Alright, I want to build the Ultimate Gish, but I'm unsure on how I want it to work. So I need the infinite wisdom of the CO board.
Here's the challenge; I need a Gish that can compete with the other OP Melee characters in my group, without losing caster levels, & having a diversified spell list with, if able, 9 lvl Arcane spells. My stats:
-Race: Human, Grey Elf, or Drow [perferablly human]
- Str: 18
- Dex:16
- Con: 15
- Int: 18
- Wis: 14
- Cha: 16
And I will be partying with:
- A Dragonborn Ranger/Rouge/Fighter/Dervish
- An Aasimar Paladin/Fighter/Vassal of Bahamut
- A Dwarf Crusader/Fighter/Cleric
I can use all WotC material, no Psionics, & no 3rd party content. My DM generally liberal & fair but can be strict.
Here are some builds I was considereding:
- Duskblade 3/Wizard 2/Ultimate Magus 6/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 5 -BAB of 16, Wizard Casting of 16 spell level, Duskblade Casting of 7 (2nd level spells), Arcane Channel any touch spell as a standard action into an attack. All works on Int. The only thing I don't like is not being able to full channel.
- Duskblade 13/Swordsage 2/ Teflammar Shadowlord 5 (Full Channeling, extra Full Attack, spell list sucks, & I gain some manuvers)
- Duskblade 3/Wizard xxx/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage xxx/Ulimate Magus xxx (Work in progress.)
- Duskblade xxx/Spellthief xxx/Daggerspell mage xxx (work in progress; steal a spell then channel it against the caster.)
Thoughts? Builds? I'd like find out what Gish would work better mechanically.
< Reserved for other Builds/Ideas if I need it >
What is your starting level? At high levels, you can buy a skillful weapon, which gives you proficiency with it and base attack bonus equal to ¾ your hit dice. You can also wear this armor with no spell failure or need for proficiency.
You could try crusader 1 / wizard 5 / jade phoenix mage 1 / spellsword 1 / abjurant champion 5 / jade phoenix mage +7. That's base attack bonus 17, wizard casting 17, and some maneuvers.
You could try crusader 1 / wizard 5 / jade phoenix mage 1 / spellsword 1 / abjurant champion 5 / jade phoenix mage +7. That's base attack bonus 17, wizard casting 17, and some maneuvers.
I would think similiar to this, only wizard 5/crusader 1/ JPM 2/ Ab Champ 4/ JPM 8. Also +17 BAB and casting as 17th lvl wizard, but delays taking Crusader and JPM so you can take advantage of higher level maneuvers.
The one level of Spellsword gives you ignore 10% spell failure, which if you wear that armor, or rely on greater mage armor, is unecessary. If you wanted it though, you could drop 1 level of JPM, but I rather like Emerald Immoliation. I would take it earlier in the build though, keep the levels of JPM towards to back end of the build to get better manuevers, since you can't change them.
The 5th level of Ab. Champ only gets you martial arcanist, it doesn't even increase a save. Martial arcanist won't do you any good since you have a 17 BAB and caster level, and will probably take the Practiced Spellcaster feat at some point.
You probably also want the arcane strike feat, if you didn't already know.
Side note: I'm not a big fan of Duskblade as Gishes, and full channel has never really seemed worth it to me considering the speel can only affect each target once.
All good points, though the extra level of abjurant champion does provide +2 AC if you use greater luminous armor and shield.
I see a lot of melee in the list of classes your party is planning to play. Maybe something ranged and supportive yet still gish.
Bard 7/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3 - BAB 17, 9th level spells, decent amount of skill points, casting in light armor, Imbue Arrow tastiness. Requirements of Elf with the Militia or Otherworldly feat at first level.
Otherwise another melee support gish option would be Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8 - 17 BAB, 9th level spells, casting in light armor, fits nicely with Dragonfire Inspiration.
I saw "lose no caster levels" and "diverse casting list with 9th level spells" in the OP, but then all the example builds have a bunch of duskblade levels... What's up with that? 
There have been a bazzillion and 1 gish threads on here, and once upon a time there was even a thread titled "The ultimate gish contest". Links to many of these can be found in the Handy Links (whether they still work or not is another thing...).
Personally, I'd drop the Duskblade levels entirely (unless you decide to just be a duskblade). The benefit just isn't worth the cost of lost caster levels. If you really like spell channeling, but still want a decent spell list, maybe a bard/sublime chord with 5 levels of Spellsword?
Vanilla gish have no problems keeping up with other characters in general, though. Even if you went with something like a fighter 1/wiz 4/runesmith 2/abjurant champion 5/spellsword 1/eldritch knight build, you'd be able to perform just fine.
Personally, I prefer "Divine Power" gishes, that are actually just casters that cast Divine Power when they want to fight (or just run around with a Persistant one all the time). That way, you can take "real" caster PrCs, instead of having to waste your levels on things like Eldritch Knight and fighter. This works better if you're starting at the higher levels, but is certainly doable starting even at level 1. You'll just be a "plain caster" till you can cast Divine Power, though.
While Divine Power is certainly a great way to make yourself even better in melee, relying too much on it would probably be a bad idea, depending on your DM. The easiest way I can think of to get it on your spell list is Arcane Disciple: War, which limits you to 1/day and without DMM, you'd have to use a 9th level slot to persist it, or use metamagic reducers, either way your investing heavily into it.
Meanwhile, being able to fight in melee naturally all day has its own benefits, and having levels in a gish PrC gives you melee options a straight caster doesn't have (or need, depending on my powerful the caster is playing themself), such as having Devoted Spirits maneuvers and stances, like the ever useful Aura of Chaos. Theres also the minor benefit of levels with more than d4 HD.
And I don't think any of the old CO links for gish threads work anymore.
While Divine Power is certainly a great way to make yourself even better in melee, relying too much on it would probably be a bad idea, depending on your DM. The easiest way I can think of to get it on your spell list is Arcane Disciple: War, which limits you to 1/day and without DMM, you'd have to use a 9th level slot to persist it, or use metamagic reducers, either way your investing heavily into it.
An incantatrix can persist it without increasing the spell slot through several different methods, and incantatrix also is a fantastic full caster PrC. It only requires 3 levels of Incantatrix to pull this off, if you can boost your spellcraft DCs high enough.
A wizard/incantatrix 3/initiate of the 7-fold veil with Persistent Divine Power (for example) is far, far more deadly in melee than pretty much any "traditional" gish that you could ever hope to make.
In order to avoid totally derailing this thread into an argument about the benefits of "traditional" vs. "divine power" gishes, I will instead point you to the excellent thread on this topic (which does still work): community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Not to mention all the other tricks Wizards have up their sleeves. Persistent Wraithstrike and Draconic polymorph make sure there is no need for you to be bothered by pesky foes in melee again. Bite of the Werebear just adds insult to injury. A Pit fiend with these buffs would have a strength score of 63 and Power attack feat for free to go with that full BAB and touch attacks...
Yeah. It's been a while since I've been here, but let's hope this new layout doesn't drive me away again.
Thanks for the replies & build Ideas mates!
However is there any builds that include the Duskblade class? I know, "Why the Duskblade?" I just like the class, & I think arcane channeling rocks. While I know its "gish-in-a-can" I still dig the class even though it's spell list is gimped. I would like to through it in the mix, but if it won't work I'll drop it.
As far as Divine verses Arcane is concerned; I'd prefer to have an Arcane Gish, or a nice mix , but I doubt that's possible. "Harm" would be nice, lol. but I am going to take the arcane disciple feat eventually.
Oh!, & to answer Maat_Mons question the ECL starting is 6 going to 20.
As far as Divine verses Arcane is concerned; I'd prefer to have an Arcane Gish, or a nice mix , but I doubt that's possible. "Harm" would be nice, lol. but I am going to take the arcane disciple feat eventually.
Noone said anything at all about playing a divine character instead...
Duskblade is ok. The main limitation is the spell list, but there is quite a bit that can be done to improve that. Dips into Sandshaper, Wyrm Wizard, etc, and the Arcane Disciple feat, can all help out, as can various magic items like Knowstones.
I worked on a build for a while, but wound up dropping the whole thing and going with a psiwarrior instead. You can read my ramblings here: brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
I was especially interested in items that could expand his spell list, so make sure to look at that section. Ah hell... I'll just copy that part to here:
Equipment (wish list): Cloak of Charisma +X, guisarme, breastplate (mithril twilight fullplate of speed), Sudden Stunning weapon, Drake Helm (spells known, Explorers Handbook), Ring of Theurgy (spells known, CA), Gloves of the Starry Sky (Magic Missile, MIC 204), Belt of the Wide Earth (Teleport, MIC 204), Periapt of the Sullen Sea (Freedom of Movement, MIC 205), Knowstones (DR 333, add to spells known, priced as pearls of power, must be on spell list I think), Anklet of Translocation (MIC, swift action teleport 2/day, 1400 gp)
Build options: Sandshaper, Fiendblooded, Dragon Disciple, more Spellsword, Wyrm Wizard, Silver Pyromancer, Dracolexi, Sand Shaper, other.
Versatile spellcasting can actually allow you to cast spells of 1 level higher than your "max spell level" with a Duskblade, also. So definitely pick up that feat!
Well, if you must go with Duskblade how about Duskblade 9/ Prestige Bard 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Prestige Bard 1/ Spellsword 1/ Dragonslayer 1 - 18 BAB, 9th level spells, Duskblade channeling. You could drop the dragonslayer and insert some prestige class that grants +1 level of spellcasting, if you need the feats, since BAB would not be a real issue at that point (BAB of 17 at 19th level). Maybe Paragnostic Apostle or something.
To be honest, looking at your peers' builds I think you'll be able to compete very nicely with "just" a straight duskblade. None of them looks particularly optimized.
It does have some advantages: it's very simple, for one. If you like the flavor, I'd say go for it. It is a solid class.
If you go duskblade at all, you should consider two options: going duskblade13 for Arcane Channeling (full attack), a definate high in power, or dropping out a few levels early for 9th-level spells, such as gofnad suggested.
If you want to really up the power, go for PhaedrusXY's suggestions, but it looks like it will be too much for your group.
While I agree with Phaedrus in that an Incantrix/Initate of the Seven-fold Veil (possibly with Master Specialist) is both 7 flavours of awesome and tremendously powerful, keep in mind that it doesn't really become a melee character until level 8 when metamagic effect kicks in. Not only that, but to Persist a divine power from the war domain takes a DC 45 spellcraft check, if I'm not mistaken.
An interesting take on some of the Bardic gish builds mentioned earlier would be:
Cloistered Cleric 1/Bard 7/Paladin 2 (with Devoted Performer), Sublime Chord 2/ XXX 8
where XXX is any mixture of good gish PRCs like Abjurant Champion, Knight Phantom, Eldritch Knight, Sacred Exorcist, Dragonslayer1, Spellsword1, etc
Cloistered cleric should swap domains for Knowledge, Travel, and Animal devotions. Feats should include Arcane Strike, Snowflake Wardance, Divine Might, and similar. Snowflake Wardance prohibits the use of a shield, but an Animated Shield may allow use of Divine Shield.
Animated shield imposes the same penalties as carrying the shield though.
Animated shield imposes the same penalties as carrying the shield though.
Ah, ok. I never bothered to track down the verdict for that debate, so I wasn't sure.
Come to think of it, I see no reason why we can't incorporate metamagic incantrix shenanigans into the build I posted above.
Cloistered Cleric 1/Bard 4/ Incantrix 3/Paladin 2/Sublime Chord 2/xxx8
Play as an Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau for early entry into Incantrix. Use one of your Cloistered Cleric domains for Planning and the others for Knowlege Devotion and Travel or Animal Devotion
Feats would go 1-Improved Sigil (Krau) 3-Iron Will 6-Arcane Disciple (War) 9-Devoted Performer 12-Persistant Spell, and the rest coming from my list above. I'm not certain that this build is any stronger than the previous one, as it burns a lot of resources for one trick, but it is an alternative.
Oh, and don't forget Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows from Dragon for Cha to damage.
EDIT: Removed redundant divine metamagic reference
You can't use Divine Metamagic on arcane spells without some tricks (Alternate Spell Source, etc).
It seems that nobody has suggested the Swiftblade build.
I personally just took one into epic, I believe its wizard 6 Swiftblade 10, Jade pheonix mage 10
You have to use your bonus feats to get TOB maneuvers to qualify for jade pheonix (if your DM will allow that) but it hits hard.
Grab arcane strike for some good melee damage, and if you somehow manage to not get a full attack in, you can use arcane wrath (which is the same thing as arcane strike, just for only one attack)
It's been my favorite build in all my time in 3e.
the idea is basically using your spells to fuel Arcane strike, innervated speed (or time stop), and buffs (not in that order~)
You can't use Divine Metamagic on arcane spells without some tricks (Alternate Spell Source, etc).
Whoops, sorry, I meant incantrix metamagic. Edited the build above to remove the redundancy