Alter self + Warforged = Realy broken?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

deneb

Oct 23, 2008 21:42:09		I was looking at Snex's table of forms for a warforged and was pretty interested by the Animated Objects. When I double checked the actual stats for them I saw something.

SRD wrote:
#2

turok124

Oct 23, 2008 22:46:57 		doesn't get extraordinary abilities
#3

jaronk

Oct 24, 2008 2:51:42 		That depends, hardness might count as a physical thing, despite being Ex. Not sure about that one. Alter Self gives purely physical stuff, after all.

So, not sure if this works or not.

JaronK
#4

carnivore

Oct 24, 2008 16:01:24 		doesnt work ... notice:

Alter Self
Transmutation

Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2

Components: V, S

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Range: Personal

Target: You

Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

Hardness is a Special Quality and is (EX)...

:D
#5

jaronk

Oct 24, 2008 16:37:59 		Actually, it might work, because of this part:

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You don't gain Ex qualities if they're not physical qualities, but the physical qualities is a "include" list so it's not exclusive. As such, the question is whether hardness is a physical quality... and the fact that Natural Armour, which is the closest thing, is in fact a physical quality strongly suggests this might work.

JaronK
#6

neceros

Oct 24, 2008 16:45:56 		As a DM, I'd rule yes.
#7

jaronk

Oct 24, 2008 17:16:02 		Heh, as a rules analysist, I'd say it works. As a DM, I'd say "it works, but don't do it." Because let's face it, Obdurium (Hardness 30) would be way too strong.

JaronK
#8

BloodDragon

Oct 24, 2008 17:22:14
As a DM, I'd rule yes.

Don't think that holds water here.
You don't gain Ex qualities if they're not physical qualities, but the physical qualities is a "include" list so it's not exclusive. As such, the question is whether hardness is a physical quality... and the fact that Natural Armour, which is the closest thing, is in fact a physical quality strongly suggests this might work.
JaronK

Hardness as a creature ability is still Ex which isn't quite the same as a physical quality of an object, and it doesn't make any specific mention for it.

Tough call but I'm with carnivore on this and saying you can't.
#9

deneb

Oct 24, 2008 23:39:30 		ok.. board ate my first post so I have to retype this.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

...
9. of or concerning only the broadest or most general considerations, aspects, etc.
...

The material that something is made out of, be it flesh, metal, or stone, is most certainly a very basic quality, and part of what its made of is how it reacts to things. If the feathers in the wings of other posible forms allowing the creature to fly then retaining the hardness of the material its made out of should be just as applicable.



Also... this is the CO boards. I'm just having fun playing with RAW. As a DM there is no way Id let a player use this to turn themselves into a rare-metal statue. (stone and steel I might allow) At the very least they would have to come across a statue that they wanted to turn into. But thats all Rule 0 and not what I'm asking here.


EDIT:

Hardness as a creature ability is still Ex which isn't quite the same as a physical quality of an object, and it doesn't make any specific mention for it.

But for 2 points: 1) this is an Animated Object. and 2) There is nowhere in the SRD at least where creatures lose any hardness that they may have. This is important given an SRD entry for Intelligent magic items.
Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Intelligent items often have the ability to illuminate their surroundings at will (as magic weapons do); many cannot see otherwise

#10

muertog

Oct 25, 2008 0:24:37
Actually, it might work, because of this part:



You don't gain Ex qualities if they're not physical qualities, but the physical qualities is a "include" list so it's not exclusive. As such, the question is whether hardness is a physical quality... and the fact that Natural Armour, which is the closest thing, is in fact a physical quality strongly suggests this might work.

JaronK

Actually, the closest thing to Hardness would be Damage Reduction, not Natural Armor.
#11

deneb

Oct 25, 2008 2:31:12 		Not always.

Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

And again,
DAMAGE REDUCTION: Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or to ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.

#12

jaronk

Oct 25, 2008 2:41:17
Actually, the closest thing to Hardness would be Damage Reduction, not Natural Armor.

Sorry, should have said "closest thing to hardness that's listed by the spell." DR isn't listed, and thus doesn't help us here.

JaronK
#13

kobold_esq

Oct 25, 2008 19:37:37 		How is this even an argument?

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

Is hardness and extraordinary special quality of an animated object?

Yes.

Was hardness listed above?

No. No it wasn't.

Question answered.
#14

jaronk

Oct 25, 2008 21:41:58 		It's an arguement because the Physical Qualities Noted Above is a non exhaustive list. Therefor, anything that counts as a physical quality under the definition given above is indeed given by Alter Self. What the thing is made of is a pretty gross physical quality.

JaronK
#15

muertog

Oct 26, 2008 14:00:25 		Regarding Hardness as equivalent of DR:
Damage Reduction

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

Additionally, please re-review the spell alter self:
Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

This means that you only can get the abilities listed in the first paragraph, and the second paragraph says you get nothing that is not listed in the first paragraph. Note that there is no mention of "hardness" or "damage reduction" in the first paragraph.

Gross physical qualities do not seem to mention anything about materials that the creature is made of, only the shape of the creature selected.
#16

acereraklives

Oct 26, 2008 14:01:48 		I'd say you get it - hardness is an innate quality of objects as well as an (Ex) ability they retain when they become creatures. If I gain the natural armor of a troglodyte when I cast Alter Self to become one, does it really make sense that turning into a solid block of iron doesn't do anything at all to stop a sword?

Even without the hardness, it makes for a cool character concept as well - a warforged spy-wizard who turns into chairs and curtains to stalk his enemies, and then into an adamantine bulldozer when it's time to kill them.
#17

jaronk

Oct 26, 2008 16:46:01
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form

That's where I'd say it's noted above. If the list was exhaustive, you could say it's not noted above, but it's inclusive, not exclusive, so it's noted above.

JaronK
#18

muertog

Oct 26, 2008 16:57:31
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form

That's where I'd say it's noted above. If the list was exhaustive, you could say it's not noted above, but it's inclusive, not exclusive, so it's noted above.

JaronK

Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

Again, the first paragraph states what are considered physical qualities. I read "gross physical qualities" as to mean shape, as demonstrated by the examples given following the declaration of "gross physical qualities": presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth

If the list of physical qualities was not the complete list, it would indicate that there were other qualities not listed. The second paragraph is an example of a list that is shown in part (not complete), and denotes this by the words "and so forth"

Edit:
Definition of the word "Gross" as referred to in this topic:
Lacking fine distinctions or detail; "the gross details of the structure appear reasonable"
Megascopic: visible to the naked eye (especially of rocks and anatomical features)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define:gross
This is a reference to shape, not of chemical makeup.
#19

jaronk

Oct 26, 2008 20:03:29 		I would definitely say that one of the gross physical qualities of a statue included that it was made of stone.

Same thing here.

JaronK
#20

muertog

Oct 26, 2008 23:30:46 		It may be made of stone, metal, liquid, gas, vegetable, or even meat, but gross physical characteristic does not cover chemical composition.

Additionally, Alter Self does not allow you to copy something else EXACTLY. You only get a general appearance of something. IE: You can make yourself into a blackscale lizardfolk, but you won't have the strength score of a particular blackscale lizardfolk.
You can make yourself into a statue, doesn't mean it is THAT statue over there. You just look like a stone statue of X color.
#21

jaronk

Oct 27, 2008 0:45:48 		If we're talking about a chunk of iron, then yes, the fact that it's a chunk of iron is a gross physical characteristic.

That's basically what the term means.

JaronK
#22

muertog

Oct 27, 2008 0:49:21 		No, a gross physical characteristic is "It is a silvery-coloured hunk of metallic material of X shape"

Please note what the word "gross" is defined as.
#23

jaronk

Oct 27, 2008 0:58:02 		You think "chunk of iron" is finely detailed or has fine distinction?

JaronK
#24

muertog

Oct 27, 2008 1:05:45 		Since you cannot determine that something is composed of iron (or of how much iron in the case of an alloy) from just looking at it, yes.
#25

jaronk

Oct 27, 2008 1:09:24 		Yeah, but we're talking pure element, and I can definitely tell if something's made of iron.

Plus, it's not just about looking. Your definition was about lacking fine detail, not "can you tell from 50 feet away." I know the difference between steel and alluminum by weight or by sight. In a world where your options for metal are Obdurium, Adamantium, Mithral and Iron most of the time, the difference should be clear enough.

JaronK
#26

muertog

Oct 27, 2008 1:34:28 		Cold Iron, Fever Iron, Steel, Silver, Alchemical Silver, Platinum, or any number of other shiny, silvery-coloured metals.

My point is that the very definition of "gross physical attribute" indicates only physical shape and possibly colour, not the chemical or atomic makeup of the subject. Part of the Alter Self spell allows you to change the colour of the creature you are turning yourself into (as long as it is within acceptable norms of a creature of that type), so even the colour isn't a given.

Are there statues that are bronze coloured? Shiny silver? Pitted and corroded black? Streaky green? Those are just some of the metal-based ones. We haven't covered painted, or statues that appear to have been made of materials of non-metallic origin.

My points are "gross physical attributes" refers to the physical shape and nothing more (by definition), and Hardness is not described in the list of copy-able physical abilities. The wording of that portion of the spell indicates that the list is complete and inclusive of all examples.

Unless those facts are addressed and countered, I believe I will have no further input on this subject. ^_^
#27

jaronk

Oct 27, 2008 3:53:04 		You're contradicting yourself. If it's the physical shape and nothing more, then it's not color either, now is it?

Frankly, I'd think that what something's made of, when it's a homogenious substance, is far more of a gross physical trait than the color of the paint job. If I tell you it's a red and black painted box, that's far more detail than "it's a painted wooden box."

JaronK
#28

muertog

Oct 27, 2008 11:12:52
You're contradicting yourself. If it's the physical shape and nothing more, then it's not color either, now is it?

Frankly, I'd think that what something's made of, when it's a homogenious substance, is far more of a gross physical trait than the color of the paint job. If I tell you it's a red and black painted box, that's far more detail than "it's a painted wooden box."

JaronK

Under the definitions posted previously, there was one mention of "That which is within the comprehension of the five senses, mind and intellect."
Five senses equals sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste.
However, that definition is also from a website devoted to "Sanatan Society for Scientific Spirituality"... IE spiritual practice.

Personally don't think the writers at WotC were thinking of a religious organization when writing the description for Alter Self, but heck, I won't argue colour, just to be fair.
So for a statue, we have:
Sight: Colour and shape.
Touch: Rough/smooth/bumpy... does NOT mean pick up and weigh.
Sound: Um, yeah.
Hearing: Um, double sound.
Smell: I don't think I want to go there.
Taste: Look, if you have these fetishes, I don't want to know about them. ^_^

If you want to argue a different interpretation of the words "gross physical quantities", please give a definition and proof. Otherwise you are stuck with the definition that has already been provided, which does not allow for "your" definition. I mean, I can define a rose as a small canine usually brown in colour, doesn't make it a recognized definition.
#29

jaronk

Oct 27, 2008 14:32:37 		My definition is this one:

Definition of the word "Gross" as referred to in this topic:
Lacking fine distinctions or detail; "the gross details of the structure appear reasonable"
Megascopic: visible to the naked eye (especially of rocks and anatomical features)

Since "made of iron" is not a fine distinction or detail (an exactly 95% iron 5% titanium distinction would be a fine distinction) and is something that I can actually see just fine, being someone who works with metals a bit, I think it counts. I can absolutely look at a piece of aluminium truss and see that it's aluminium, I can identify steel too that way, and I can do it with iron as well.

JaronK
#30

carnivore

Oct 27, 2008 17:41:13 		why not just look at the entry for Animated Objects:

Animated Object, Colossal
Colossal Construct
Hit Dice: 32d10+80 (256 hp)
Initiative: –3
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares); 20 ft. legs, 30 ft. multiple legs, 50 ft. wheels
Armor Class: 11 (–8 size, –3 Dex, +12 natural), touch –1, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+49
Attack: Slam +25 melee (4d6+13)
Full Attack: Slam +25 melee (4d6+13)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft. (long) 30 ft./30 ft. (tall)
Special Attacks: See text
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; also see text
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +5
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 4, Con —, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Animated objects come in all sizes, shapes, and colors. They owe their existence as creatures to spells such as animate objects or similar supernatural abilities.

COMBAT
Animated objects fight only as directed by the animator. They follow orders without question and to the best of their abilities. Since they do not need to breathe and never tire, they can be extremely capable minions.

An animated object can have one or more of the following special abilities, depending on its form.

Blind (Ex): A sheetlike animated object such as a carpet or tapestry can grapple an opponent up to three sizes larger than itself. The object makes a normal grapple check. If it wins, it wraps itself around the opponent’s head, causing that creature to be blinded until removed.

Constrict (Ex): A flexible animated object such as a rope, vine, or rug deals damage equal to its slam damage value plus 1- 1/2 times its Strength bonus with a successful grapple check against a creature up to one size larger than itself.

An object of at least Large size can make constriction attacks against multiple creatures at once, if they all are at least two sizes smaller than the object and can fit under it.

Hardness (Ex): An animated object has the same hardness it had before it was animated.

Improved Speed (Ex): The base land speed given in the statistics block assume that an animated object lurches, rocks, or slithers along.

Objects with two legs (statues, ladders) or a similar shape that allows faster movement have a +10 foot bonus to speed. Objects with multiple legs (tables, chairs) have a +20 foot bonus to speed. Wheeled objects have a +40 foot bonus to speed.

Objects might have additional modes of movement. A wooden object can float and has a swim speed equal to half its land speed. A rope or similar sinuous object has a climb speed equal to half its land speed. A sheetlike object can fly (clumsy maneuverability) at half its normal speed.

Trample (Ex): An animated object of at least Large size and with a hardness of at least 10 can trample creatures two or more sizes smaller than itself, dealing damage equal to the object’s slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Strength bonus. Opponents who do not make attacks of opportunity against the object can attempt Reflex saves (DC 10 + 1/2 object’s HD + object’s Str modifier) to halve the damage.

the text lists Specificly Hardness(EX) ... this is a Special Quality .... thus Alter Self does not grant it

:D
#31

jaronk

Oct 27, 2008 19:17:03 		Yes, the fact that it is an Ex Special Quality is obvious. The spell, however, says that you don't get Ex Special Qualities... unless they're noted above. So, are they noted above?

So the question is, when it says before that that you get any gross physical qualities, does the hardness of the material it's made out of count as a gross physical quality or not? If so, then you get it, because it's "noted above." If not, then you don't, because it's an Ex Special Quality that's not noted above.

That's where the discussion is right now.

JaronK
#32

carnivore

Oct 28, 2008 4:10:25 		i would accept your definition:

"Definition of the word "Gross" as referred to in this topic:
Lacking fine distinctions or detail; "the gross details of the structure appear reasonable"
Megascopic: visible to the naked eye"

Hardness is not visible to the naked eye..... material makeup can be determined by sight(metal,glass,wood,etc..), how hard the material is can not be determined by the "Naked eye"

the spell also gave a clue as to what can be determined with the naked eye:

"gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. "

these are qualities that can be seen....

this also agrees with Muertogs definition:
"My points are "gross physical attributes" refers to the physical shape and nothing more (by definition), "

:D