Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 afroakuma May 30, 2009 14:47:35	Hello, Gleemax! A new build challenge has landed in front of me, this one a tiered exercise. I am constructing a villain at five tiers, CRs 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20. The primary stipulations are: A) He's a merfolk at CR 4, a non-aquatic humanoid at CR 8, and chooses at will every other time. B) He's something of a gish, and his original casting class is sorcerer. Now, I have builds for CR 4 and 8 that have been proposed, along with a rough trajectory, but I'd like some help assessing what has gone before and where I should take it. The CR 4 build: Show Prince Meridius Medium Humanoid (Aquatic) Merfolk Level 4 Sorcerer HD 4d4+12 (22 hp) Speed 5 ft. (1 square); swim 50 ft. Init: +7 AC 15; touch 15; flat-footed 10 (+5 Dex, +1 deflection, -1 trait) BAB +2; Grp +2 Attack Masterwork dagger +8 melee (1d4, 19-20/x2) or shocking grasp +7 melee (4d6 electric) or light crossbow +7 ranged (1d8, 19-20/x2) Full Attack Masterwork dagger +8 melee (1d4, 19-20/x2) or shocking grasp +7 melee (4d6 electric) or light crossbow +7 ranged (1d8, 19-20/x2) Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. Special Attacks Spells Special Qualities Amphibious, low-light vision Saves Fort +5 Ref +7 Will +9 Abilities Str 11, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 20 Skills Concentration +9, Diplomacy +7, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (arcana) +8 Feats Easy Metamagic (Empower Spell), Easy Metamagic (Split Ray), Empower Spell, Split Ray, Weapon Finesse Traits Aggressive Flaws Cold-Blooded, Solitary Villain Challenge Rating 4 Alignment Neutral evil Combat When Meridius anticipates trouble, he will immediately don mage armor and conjure a shield from his magerings. If pressed into combat, he will employ ray of enfeeblement against any potential threats and shocking grasp against definite ones. Meridius is not above taking the form of a locathah, aquatic elf or even drowned human is he believes it will suit his needs. Meridius anticipates most conflict and will usually be prepared to do battle. If he has good reason to fear his own safety, he will employ his web and glitterdust magerings to confine groups which he can then shock to death or have dragged off at his leisure. Spells Sorcerer Spells Known (6/8/4; save DC 15 + spell level): 0th - detect magic, detect poison, ray of frost, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue. 1st – charm person, ray of enfeeblement, shocking grasp. 2nd - alter self. Caster level 4th, save DCs Charisma-based. Amphibious (Ex) Meridius can breathe both air and water, although he rarely travels more than a few feet from the water’s edge in merman form. Skills Prince Meridius has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. He can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. He can use the run action while swimming, provided he swims in a straight line. Equipment Meridius has taken to wearing a black sharkskin vest and a belt of wrapped orange silk. He bears many rings on his gloved hands, some of which are secretly magerings. A ring of protection +1 made of blue coral is nestled among the rings on his right hand. A billowing, layered cloak of resistance +1 rests over his shoulders, iridescent in blue, navy, orange and gold. His gloves are black gloves of Dexterity +2 with sapphire and pearl trim. He wears a magering of mage armor with 50 charges and a magering of glitterdust with 10 charges on his left hand and a magering of shield with 50 charges and a magering of web with 10 charges on his right. In his quarters, Meridius retains a potion of fox's cunning and four potions of cure light wounds. Prince Meridius has double the wealth of a character of his level, owing to his noble birth and resources.
#2 sofawall May 31, 2009 0:09:04	I liked it more in Spoilers, like on BG... EDIT: OH ****! I didn't notice it was AfroAkuma! Avoiding builds now... I'm in your "tiered contest" on GitP.
#3 dr_rocktopus May 31, 2009 0:34:30	It's really unfortunate that I'm in your contest as well, because exotica is my specialty. Perhaps I can help you more directly with the next test of might?
#4 afroakuma May 31, 2009 10:30:14	I like it more in spoilers too, but on this board they convert into black bars, which was really unattractive. It's cool to see I'm running into you guys here as well; :D but yeah; once he's tricked out he's coming to kill you all, so... no peeking!
#5 sofawall May 31, 2009 10:57:23	Oh, the code here isn't [*spoliers], it's [*sblock], alternatively, [*sblock=fishyman] = fishyman O NOEZ A FISHGISH!
#6 afroakuma May 31, 2009 11:53:27	Awesome. I've doctored it back up. Is anyone not already planning to fight this guy at some point? ;)
#7 eldritch_lord May 31, 2009 12:39:38	Is anyone not already planning to fight this guy at some point? ;) Well, I'm on GitP too (PairO'Dice Lost) but I'm not taking part in the contest, so I can give you a hand with it. EDIT: CR 8 Advice Looking at the CR 8 build, I would definitely swap the Fighter level for Warblade and the Spellsword level for Jade Phoenix Mage. The Warblade gets d12 HD and can add their Int to Reflex saves at first level, and for a solitary villain +2 Ref and +1 HP per level can really help. Iron Heart and Diamond Mind are very good defensively, which again helps a solitary villain. Jade Phoenix Mage advances martial progression, so by definition it's better for a warblade/caster than any other arcane gish PrC. So here's what I'd choose for maneuvers. Steel Wind (Iron Heart 1) lets you attack 2 opponents, which is good when outnumbered. Emerald Razor (Diamond Mind 2) lets you make a single attack as a touch attack, which is very handy combined with the JPM's Arcane Wrath ability. Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw 1) lets you move as a swift action, so you can cast a full-round action sorcerer spell with metamagic applied and still move. For a stance, I'd go with Blood in the Water (Tiger Claw 1), since it's really the only one you have access to at this level which might help. At 8th level, he should pick up Revitalizing Strike (Devoted Spirit 3), so he can heal himself without spending an action on his potions.
#8 afroakuma May 31, 2009 16:04:20	Definitely some tempting ideas there; I'm not personally too familiar with ToB. Now; from what I remember reading, the Int bonus to Reflex is capped at warblade class levels, no? That would be a flat +1. Th d12 is tempting, though. JPM will cheat me out of another caster level to get 5 levels in, and I'm worried about the fact that Meridius favors touch attacks charged with a spell, which Steel Wind won't carry onto both. I'd like to see the structure of a ToB-influenced build before committing, but it does appear to have its merits. How valuable would a 1-level dip in bladedancer be?
#9 dr_rocktopus May 31, 2009 16:15:14	Let me be blunt, and I do not mean to be an ass. If you plan to have melee characters, become familiar with ToB. It's not always the best option, it's true, but it's a superbly wide ranging and well designed system which I consider worth having at your side. I cannot help, obviously, beyond this recommendation. ToB == GOOD.
#10 eldritch_lord May 31, 2009 16:37:01	Definitely some tempting ideas there; I'm not personally too familiar with ToB. I second the Rocktopus--ToB is Pelor's gift to melee-kind. Now; from what I remember reading, the Int bonus to Reflex is capped at warblade class levels, no? That would be a flat +1. Th d12 is tempting, though. It is indeed, but remember that he'll probably take more levels of warblade, so he can get that second +1, just not immediately. We're taking the long view here. JPM will cheat me out of another caster level to get 5 levels in, and I'm worried about the fact that Meridius favors touch attacks charged with a spell, which Steel Wind won't carry onto both. Who said we're going all the way with JPM? ;) I was actually going to suggest taking 3 levels of duskblade so you could attack and shocking grasp at the same time. And Steel Wind won't necessarily carry onto both, but the idea is to use it when you're outnumbered--if he goes and shocking grasps someone and another PC comes in to help, you attack both of them and move away. It's not the best maneuver out there for a gish, but since it's refreshable it saves you from using up an area spell so you can focus on touch spells and buffs. I'd like to see the structure of a ToB-influenced build before committing, but it does appear to have its merits. Well, if you like the direction that it's going, I can sketch out a possible progression and see if you like it. How valuable would a 1-level dip in bladedancer be? It would be very nice. The extra speed would help keep him at range for buffing and would allow him to get close enough for touch attacks, and the "no limitation on jump distance" feature would synergize very nicely with Sudden Leap.
#11 afroakuma May 31, 2009 17:13:02	I second the Rocktopus--ToB is Pelor's gift to melee-kind. Oh, believe me, I'm aware; I have a copy, I've just never had the time to familiarize myself with it. It is indeed, but remember that he'll probably take more levels of warblade, so he can get that second +1, just not immediately. We're taking the long view here. My POV is still locked on caster level and spell availability, hence my slightly limiting viewpoint. Were it not for that, I'd already have a Battle Stalwart sorcerer. Who said we're going all the way with JPM? ;) I was actually going to suggest taking 3 levels of duskblade so you could attack and shocking grasp at the same time. I had assumed 5 levels. Duskblade? Huh... I had thought of it, but won't that just wreck his casting? He does trade up with his spells - vampiric touch when it becomes available, for example. And Steel Wind won't necessarily carry onto both, but the idea is to use it when you're outnumbered--if he goes and shocking grasps someone and another PC comes in to help, you attack both of them and move away. It's not the best maneuver out there for a gish, but since it's refreshable it saves you from using up an area spell so you can focus on touch spells and buffs. Fair enough. Well, if you like the direction that it's going, I can sketch out a possible progression and see if you like it. If you have the time, then by all means. It would be very nice. The extra speed would help keep him at range for buffing and would allow him to get close enough for touch attacks, and the "no limitation on jump distance" feature would synergize very nicely with Sudden Leap. All from one level, eh? I just wanted the Cha to AC, but I'll take whatever else it offers. :D
#12 eldritch_lord May 31, 2009 21:03:31	My POV is still locked on caster level and spell availability, hence my slightly limiting viewpoint. Were it not for that, I'd already have a Battle Stalwart sorcerer. One of the benefits of martial adept classes is that you add 1/2 levels in all other classes to determine initiator level. He can take that level of warblade now and then, after advancing wizard quite a bit, take a second level to get much higher level maneuvers and that extra +1 as a bonus. I had assumed 5 levels. Duskblade? Huh... I had thought of it, but won't that just wreck his casting? He does trade up with his spells - vampiric touch when it becomes available, for example. Well, normally yes, a wizard wouldn't want to touch duskblade with his standard-issue 10 foot pole. A gish focused on touch spells, though? You give up 3 levels of wizard casting for more lower-level spells (like, oh, shocking grasp) and the ability to cast and attack with a standard action. That frees up some of your wizard slots for buffs and increases your damage per action; looks like a win-win situation to me. You give up a level of casting for JPM as well, but look at it this way--if he goes duskblade and trades out his dagger for, oh, a longsword, he gives up 4 levels of casting for the ability to deal a longsword attack at a +19 for 1d8 (19-20/x2) + 5d6 electricity + 2d10 untyped damage with a 2nd-level spell expended. Pick up Arcane Strike and for the cost of 2 2nd-level spells instead of one, you're doing +21 vs. touch AC for 5d6 + 2d10 + 2d4. Sucks for a wizard, great for a gish. Now, this focuses heavily on the melee side of things. If you want to focus mostly on the casting (which it appears you do, which I didn't realize, and which I approve of), he'd want to take a different tack, but I did want to put that idea out there. So, if you want to focus mostly on the casting side, we would instead want to go with Abjurant Champion for the next few levels, or, hmm...if you have access to Dragonlance material we could go War Mage. If you're going to focus on a single touch spell the Arcane Thesis + metamagic route would be a good one too, with Incantatrix or Hathran if you can use FR stuff. Can you tell us what sources you can use, or is there somewhere where they're listed? All from one level, eh? I just wanted the Cha to AC, but I'll take whatever else it offers. :D Yay for dips, huh? :D
#13 dr_rocktopus May 31, 2009 22:00:09	I'd push the Arcane Archer over the duskblade. 2 levels versus 3, homebrew a variant that doesn't care about elves.
#14 eldritch_lord Jun 01, 2009 11:56:19	I'd push the Arcane Archer over the duskblade. 2 levels versus 3, homebrew a variant that doesn't care about elves. Well, if we're homebrewing stuff anyway, we'd just make a PrC that advances casting and gives Arcane Wrath and Arcane Channeling, but I wasn't aware homebrew was allowed.
#15 guide_seneschal Jun 01, 2009 13:20:36	Ugh, adapting it to not care about elves is different from offering up a totally imba variation. As for the homebrew bit, AA's challenge involves a moderate quantity of homebrew.
#16 afroakuma Jun 01, 2009 17:20:50	Oh, we can homebrew a bit, as long as we behave ourselves. One of the benefits of martial adept classes is that you add 1/2 levels in all other classes to determine initiator level. He can take that level of warblade now and then, after advancing wizard quite a bit, take a second level to get much higher level maneuvers and that extra +1 as a bonus. Ooh, you're right; I forgot about that. Now, this focuses heavily on the melee side of things. If you want to focus mostly on the casting (which it appears you do, which I didn't realize, and which I approve of), he'd want to take a different tack, but I did want to put that idea out there. Well, I normally like the melee stuff, but seeing as how he just got tripped, grappled, dragged into his own web and Sudden Maximize shocking grasped (the latter by a duskblade, no less) I'm feeling the melee a little less. So, if you want to focus mostly on the casting side, we would instead want to go with Abjurant Champion for the next few levels, or, hmm...if you have access to Dragonlance material we could go War Mage. If you're going to focus on a single touch spell the Arcane Thesis + metamagic route would be a good one too, with Incantatrix or Hathran if you can use FR stuff. Can you tell us what sources you can use, or is there somewhere where they're listed? Technically, any and all. I'd prefer avoiding Incantatrix if at all possible (the players aren't allowed to even breathe the word; it would be unfair of me to exploit it) and I doubt Hathran will fit from a fluff standpoint. I'm not familiar with War Mage, though.
#17 dr_rocktopus Jun 01, 2009 18:17:15	War Mage is a fantastic class that you should use gingerly but with some degree of gusto. It's in Age of Mortals, which is a surprisingly solid book over-all, with a number of good offerings.
#18 eldritch_lord Jun 01, 2009 21:10:00	Technically, any and all. I'd prefer avoiding Incantatrix if at all possible (the players aren't allowed to even breathe the word; it would be unfair of me to exploit it) and I doubt Hathran will fit from a fluff standpoint. I'm not familiar with War Mage, though. War Mage is a very nice little prestige class. With 5 levels, you get 5 levels of casting, 2 bonus metamagic feats from a particular list (including Maximize, the only one on the list that really helps touch-spell users), and +3 damage per die for each spell you cast. That gets you a 5d6+15 shocking grasp, or better yet a 10d6+30 vampiric touch, with no loss of casting and free metamagic to boot! Slap on Empower and your vampiric touch is dealing and healing an average of 65 damage from a 4th level slot, or (if you're only fighting one battle per day) grab Sudden Maximize for 90 damage from the same slot. So, for your 12th level build, I'd suggest 4 levels of War Mage. That'll net you +2 damage per die and Maximize Spell. For your 9th level feat, take Easy Metamagic (Maximize) and for the 12th level take Arcane Thesis (Vampiric Touch). That lets you cast a maximized empowered vampiric touch out of a 4th level slot for 80 plus 5d6+10 damage. Quite respectable at that level.
#19 afroakuma Jun 01, 2009 22:34:40	Very violent indeed! Alright, so let's chart this out, here: Sor1 Sor2 Sor3 Sor4 Warb1 ? ? ? WarM1 WarM2 WarM3 WarM4 And we're still searching for Abjurant Champion spots. Tell you what, though; I'm going to homebrew over that class, because Meridius doesn't give a darn about his allies, and in fact has a flaw that impedes him using them in melee. So I'll retain the wonderful bonus damage (and learn him magic missile, 5d4+20 virtually inescapable long-range damage hooray!) and replace that silly Aegis with something more useful. Ideas? Also, assuming I go either Battle or Stalwart (or both), what should my spell selection look like?
#20 dr_rocktopus Jun 02, 2009 0:11:43	Keep the Aegis! Such a nice ability even if you use it very little. WM is powerful enough already.
#21 eldritch_lord Jun 02, 2009 11:47:56	Alright, so let's chart this out, here: Sor1 Sor2 Sor3 Sor4 Warb1 ? ? ? WarM1 WarM2 WarM3 WarM4 And we're still searching for Abjurant Champion spots. Well, if he's going to be going long-range now, there's not need for duskblade or JPM. In that case, I'd rearrange the levels like so: Sor1 Sor2 Sor3 Sor4 Warb1 Sor5 Mindbender1 WarM1 WarM2 WarM3 WarM4 AbjChamp1 The level of Mindbender gives him telepathy, so give him the Mindsight feat (Lords of Madness) and he can auto-detect any intelligent creature within telepathy range (100 feet). That also progresses his casting to get him into War Mage, and he has +5 BAB by WarM4, just in time to get him into Abjurant Champion. Tell you what, though; I'm going to homebrew over that class, because Meridius doesn't give a darn about his allies, and in fact has a flaw that impedes him using them in melee. So I'll retain the wonderful bonus damage (and learn him magic missile, 5d4+20 virtually inescapable long-range damage hooray!) and replace that silly Aegis with something more useful. Ideas? Well...keep in mind that you count as your own ally.... ;) If you don't want to Aegis yourself, you might want to replace that with some sort of Battlefield Mobility that lets you teleport 10 feet or so as a supernatural ability; that would get him out of melee range without taking AoOs. Also, assuming I go either Battle or Stalwart (or both), what should my spell selection look like? I'll have to get back to you on that one.
#22 afroakuma Jun 02, 2009 15:38:15	Hmm... I think I can live without mindsight, but I'll keep it in mind (no pun intended). Is there anything better that I could sub in over Sor5? I still intend a fair touch focus, but it needs to be supplemented with range. He had no range at CR 4, which is what ruined him.
#23 eldritch_lord Jun 02, 2009 18:06:52	Hmm... I think I can live without mindsight, but I'll keep it in mind (no pun intended). Is there anything better that I could sub in over Sor5? Not really; anything of any worth requires 4th level spells (Fatespinner) or 5th level spells (Argent Savant). 5th level spells, for Argent Savant? Seriously? Mindbender was the only thing I could find that advanced casting, had easy prereqs, and gave something worthwhile. I still intend a fair touch focus, but it needs to be supplemented with range. He had no range at CR 4, which is what ruined him. Oh, of course, but giving up those casting levels for JPM or duskblade isn't worth it unless your focus is on nothing but touch spells. If he's going to add some range, War Mage + Abjurant Champion is much better. Hmm...do you have access to Dragon Magazine? If he's going to be using magic missile a lot, you might want to look at the Force Missile Mage.
#24 afroakuma Jun 02, 2009 18:49:12	Not really; anything of any worth requires 4th level spells (Fatespinner) or 5th level spells (Argent Savant). 5th level spells, for Argent Savant? Seriously? Mindbender was the only thing I could find that advanced casting, had easy prereqs, and gave something worthwhile. I see your point. Oh, of course, but giving up those casting levels for JPM or duskblade isn't worth it unless your focus is on nothing but touch spells. If he's going to add some range, War Mage + Abjurant Champion is much better. Duskblade would definitely dilute the mix; and I just realized that I can't take JPM - badguy is bad. That War Mage ability is going to make him better no matter what, but as I said I can live without the aegis, especially if I take what you've told me is a simply stellar 1-level dip in Blade Dancer. Hmm...do you have access to Dragon Magazine? If he's going to be using magic missile a lot, you might want to look at the Force Missile Mage. All of them. Still, I suggested magic missile as a supplemental range spell, so I think it best to keep out of such a focused class. Shame Argent Savant starts with a dead level; otherwise I'd consider a 2-level dip for the AC bonus on greater mage armor.
#25 xakypshalorn Jun 02, 2009 19:37:09	If you like the AC bonus on greater mage armor, you can pick up the same from a single level dip into Paragnostic Apostle (Complete Champion) Just make sure you pick up the appropriate ranks in Knowledge: Architecture first
#26 eldritch_lord Jun 02, 2009 21:56:36	That War Mage ability is going to make him better no matter what, but as I said I can live without the aegis, especially if I take what you've told me is a simply stellar 1-level dip in Blade Dancer. It is indeed stellar; you could easily have that be your 12th level instead of Abjurant Champion, it's simply a question of which benefits you'd prefer. All of them. Still, I suggested magic missile as a supplemental range spell, so I think it best to keep out of such a focused class. Point. If you're going for ranged spells in general, there's not really a go-to PrC for that, so your options are open.
#27 xakypshalorn Jun 02, 2009 22:08:11	It's probably not worth the levels it would eat, but War Wizard from Magic of Faerun gives full casting, 2 free metamagic feats (Which make up for Enlarge and Extend, the requirements), Lets you use the Widen Spell metamagic feat for free 1+ cha bonus times per day (pretty often for a Sorc, and often useful for catching foes that think themselve's safely spread out.) And at level 5, your Widen Spell feat doubles a spell's area instead of multiplying it by 1.5 Not a PrC that's easily optimized, but there are some perks to it, and it meshes decently with sorcerer. (though the title is wizard, funny I know.)
#28 afroakuma Jun 02, 2009 23:01:03	Alright, it looks like I was using the wrong terminology. I was thinking of Battle Dancer, which is Cha to AC. Now, I could just stuff sirine's grace into the minor artifact he owns... Alright; if we're sure that Arcane Aegis allows you to qualify as your own ally... then I suppose I can live with it. Does a morale bonus to AC work for touch and flat-footed, as well? If I were going to homebrew a PrC, what should I include?
#29 xakypshalorn Jun 03, 2009 1:10:59	Yes it does AfroAkuma. Morale bonuses are neither Armor, Shield, nor Natural Armor, so they qualify for touch AC, and it's not dexterity bonus or dodge bonus, or otherwise specified conditional bonus, so it applies at all times it's active.
#30 eldritch_lord Jun 03, 2009 11:08:38	Alright, it looks like I was using the wrong terminology. I was thinking of Battle Dancer, which is Cha to AC. Well, if nothing else presents itself later on, you can always dip both of them. Alright; if we're sure that Arcane Aegis allows you to qualify as your own ally... then I suppose I can live with it. You always qualify as your own ally: ally: A creature friendly to you. Unless otherwise noted, references to "allies" include yourself. It's exactly this rule that makes things like White Raven Tactics in ToB somewhat broken, since they didn't specify you can't use it on yourself, but otherwise it's very handy. :D If I were going to homebrew a PrC, what should I include? He's pretty much got all the things he needs to be a good casting-focused gish at the moment. You could borrow Quick Cast from the duskblade (1/day cast a quickened spell without adjusting spell level), and maybe add in Twin Cast (same for Twin Spell).
#31 afroakuma Jun 03, 2009 14:25:49	Well, if nothing else presents itself later on, you can always dip both of them. You always qualify as your own ally: In that case, I think I'll add it to the homebrew. I'll look into Quick and Twin Cast... we'll see what I come up with in a bit.
#32 afroakuma Jun 03, 2009 23:18:48	Alright, here's what I settled on for a homebrew PrC; let me know what you think: The Imperator Show Prerequisites Alignment Any evil Base Attack +3 Feats Combat Casting, any metamagic feat Flaws At least one flaw Skills Concentration 8 ranks, Intimidate 8 ranks, Knowledge (Nobility and royalty) 4 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks Spells Able to spontaneously cast 3rd-level arcane spells Hit Die d4 Class Skills The imperator's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). Skill Points per Level 2 + Intelligence modifier The Imperator Level| BAB| Fort| Ref| Will| Class Features| Spellcasting 1st| +0| +0| +0| +2| Ineffable bulwark, arcane attack +1| +1 level of existing spellcasting class 2nd| +1| +0| +0| +3| Metamagic feat| +1 level of existing spellcasting class 3rd| +1| +1| +1| +3| Quick cast 1/day, arcane attack +2| +1 level of existing spellcasting class 4th| +2| +1| +1| +4| Metamagic feat| +1 level of existing spellcasting class 5th| +2| +1| +1| +4| Quick cast 2/day, arcane attack +3| +1 level of existing spellcasting class Ineffable Bulwark (Su) As long as an imperator retains his composure, his dark, arrogant confidence channels his morale into an aura of unquestionable defense. An imperator gains a morale bonus to his AC equal to his Charisma bonus provided he is not currently confused, cowering, dazed, exhausted, frightened, nauseated, panicked, shaken or sickened. Arcane Attack (Su) An imperator specializes in forceful attack magic, and practices to hone his talents in arcane violence. A 1st-level imperator gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls with spells that require them, and deals an extra +1 damage per die with all damaging spells. An imperator's spells are also treated as being 1 level higher to overcome spell resistance and dispelling. These bonuses increase to 2 at 3rd level and 3 at 5th. Metamagic Feat At 2nd and 4th level, the imperator can select a metamagic feat for which he has the prerequisites as a bonus feat. Quick Cast (Su) At 3rd level, the imperator can cast one spell per day as a swift action. At 5th level, he gains an additional use of this ability. An imperator can only quick cast spells of his class level or lower.
#33 eldritch_lord Jun 04, 2009 13:20:01	Flaws At least one flaw The only issue I see is that this is a bit too specific. An imperator should be skilled, should have metamagic, should be merciless...but why flawed? Yes, it fits this guy, but prerequisites should be more general. I see your forum lacks a [table] tag. Hey, it's not my forum. ;) If I were to code a forum I would include a [table] tag, but WotC decided to use a forum system without it.
#34 afroakuma Jun 04, 2009 13:29:39	Alright, I'll drop the Flaw requirement. Other than that, is it reasonable as a PrC? Not excessive in balance terms? And if it works, where do we go from here?
#35 endalia Jun 04, 2009 14:08:57	Alright, I'll drop the Flaw requirement. Other than that, is it reasonable as a PrC? Not excessive in balance terms? And if it works, where do we go from here? Well, not excessive in balance terms. It's pretty much a War Mage with a re-flavour. I have a question though: the Battle Dancer PrC you talked about. Where is it from?
#36 emy Jun 04, 2009 14:19:39	Well, not excessive in balance terms. It's pretty much a War Mage with a re-flavour. I have a question though: the Battle Dancer PrC you talked about. Where is it from? Battle Dancer is from Dragon Compendium. It's similar to a Charisma-based monk.
#37 endalia Jun 04, 2009 14:27:43	Battle Dancer is from Dragon Compendium. It's similar to a Charisma-based monk. Thanks. Unfortunately, I don't have the Dragon Compendium Oh, well, I'll live ;)
#38 afroakuma Jun 04, 2009 14:31:54	Blade Dancer was the PrC, from Oriental Adventures. Battle Dancer was a base class from Dragon Compendium.
#39 afroakuma Jun 04, 2009 21:06:22	Update: Well, I just found out that Abjurant Champion is largely useless to me, having neglected to remember that mage armor is not an abjuration and does not qualify for the Abjurant Armor ability. Huh. In which case, I can essentially derive close to the same benefit, AC-wise, from a single level of Paragnostic Apostle. So; with that cornerstone of my plans shattered; where shall I go?
#40 eldritch_lord Jun 04, 2009 23:10:09	Update: Well, I just found out that Abjurant Champion is largely useless to me, having neglected to remember that mage armor is not an abjuration and does not qualify for the Abjurant Armor ability. Huh. Yeah. Given that the sample character is shown to benefit from that ability with mage armor, it's obvious that that was an oversight and that the dev working on AbjChamp though it was Abjuration. You can easily rule that it applies to any spell granting an armor bonus; if you don't want to... In which case, I can essentially derive close to the same benefit, AC-wise, from a single level of Paragnostic Apostle. ...that's what you want to do. So; with that cornerstone of my plans shattered; where shall I go? Well, by that point you should have 4th level spells, I believe, so Fatespinner is always an option.
#41 afroakuma Jun 05, 2009 8:08:07	Yeah; I already meddled with one prestige class to my absolute, unquestionable advantage... won't do so a second time; it starts to reek of cheatery. So, 1 level dip of Paragnostic Apostle, and.... 4 in Fatespinner. Coupled with Sorc 5 and Imperator 5, that's 15. How to finish it, and how to stick it together?
#42 eldritch_lord Jun 05, 2009 18:30:39	Yeah; I already meddled with one prestige class to my absolute, unquestionable advantage... won't do so a second time; it starts to reek of cheatery. So, 1 level dip of Paragnostic Apostle, and.... 4 in Fatespinner. Coupled with Sorc 5 and Imperator 5, that's 15. How to finish it, and how to stick it together? Divine Oracle's always a good choice; I can't think of anything super-amazing that you absolutely must have to cap this off--aside from the old standbys of Incantatrix, Iot7V, etc., of course.
#43 afroakuma Jun 06, 2009 18:25:50	Incantatrix and IotSV are out, unfortunately. If at all possible, I'd like to ramp up my BAB and/or weak saves while still progessing spellcasting. So Mindbender 1 looks like a promising dip again; Wildmage 1 would shore up Reflex at a permanent expense... Otherwise, I have no ideas. Anyone have an opinion?
#44 eldritch_lord Jun 06, 2009 23:54:12	Incantatrix and IotSV are out, unfortunately. If at all possible, I'd like to ramp up my BAB and/or weak saves while still progessing spellcasting. So Mindbender 1 looks like a promising dip again; Wildmage 1 would shore up Reflex at a permanent expense... Otherwise, I have no ideas. Anyone have an opinion? Well, if you want to keep BAB up, there's always the Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Spellsword....If the important part is full BAB and full or almost full casting you can basically pick and choose and ignore the class abilities. I personally would go with Abjurant Champion, since you can sac spells as a swift action for attack and damage bonuses.
#45 afroakuma Jun 12, 2009 21:50:04	What I've settled on is: Sor 1 Sor 2 Sor 3 Sor 4 Sor 5 Imperator 1 Imperator 2 Imperator 3 Imperator 4 Imperator 5 Abjurant Champion 1 Abjurant Champion 2 Abjurant Champion 3 Abjurant Champion 4 Fatespinner 1 Fatespinner 2 Fatespinner 3 Fatespinner 4 Paragnostic Apostle 1 Mindbender 1 Any recommendations on the best order to make him optimal at each tier? (8, 12, 16 and 20, for those who don't recall) Assuming I go Stalwart sorcerer, what would my best spell selection look like? And is there any must-have gear or feat?
#46 eldritch_lord Jun 13, 2009 12:13:40	What I've settled on is: Sor 1 Sor 2 Sor 3 Sor 4 Sor 5 Imperator 1 Imperator 2 Imperator 3 Imperator 4 Imperator 5 Abjurant Champion 1 Abjurant Champion 2 Abjurant Champion 3 Abjurant Champion 4 Fatespinner 1 Fatespinner 2 Fatespinner 3 Fatespinner 4 Paragnostic Apostle 1 Mindbender 1 Any recommendations on the best order to make him optimal at each tier? (8, 12, 16 and 20, for those who don't recall) The only change in class order that would really make a noticeable difference at each tier would be moving Sor 5 around and moving everything else up...but since it's needed for prereqs and we can't get rid of it, that order is as good as you're going to get. Assuming I go Stalwart sorcerer, what would my best spell selection look like? And is there any must-have gear or feat? Must-have spells...I'd pick up disintegrate at some point; you're getting +X damage per die, so the more dice you have, the better. Contingency is also a good pick. You should definitely have shield for Abjurant Champion and pick up a save-or-die to make use of Fatespinner. Otherwise, you really can't go wrong picking up at least one blasty spell and one buff spell per spell level. Must-have feats: metamagic, metamagic, metamagic. If you're focusing on one spell, pick up Arcane Thesis with that spell, plus Easy and Practical Metamagic with various feats. Blasters and gishes need metamagic more than anything else. Arcane Strike could also be nice when using touch spells, but it isn't necessary. Items...hmm. Belt of Battle for extra actions and the Big 6 for stat-boosters is all you really need. Casters (even gish types) aren't nearly as dependent on particular item choice as others, because they can compensate with buffs and such. With your reduced spells known you'll definitely need all of the Big 6 (as opposed to wizards, who basically need a headband of intellect and a spellbook), but otherwise it's up to personal preference.
#47 afroakuma Jun 16, 2009 8:46:58	So you're saying the optimal middle tiers are Sor5/Imp3, Sor5/Imp5/AbjC2, Sor5/Imp5/AbjC5/Fat1? Because I literally and deliberately just stacked all similar levels on top of one another and massed the dips at the end. You're saying the dips would not be more useful to the individual tiers?
#48 eldritch_lord Jun 16, 2009 12:17:05	So you're saying the optimal middle tiers are Sor5/Imp3, Sor5/Imp5/AbjC2, Sor5/Imp5/AbjC5/Fat1? Because I literally and deliberately just stacked all similar levels on top of one another and massed the dips at the end. You're saying the dips would not be more useful to the individual tiers? Sor 5/Imp 3 gets you the extra +1 to each die; putting a dip or two in there would make you miss out on that until the next tier. Sor 5/Imp 5/AbjChamp 2 gets you the ability to cast abjurations as swift actions, letting you buff and attack in the same round; putting a dip or two in there would make you miss out on that until the next tier. Sor 5/Imp 5/AbjChamp 5/Fate 1 gets you the ability to manipulate your DC by 1 once per day, which is about even with one of the ParApostle's +1 to X abilities; putting a dip or two in there would make you miss out on that until the next tier. You might want to switch Mindbender with Fatespinner 1 and bump the rest up a few levels, but you said you're not going for Mindsight, which is the only reason you'd want to do that. It's surprising how often "take PrC until you finish it, repeat" works for casters (and how often it doesn't for melee types). ;)
#49 dr_rocktopus Jun 16, 2009 14:06:26	This is remarkably true. Part of it is that outside of ToB, there are almost no martial PrCs that are longer than three levels.
#50 true_shinken Jun 16, 2009 17:46:41	It's surprising how often "take PrC until you finish it, repeat" works for casters (and how often it doesn't for melee types). ;) I don't find that to be at all surprising. Caster classes usually get just a few class features apart from spellcasting so they don't sacrifice much (if at all) by PrCing. Noncasters though depend a lot more on their class features to function, so taking full PrCs might hurt them in that they are at least partially giving up their original class abilities.
#51 eldritch_lord Jun 16, 2009 21:04:12	I don't find that to be at all surprising. You shouldn't, hence the ironic ;) smiley. I was just pointing out that he should expect a straight-up in-order X 5/Y 10/Z 5 to work best for a caster and an excruciatingly-well-planned A 1/B 4/C 2/D 5/E 1/F 2/G 3/H 2 to work best for a noncaster.
#52 true_shinken Jun 16, 2009 21:23:20	You shouldn't, hence the ironic ;) smiley. I was just pointing out that he should expect a straight-up in-order X 5/Y 10/Z 5 to work best for a caster and an excruciatingly-well-planned A 1/B 4/C 2/D 5/E 1/F 2/G 3/H 2 to work best for a noncaster. Oh, totally granted.
#53 afroakuma Jun 18, 2009 1:25:06	Alright, awesome. Just wanted to confirm. Now to just set him up with spells, feats and gear. ...wonder if I should give him an item of legacy? :P
#54 sofawall Jun 18, 2009 2:53:59	Never flat-footed is nice, but unlikely to be useful for your challenge.