not talking about from a flavor point of view. They're talking about from a power point of view. They don't need to specify that (though in this particular case, the OP did, in the title even), because they already have just from posting here.
If this were the board about giving roleplaying advice (does that even exist anymore?), it would be a very different story. True Necro is absolutely dripping with flavor and coolness. It really is a damn shame that it is so weak.
See the thing is... this IS the CO boards. So we are by definition talking about how things compare from the standpoint of power. From that point of view, the True Necromancer is absolutely horrible.
If there is a flaw in anyone's argument, it is yours for not knowing the basic assumptions made about anything posted on this board. If someone posts here and says "What is the best necromancer class?", they're not talking about from a flavor point of view. They're talking about from a power point of view. They don't need to specify that (though in this particular case, the OP did, in the title even), because they already have just from posting here.
If this were the board about giving roleplaying advice (does that even exist anymore?), it would be a very different story. True Necro is absolutely dripping with flavor and coolness. It really is a damn shame that it is so weak.
I GET YOUR G*D* POINT, ALREADY!
Even here, people are looking for ideas about stuff to use in an actual game -- not for some silly contest. The rest of the group is a very real and essential context (which I don't think that the OP fully covered -- but that's beside the point). He's already been given several dozen ideas, plus all the stuff on the "sticky" threads. evidentally, that wasn't doing it for him. i simply threw-out an idea that i had a very good experience with.
now, get off your f'n high-horse, and move on.
I GET YOUR G*D* POINT, ALREADY!
Good. Glad I could be of assistance. Let me know if you need anything else clarified. ;)
Good. Glad I could be of assistance. Let me know if you need anything else clarified. ;)
--!-_
Str 9 Dex 9 Con 13 Int 11 Wis 16 Cha 11
You can have nice animal companion for another tank, still be able to summon what you need, and still having plenty of BC spells
Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell for early entry everywhere (two feats at 1st). Doing the math, you need a starting 15 Int to hit the skill requirements as a human. You also need 2 feats via Magic of Incarnum to get evasion (3rd and 6th). BAB +15, 9th level arcane, 9th level divine.
Core only -
Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Lich 4
Superbly flavorful, but helluh weak.
Druid 3 / Bard 1 / Mystic Theurge 3 / Arcane Hieromphant 3 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan Lyricist 9
Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell for early entry everywhere (two feats at 1st). Doing the math, you need a starting 15 Int to hit the skill requirements as a human. You also need 2 feats via Magic of Incarnum to get evasion (3rd and 6th). BAB +15, 9th level arcane, 9th level divine.
Core only -
Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Lich 4
Superbly flavorful, but helluh weak.
substitute Green Whisperer in there somewhere to boost Bardic Music -- probably 2 of the MT levels. I'd probably sub-out some of the FL levels for the rest of AH (AC > music).
I GET YOUR G*D* POINT, ALREADY!
Even here, people are looking for ideas about stuff to use in an actual game -- not for some silly contest. The rest of the group is a very real and essential context (which I don't think that the OP fully covered -- but that's beside the point). He's already been given several dozen ideas, plus all the stuff on the "sticky" threads. evidentally, that wasn't doing it for him. i simply threw-out an idea that i had a very good experience with.
now, get off your f'n high-horse, and move on.
I would like to take you seriously, but doing so would be an affront to your intelligence.
I would like to take you seriously, but doing so would be an affront to your intelligence.
1) who rattled your chain?
2) was that really necessary?
3) do you feel better now?
4) I'd like to care about what you thought, but doing so would be an incredible over-estimation of your importance.