This is the scenario; I am making a new level 9 character and as a gesture of good will I decided to make myself a straight fighter to avoid giving my DM a hard time with the mechanics.
Now, I recently spotted aelryinth's lock build which I was excited to implement however I noticed that some of the feats are from books that are restricted to me. On the other hand I also wanted to give the character more flavor and personality by giving him a more elaborate background in which he mostly focused on fighting arcane spell casters. Also I don’t want him to be completely incompetent skill wise so multi-classing or dipping a level in another class might be a good idea so I am not discarding it.
Okay, now to the mechanical part of the thread.
Here are my character’s rolls 18 16 16 12 12 10.
Here is aelryinth's lock build (props to him) which I am using as a skeleton for my build.(with some notes)
Lock Build
Lockdown, NG F/20, Human. (alignment is not important, nor is race)
Fighter Bonus Feats
1- Improved Initiative Allowed
2- EWP Spiked Chain. Alternatively, Short Haft and use a glaive so you can set against a charge for double dmg. Picked the chain for the easy area threat. ALTERNATE: Take a big piercing polearm (guisarme or longspear) and wear SPiked Gauntlets. This frees up a feat while allowing you to threaten near and far, letting you take Power Attack or (wait for it!) WEAPON SUPREMACY! Note that with Adaptive, all your Weapon Focus chain could apply to your Gauntlets, too, including Supremacy. You also become hell against a charge...and hey, Lances do piercing dmg, too, don't they? Allowed
3- None
4- Weapon Spec Allowed
5- None
6- Stand Still (i.e. Don’t Move, you.) Allowed
7- None
8- Greater weapon focus Allowed
9- None
10- Martial Stance – Thicket of blades (All movement out of squares threatened is AoO) Restricted
11- None
12- Close Quarters Fighting (oh, grapple me, PLEASE) Allowed
13- None
14- Greater Weapon Spec Allowed
15- None
16- Overpowering Assault (Double dmg instead of full attack, affects AoO’s) === Build is now MATURE. Allowed
17- None
18- Deft opportunist Under Judgment
19- None
20- Defensive Sweep (if someone adjacent to you does not move, triggers AoO) Allowed
General Feats
1- Weapon Focus Allowed
3- Combat Reflexes Allowed
6- Martial Study (Foehammer, punches DR, +2d6, Standard Action)=== Unlikely to ever be used. Should probably choose a save or boost feat. Restricted
9- Melee weapon Mastery (piercing) === slashing if Glaive. Allowed
12- Mage Slayer (No casting defensively, or Spell Likes) Allowed
15- Pierce Magical Protection (gets rid of uber buffage) Allowed
18- Robilar’s Gambit (Generates heaps of double dmg AoO’s) Allowed
Alternate Feats
Supernatural Instincts Restricted
Supernatural Opportunist Restricted
Occult Opportunist Restricted
Lockdown, NG F/20, Human. (alignment is not important, nor is race)
Fighter Bonus Feats
1- Improved Initiative Allowed
2- EWP Spiked Chain. Alternatively, Short Haft and use a glaive so you can set against a charge for double dmg. Picked the chain for the easy area threat. ALTERNATE: Take a big piercing polearm (guisarme or longspear) and wear SPiked Gauntlets. This frees up a feat while allowing you to threaten near and far, letting you take Power Attack or (wait for it!) WEAPON SUPREMACY! Note that with Adaptive, all your Weapon Focus chain could apply to your Gauntlets, too, including Supremacy. You also become hell against a charge...and hey, Lances do piercing dmg, too, don't they? Allowed
3- None
4- Weapon Spec Allowed
5- None
6- Stand Still (i.e. Don’t Move, you.) Allowed
7- None
8- Greater weapon focus Allowed
9- None
10- Martial Stance – Thicket of blades (All movement out of squares threatened is AoO) Restricted
11- None
12- Close Quarters Fighting (oh, grapple me, PLEASE) Allowed
13- None
14- Greater Weapon Spec Allowed
15- None
16- Overpowering Assault (Double dmg instead of full attack, affects AoO’s) === Build is now MATURE. Allowed
17- None
18- Deft opportunist Under Judgment
19- None
20- Defensive Sweep (if someone adjacent to you does not move, triggers AoO) Allowed
General Feats
1- Weapon Focus Allowed
3- Combat Reflexes Allowed
6- Martial Study (Foehammer, punches DR, +2d6, Standard Action)=== Unlikely to ever be used. Should probably choose a save or boost feat. Restricted
9- Melee weapon Mastery (piercing) === slashing if Glaive. Allowed
12- Mage Slayer (No casting defensively, or Spell Likes) Allowed
15- Pierce Magical Protection (gets rid of uber buffage) Allowed
18- Robilar’s Gambit (Generates heaps of double dmg AoO’s) Allowed
Alternate Feats
Supernatural Instincts Restricted
Supernatural Opportunist Restricted
Occult Opportunist Restricted
~P_X~
Your build is a no-go Archer, ToB is specifically out in his campaign.
~P_X~
Ouch. No thicket hurts.
Ouch. No thicket hurts.
Yeah. Thicket is indeed a worthwhile key if you can use ToB.
He could use Knight (bleh a little bit), but only if he can fit 3 levels in, and can bite the Code.
~P_X~
I also have problems with Archpower's build, because he relies on a somewhat radical interpretation of decisive strike, and, of course, I'm not a huge fan of flagrant multi-classing.
I'm not sure you can put down a lockdown build, per se. Thicket really IS that important. It turns your character into a wall that, combined with Stand Still and lots of AoO's, can freeze your enemies in place, and then let you or the rest of the party butcher them nicely. Without those AoO's, you're actually looking at a Mage Slayer build, which actually is a different focus.
Given you are playing a straight fighter, ask him if he'll let in ToB with you spending feats...after all, you only want two of them. Otherwise, you might as well just play a mix of Fighter and Occult Slayer.
===Aelryinth
With each square counting as two squares, you can 5-ft step around the knight.
If you can't 5-ft step, you draw an AoO for any movement.
Same result as having Thicket active.
~P_X~
Yeah. Thicket is indeed a worthwhile key if you can use ToB.
He could use Knight (bleh a little bit), but only if he can fit 3 levels in, and can bite the Code.
~P_X~
knight? what knight? I am little bit puzzled, could you be more specific
Well since the idea of the Lock is to keep them prone as much as possible (right?), they aren't going to be withdrawing from a prone position anytime soon.
@ CantripN: Once you start using a Lock build, the DM isn't going to suddenly have every opponent have Earth Devotion. But it is a nice way to get around difficult terrain.
*takes notes for future use*
Yeah, I will admit I haven't read over every devotion feat since getting Complete Champion...Knowledge Devotion is one of the best (so long as you can keep your Knowledge bonuses high), and Animal/Travel/Trickery all have their uses.
~P_X~
The problem is TUMBLE. A tumbling character can still move right past you with a DC 25 check. Sure, it'll cost him twice his normal move. So what? He's still ignoring the fact that you are there...and we all know there's tons of ways to up your movement.
It doesn't shut down a Spring Attacker, either, which Thicket technically does. Worst of all, it forces multi-classing for little synergy of build.
So, eh...He's still going to have a problem controlling the area around him.
===Aelryinth
Unless they have every NPC/monster dip into (getting around having to spend cross-class ranks for a bit), they just aren't going to have a high enough bonus to make that DC 25 check every time they want to move in to attack you.
And Spring Attack? Yeah, let's burn 3 feats just to be able to side-step (figuratively) a Knight-Lock. By the way, this guy (longspear/armor spikes) threatens out to 10ft. So you would need a speed of 50 to use Spring Attack against him (10ft for every square you are moving through).
DMs just aren't going to make everything work against you just for having an efficient build. If they did, they would be ignoring the rest of the party, and most likely opening the NPCs/monsters up to being weak against the rest of the group.
Heck, if you are going to use something against a Lock, use Air Elementals. Technically you don't threaten vertically (Or do you?), so them using Fly-by-Attack won't provoke an AoO at all.
~P_X~
I suggest a crackdown FB to pull giant aggro.
And Spring Attack? Yeah, let's burn 3 feats just to be able to side-step (figuratively) a Knight-Lock. By the way, this guy (longspear/armor spikes) threatens out to 10ft. So you would need a speed of 50 to use Spring Attack against him (10ft for every square you are moving through).
It's only difficult terrain if you start your turn in the Knight's threatened area.
@aelrynth : I thought Thicket vs Spring Attack was unresolved and firmly a DM's call ?
@PX-A DC 25 tumble check is incredibly easy. So is the abitlity to ignore difficult terrain. Aelryinth has a point. Flying creatures ignore knights.
I suggest a crackdown FB to pull giant aggro.
If you don't have ranks in the skill, you can't attempt it. And unless you are going to burn cross-class ranks, you aren't going to maintain a decent bonus. Even having a high Dex (which not every NPC/monster is going to have) isn't enough. And flying creatures ignore the Lock as well.
@ Omen: So sub a spiked chain for the long spear. Not many encounters where the opponent has spring attack is going to have a high enough move speed to be outside your threat range both before and after the spring attack.
~P_X~
Knockback: Races of Stone (Requires large size/powerful build), if allowed.
Improved Trip: PHB
Dungeon Crasher Alt Feature: Dungeonscape, if allowed.
Adding in some shock trooper (CW) and Lion Totem Barbarian (CC) is a nice charge that can do some control of the battlefield. Start knocking people into each other and into a tight ball so the caster can blow them up.
If you don't have ranks in the skill, you can't attempt it. And unless you are going to burn cross-class ranks, you aren't going to maintain a decent bonus. Even having a high Dex (which not every NPC/monster is going to have) isn't enough. And flying creatures ignore the Lock as well.
No. They don't. Thicket works vs flying. Tumble is incredibly stupid NOT to have. I'll spend cc on tumble any day of the week on any build.
@ OP-Strongly suggesting the crackdown.
And like I said not every DM is going to special tailor every encounter (many times after-the-fact) to deal with you. You might not have a problem buy cross-class ranks, but the DM isn't going to go through and give every NPC/monster those ranks.
~P_X~
You don't threaten squares on the vertical plane.
Yes. You do. Any square within reach.
Yes. You do. Any square within reach.
The point here is that without Thicket, you can still make a Lock that works.
Stop arguing the semantics of why it won't if Thicket can't be used.
You aren't even helping the OP. He wanted help making a Lock, and you tell him to make a FB since he can't use Thicket.
Just because you don't have one piece to the puzzle, it doesn't mean you just throw away the build idea.
~P_X~
Stuff
Cut the trolling, please? Ael built lockdown. I rebuilt it. If we say it won't be cost-efficient for the job compared to aggro whoring with crackdown we're probably right.
It's not trolling if you are actually being helpful.
~P_X~
Don't tell me that I can't offer perfectly sound advice.
It's not trolling if you are actually being helpful.
~P_X~
Do you even know what is implied by crackdown?
But apparently the fact that the OP wants a Lock build seems to be unimportant to you.
Lock works even without Thicket of Blades. Sure, not in every instance, but enough to still be very useful.
If the OP wanted a FB crackdown build, he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of actually going through and saying what is/isn't allowed in the original Lock build.
But clearly if one of the CO "gods" speaks, everyone is supposed to just blindly do what they say.
Saying that the OP should just scrap the idea of making a Lock just because his sources are restricted is not helpful. "Oh, no ToB? Just make a FB instead." The OP isn't asking for pure damage output, he's asking for field control.
Stop trying to force everyone to concede that the CO veterans are the "law o' the land", and everyone else isn't worth listening to.
~P_X~
Crackdown simply kills them, making them pay for every attack they make, too - Overwhelming offense is the best defense.
Which would involve Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike.
~P_X~
Most certainly.
Crackdown simply kills them, making them pay for every attack they make, too - Overwhelming offense is the best defense.
Which would involve Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike.
~P_X~
Close, but not quite. Crackdown has enough offense (preferably charges) that the enemy MUST close in on you and kill you simply to survive the next round. Pounces are good because one of the most reliable counters is being adjacent.
Do you understand now?
You basically came in, made a suggestion (for your Lock), were countered that ToB is out (by myself I might add), and proceeded to throw the very idea of making a Lock out the proverbial window.
I suggested a perfectly viable way for the OP to make a decent Lock build.
All you and aelryinth did after that was insert the 'What ifs' of what (you feel) the DM should do to counter a Lock that doesn't have Thicket of Blades. Dms are not going to single out one PC and build every encounter to totally negate what that PC is able to do. Sure, cross-class ranks in Tumble would be helpful, but if there isn't room in the build for the NPC/monster the DM isn't going to rework everything so that there is room.
Thicket of Blades is not the only way to make a decent Lock build. If you trip them in the first round (like the Lock is built for), and they never get a chance to get back up and withdraw in one round, they aren't going anywhere.
Your word isn't Law here on the Boards. Just because aelryinth designed the Lock, and you made version 2.0; that doesn't make you the resident expert on alternative builds. Do you honestly argue just to see your words there on the screen?
~P_X~
You keep saying you suggested a decent Lock build, but it's not a Lock build. The point of both lock builds is to control movement. You need to be able to eliminate 5 foot steps, withdrawing, etc. Thicket does that. Nothing else does (unless I've missed something drastic somewhere). Yes, there are other ways and builds to achieve battlefield control. Yes there are other methods of damage dealing. None of them are a lockdown, though.
Perhaps the OP can get Goad and have his DM increase the range of effect to 30 feet?
Also, doing what archer said and making a build that the enemies have to deal with because its so freakin' dangerous isn't a bad idea either.
You could go either way.
There's no need to argue, though.
Archer, your builds and suggestions are far more optimal that what is being suggested, but that is not necessarily the lines the OP is looking to optimize along. I mean, a druid would probably be a stronger choice, but still not what we are looking at here.
The point of a lock build is to control movement, and with knight in there, it does. The enemies will be unable to take 5 foot steps through difficult terrain, and withdraw only stops the first square from being threatened.
Let me also add that with knockback you can push the enemies into a situation where withdraw will still warrant AoOs from your allies.
Archer, your builds and suggestions are far more optimal that what is being suggested, but that is not necessarily the lines the OP is looking to optimize along. I mean, a druid would probably be a stronger choice, but still not what we are looking at here.
Well, this is the OPTIMIZATION forum...
I hesitate to suggest druid because everyone knows druids are good. A druid doesn't feel like a controller though. It just feels like winning.
It's only difficult terrain if you start your turn in the Knight's threatened area.
@aelrynth : I thought Thicket vs Spring Attack was unresolved and firmly a DM's call ?
As debated, it's a DM's call. I put a post on the SKills and feats board after I actually went back and looked at the stance, and yeah, Thicket should actually override Spring Attack, based on how Thickets is phrased. I haven't changed it on the Lockdown build, but that is my firm opinion.
A Trip Build is harder to get off then a Stand Still build. The problem is making the Trip go off (it's likely at low levels, but not definite like a Stand Still pretty much is), and the fact Trip gets less useful with Time, and Stand Still gets more useful as you do more dmg...which goes up faster then enemy Reflex saves.
==========
And no offense against Archerpwr, but he's not one of the Gods of CO, he's an energetic poster. I've been around a lot longer then him, and I'm not one of the Gods either (actually, I'm a quasi deity cause I'm marginalized for not buying into all the hype on certain subjects ;) and cause I've dared argue with a Board God...or two.)
And again, no offense to his character, but him calling his build Lockdown 2.0 I find personally annoying. It's a build variant of Lockdown, it's not an officially sponsored 'successor', which is what the name implies (new 'Editions' are the exclusive right of the original designer to make, i.e. Caelic alone can make a Jack B. Quick 2.0). I actually consider it a mild insult not to be given the same respect for a build that other CO posters are.
The original thread has several variant Lockdowns with other classes, races and combos in it, with much less controversial class features and rampant multi-classing. So you have Ogrelock and Warbladelock, and so on and so on. I cite them all on that thread at the beginning.
I will note that if the Knight's ability to turn all area he threatens into difficult terrain is worded that way, it works perfectly well against fliers. Still, getting a movement of 50, or 40 combined with a reach weapon, is not that hard to do. Stand Still, btw, works fine against fliers, as it makes them use up their movement. Unless they have perfect manuv, they also fall.
I'm not the expert on Trip builds. There is a lot of synergy you can do between Trips and Stand Still, but I find that the use of a Tactic that becomes harder to employ as your monster foes go up in size makes Trip for a Lock self-defeating, except possibly as an anti-caster tactic (and nothing says casters can't cast when prone, aye?) Also, it practically forces you to rely on a spiked chain, the biggest cheese weapon in the AD@D arsenal, and almost begs the DM to sunder your weapon for you.
So, when I see someone wants a Lockdown build without Thicket, I'm dubious. He's not going to get the AoO's he wants, not going to get the battlefield control he wants, and he's shuffling down that spiked chain road (or worse, the ROpe Dart road, ugh!). I tend to avoid that stuff in favor of more generic builds that find wider acceptance and usefulness.
Very few DM's don't allow Thicket nowadays. It's a reasonably feat, it's certainly not overpowered, and it helps make a number of nice builds (Crackdown for pure unadulterated offense among them). But build a lock on your enemies with just improved Trip and difficult ground? That's going to be tough. Kudos if you pull it off and its effective.
===Aelryinth
And no offense against Archerpwr, but he's not one of the Gods of CO, he's an energetic poster. I've been around a lot longer then him, and I'm not one of the Gods either (actually, I'm a quasi deity cause I'm marginalized for not buying into all the hype on certain subjects ;) and cause I've dared argue with a Board God...or two.)
None taken.
And again, no offense to his character, but him calling his build Lockdown 2.0 I find personally annoying. It's a build variant of Lockdown, it's not an officially sponsored 'successor', which is what the name implies (new 'Editions' are the exclusive right of the original designer to make, i.e. Caelic alone can make a Jack B. Quick 2.0). I actually consider it a mild insult not to be given the same respect for a build that other CO posters are.
The original thread has several variant Lockdowns with other classes, races and combos in it, with much less controversial class features and rampant multi-classing. So you have Ogrelock and Warbladelock, and so on and so on. I cite them all on that thread at the beginning.
*shrug*
All the builds in lockdown are for the most part pure class. I wanted to see how much better multiclassing could do it. As it turns out, it gets the relevant pieces much faster.
Didn't mean to offend with the name.
Very few DM's don't allow Thicket nowadays. It's a reasonably feat, it's certainly not overpowered, and it helps make a number of nice builds (Crackdown for pure unadulterated offense among them). But build a lock on your enemies with just improved Trip and difficult ground? That's going to be tough. Kudos if you pull it off and its effective.
===Aelryinth
No offense, but thicket would be completely wasted on a crackdown. Crackdown makes the enemy want to come to you. Thicket is useless on crackdown.
Unless they have perfect manuv, they also fall.
Which isn't true, as good maneuverability can hover too, and is also a relatively pointless tactics in most situations involving fliers for a multitude of reasons.
I beg to differ. You don't use the Thicket to stop them from coming to you. You use it to stop them from getting away. After all, you don't have to take the AoO for them incoming (and if you have Stormguard Warrior, it just helps you kill them when you do attack).
===Aelryinth
No offense, but thicket would be completely wasted on a crackdown. Crackdown makes the enemy want to come to you. Thicket is useless on crackdown.
I beg to differ. You don't use the Thicket to stop them from coming to you. You use it to stop them from getting away. After all, you don't have to take the AoO for them incoming (and if you have Stormguard Warrior, it just helps you kill them when you do attack).
===Aelryinth
Seriously, robilar's.
I also wanted to add that it was kind of frustrating seeing how most of the replies where focused on debating rules semantics rather than contributing to the purpose the thread.
I am going to make new thread hopefully this one will have a more positive response.
Thanks anyway to everyone who replied.
@aelrynth : IMO, lockdown did make you Divine Rank 1 - but it won't stop people disliking your portfolio and disagreeing with you. ;)