I'm currently building a character to participate in an evil Forgotten Realms campaign. The characters are around L4-5, and pretty much all official sourcebooks (other than Complete Champion, Dragon magazines etc.) are allowed. The group currently consists of:
-Fey'ri Warblade4
-Human Crusader5
-Tiefling Kineticist3/Warmage1
Rules are:
-40pts. PB
-LA-Buyoff allowed
-Adaptions for classes/PrCs are allowed within reasonable limits
-Nightsticks don't stack ;)
That said, I think I'm going to be the divine caster in this group. The race will be a Human Necropolitan Swarmshifter (either Bat or Sand form, not sure yet). As for the build, I've been toying around with two ideas:
JaronK
See if you can get the Knight of the Green Lady approved by your DM. Its slightly better than Tenebrous Apostate for the spellcasting aspect.
Where's Knight of the Green Lady from?
edit: damn, looks like the Paizo boards got revamped. So much for that...
double edit: google fu:
http://paizo.com/dungeon/messageboards/generalDiscussion/archives/statsForTyralandiScrimm
Doesn't archivist grant you divine spells?
Doesn't anima mage need arcane ones?
How can you qualify for anima mage with archivist?
Doesn't archivist grant you divine spells?
Doesn't anima mage need arcane ones?
Check out the adaptation section of the Anima Mage: can be applied to psionics or divine casting.
Unless your DM is really 'nice'...or a moron...Walker in the Waste is a trap. It's akin to handing your DM a loaded weapon and saying, "pretty please, don't shoot me with my own gun."
At some point, he's going to do it, if only by accident.
Unless your DM is really 'nice'...or a moron...Walker in the Waste is a trap. It's akin to handing your DM a loaded weapon and saying, "pretty please, don't shoot me with my own gun."
At some point, he's going to do it, if only by accident.
?????
what???? Every time it rains you could die. That's not something I want to allow my DM to make the call on, given that he's (on at least some level) trying to kill me.
You take damage from water. Regular, always in the air we breath, water.
Every time it rains you could die. That's not something I want to allow my DM to make the call on, given that he's (on at least some level) trying to kill me.
By the time you gain the dry lich template you are level 15 or higher and thus are a spellcaster with 7th level spells. Thus you can avoid a mere thundercloud quite easily.
But if you die so what, you will be reborn in a few weeks with no level loss.
But water is everywhere. It can pass through solid stone. There is no, 'prevent water from ever touching me, ever' spell or item in the book, so any method you come up with has an effectiveness solely determined by the DM. You know, the guy trying to kill you.
You make a waterproof/airtight suit, his NPC's can sunder it (or he can rule that normal damage dealt with slashing/piercing weapons to you negates the seal on the suit, a logical enough ruling). You make a waterproof spell, his NPC's can dispel it (or just antimagic it, remember it's ORDINARY water that does damage (like acid)).
It would be naive as a villain (you're supposed to be smart), to not think like a villain and assume that everyone can figure out your weakness(es) and abuse you of them.
As a normal PC, I spend the first 2/3rds of my treasure/spells trying to eliminate the myriad weaknesses I already have. I don't need another one, thank you, especially one I can't cover with any spell or item out of the book (unless the DM lets something count) by RAW that's literally everywhere.
WitW is powerful on paper, you'll only get away with it in an actual game for as long as the DM allows you to.
You make a waterproof/airtight suit, his NPC's can sunder it (or he can rule that normal damage dealt with slashing/piercing weapons to you negates the seal on the suit, a logical enough ruling). You make a waterproof spell, his NPC's can dispel it (or just antimagic it, remember it's ORDINARY water that does damage (like acid)).
By RAW, you can't ever sunder armor. There's a suit in Sandstorm that should work (it's basically a Dune suit).
It would be naive as a villain (you're supposed to be smart), to not think like a villain and assume that everyone can figure out your weakness(es) and abuse you of them.
That's one reason I like to use Divine Insight to disguise myself as something living (and not vulnerable to water). Very few things can see through that.
As a normal PC, I spend the first 2/3rds of my treasure/spells trying to eliminate the myriad weaknesses I already have. I don't need another one, thank you, especially one I can't cover with any spell or item out of the book (unless the DM lets something count) by RAW that's literally everywhere.
WitW removes many of your PC weaknesses, such as most Fort save spells, everything mind effecting, fatigue, need for food and water (I'm doing one in a Dark Sun campaign, so it matters a lot), and a wide variety of other stuff. You gain a few weaknesses, most of which most people won't know about with a simple spell boosted Disguise check, and all of which are counterable.
JaronK
By RAW, you can't ever sunder armor. There's a suit in Sandstorm that should work (it's basically a Dune suit).
By RAW, you can most certainly sunder armor, there's rules for attacking worn objects on page 158 of the PH, and it's explicitly listed in the table of things you can sunder on that same page.
Even if you couldn't, the hydration suit in Sandstorm-1. isn't designed to keep out water (so requires a DM ruling there), and 2. is just clothing, not armor.
Your DM would be perfectly within his rights to say that every time anyone succeeds on any attack roll with a slashing or piercing weapon, they slash or pierce the suit along with the body beneath it, and therefore ruin it's 'waterproofing' if they even ruled that it was waterproof in the first place. Worse, per the description, it's full of sponges and a reservoir that collect moisture, so he could rule that your effectively carrying acid around with you inside the suit.
That's one reason I like to use Divine Insight to disguise myself as something living (and not vulnerable to water). Very few things can see through that.
I assume you mean use Divine Insight to jack up a mundane disguise check.
Remember something, though, you're the villain. The DM's 'heroes' hunting you have access to the same spells, skills, and power options you do. There is nothing to prevent an enemy from using the same spell to jack up their spot checks to pierce your disguise. There's nothing to prevent them from asking their own diety, 'Hey who the heck is this new 15th level cleric in town?' and not even having to bother seeing through it.
WitW removes many of your PC weaknesses, such as most Fort save spells, everything mind effecting, fatigue, need for food and water (I'm doing one in a Dark Sun campaign, so it matters a lot), and a wide variety of other stuff. You gain a few weaknesses, most of which most people won't know about with a simple spell boosted Disguise check, and all of which are counterable.
JaronK
I can gain most of the benefits Dry lich gives me with Necropolitan, some creative spell stacking, some items, or some combination, without having to take 10 levels of a PrC or worrying about the water.
There is NOTHING in the game to counter mundane water that doesn't require DM intervention for you to use in 'normal' adventuring. There are no 'waterproofing' spells, items, or mundane gear (at least none that I can find, and believe me, I've looked, I will happily accept correction, though).
Enemy NPC's can learn your 'weakness' as easily as you can learn theirs. There is nothing to prevent them from rolling the same knowledge checks you do. There is nothing to prevent them jacking up their skill rolls the same as you do.
Really, my DM's and I can't be the only ones that build NPC's like PC's and play them accordingly?
Now, a dark sun campaign (or any waste campaign) would be the only place I'd actually consider playing one, mind you, as there isn't any water there to worry about.
Sunder
Sundering a Carried or Worn Object
You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.
Also, per the rules equipment never takes damage from normal use. Armor should get holes poked into it frequently if an attack gets through it, but it doesn't. You should have to repair your armor and weapons occasionally, but you don't, unless someone specifically attempts to damage them, or you roll a 1 on a saving throw.
So no, your armor should never be damaged in combat, unless your DM bends the rules just to screw you over, or someone specifically targets it with a Disintegrate or something.
And seriously... it just does damage. So freakin' what? So do swords, arrows, and alot of other pointy objects. It's not hard to damage someone, and it's not hard to heal damage done to you. So who gives a crap if one other thing damages you? You're a high level spellcaster. It's not like it's hard to avoid being caught out in the rain without an umbrella. And this minor weakness is so freakin' worth all the benefits that come with it, that it is incomprehensible that you always rail against it every time this PrC is brought up.
Also, do you really think the first thing people do in combat is use Divine Insight to boost their spot score? REALLY? Has that ever actually happened in any game you've played? And generally, I don't sit there letting people stare at me all the time. If I'm a 13th level Dry Lich, I ride around on my sand golem or in my giant death robot and let the other party members do the talking, because I don't like people anyway.
Also, how do you know he's the villain being pursued by heroes? Evil doesn't necessarily mean villain. Heck, in the Dark Sun campaign it doesn't matter... we're just trying to survive.
JaronK
Edit: Mr Icy/hot in my sig is a WiW build if you want to check it out...
You can't Sunder armor. Also, per the rules equipment never takes damage from normal use. Armor should get holes poked into it frequently if an attack gets through it, but it doesn't. You should have to repair your armor and weapons occasionally, but you don't, unless someone specifically attempts to damage them, or you roll a 1 on a saving throw.
So no, your armor should never be damaged in combat, unless your DM bends the rules just to screw you over, or someone specifically targets it with a Disintegrate or something.
I stand corrected, but see also, my second line, "It's not armor."
A DM is in charge of what happens to equipment in a fight, and if you are relying on, for lack of a better description, a rubber suit with a bunch of sponges inside as your primary method of saying 'I don't take damage from the water in the air/dungeon/puddles/rain/et al', he's perfectly within his rights to say that the water protection is compromised when you get stabbed. Even if he doesn't want to Rule 0 it, he can still sunder it, because, again, it's not armor.
And seriously... it just does damage. So freakin' what? So do swords, arrows, and alot of other pointy objects. It's not hard to damage someone, and it's not hard to heal damage done to you. So who gives a crap if one other thing damages you? You're a high level spellcaster. It's not like it's hard to avoid being caught out in the rain without an umbrella. And this minor weakness is so freakin' worth all the benefits that come with it, that it is incomprehensible that you always rail against it every time this PrC is brought up.
You're right, it is just damage.
However, unlike Energy Damage (Immunity/Resist/etc), Positive and Negative (similar spells), Bludgeoning/et al (Physical DR), Ability Damage, and nearly every other example, there's nothing I can reliably do to prevent it.
It's like adding a whole nother class of Force spells just for use against your character. Actually, it's worse than that, because anyone with enough commoners with flasks of water can kill you. To get through all my other immunties/resistances as a high level spell caster requires another high level spellcaster, this one just takes a mob that can all hit AC 5.
I 'rail' against the PrC because I feel like the people that are it's strongest promoters have either A-never played one, or B-only played one under a very specific set of circumstances (Dark Sun or a very lenient DM). All of it's power can be had in a myriad of other ways WITHOUT having to avoid every bar fight for fear of stray bottles and WITHOUT having to spend 10 levels waiting for it.
Try Planar Handbook for Waterproofing. It has waterproofed spellbooks (parafin linings) and a few other nice things. Also check Stormwrack for Oilskin suits, Heck, you are at the very least a 12th level caster (Cleric 3/Walker in the Waste 10) so you can craft anything you want... how about using Animate Dead to create a huge skeleton, and then equipping said skeleton with an Oilskin Suit under Mechanicus Gear, and hanging out inside that? Throw some Black Sand in it to keep you and your robot healed. And finally... it does 2d4 damage, and you're at least 13th level. Look at your hit points at that level and ask... who cares? Sit there on your black sand and lay down holy hell (literally) on the bastard with the super soaker.
The Oilskin suit is just water resistant, it isn't water proof. Using it as protection requires DM intervention, same as any other mundane piece of 'water protection' you can find in the books.
At 13th level, I expect my enemies to know that they can cast Shrink Item on a barrel of water and throw the whole thing at me for more than just '2d4' damage.
Barrel of Water 2gp
Shrink Item 1 3rd level spell slot I could have cast yesterday
The math on that comes to (for a 40 gallon barrel), 640d4 damage or 10d6 (or 20d6) if your DM caps it at 'total immersion'.
Also, do you really think the first thing people do in combat is use Divine Insight to boost their spot score? REALLY? Has that ever actually happened in any game you've played? And generally, I don't sit there letting people stare at me all the time. If I'm a 13th level Dry Lich, I ride around on my sand golem or in my giant death robot and let the other party members do the talking, because I don't like people anyway.
In combat? no.
When the 'good guys' hear that there's a villain running around doing whatever the heck he's doing (or just come into town) and that he's a high level cleric, maybe. I've blown the 250gp on True seeing on many occasions as a PC with less provocation, it's not meta gaming for the DM to do the same as an NPC. It's also not metagaming for him to equip an undead hunter NPC with gear specifically designed to detect undead (goggles of lifesight, lenses of revalation) that will go through a mundane disguise.
If he's blatant enough to ride around on the back of a sand golem or in a giant death robot, I'm not going to bother, I'm going to cast Commune and let god sort it out.
Also, how do you know he's the villain being pursued by heroes? Evil doesn't necessarily mean villain. Heck, in the Dark Sun campaign it doesn't matter... we're just trying to survive.
Because I read the op...(emphasis added)
I'm currently building a character to participate in an evil Forgotten Realms campaign.
Evil in FR=villain of the story.
Even if you're playing evil v evil in a region where evil is the norm, you're still the villain in that setting.
JaronK
10d6 is for a single barrell (assuming the DM caps it, which is, I believe, the norm). There's nothing preventing him from throwing 2, or 3, or 100 if he has people to throw them available.
There's no save against that damage, no Energy Resistance, no DR, no SR, no regeneration, no mitigation of any kind. As long as I have people on my end that can make a ranged touch against you, or even just hit the AC 5 to hit your square, you're going to take damage.
155 hitpoints is all well and good vs a single barrel, it doesn't mean squat when your taking 200d6 from 20 separate hits.
Again, COMMONERS can potentially do this to you.
Yes, and before you start, I know you can craft contingency all kinds of hoojoo, but this is a LOT of effort to avoid something you can avoid by not taking 10 levels of a PrC in the first place, and relying on the myriad of other ways to get ALL of the real benefits of the template without ANY of the negatives (Including the wasted feat and the two lost caster levels, which likewise seem to always get glossed over).
I'm only pointing this stuff out because this is the Character Optimization boards, and optimization is supposed to be about gaining mechanical advantages while limiting mechanical weaknesses. Since I can easily find all of the advantages the template/PrC applies as a 15th level (even straight) cleric WITHOUT any of the disadvantages (or at least, none as severe), I am making the argument to avoid it as not optimal.
My question remains, why give yourself a weakness as common as the compound that covers 75% of the worlds surface if you don't NEED to?
Say a Starting Cha of 14, and boosted up to a 16, somehow... At 15th, you get an extra 45 HP. Call that your "water" pool of HP, if you really want to. Its not going to happen every session. Its not even going to happen every third session. When it does happen, its more likely going to be the player's mistake, not the DM gunning for you.
You've got ways to fly - you don't have to deal w/ land-based water anymore. You've got ways to control the weather - you don't have to deal w/ rain anymore. You've got ways to prevent creatures from landing flasks on you - regular buff spells you'd want anyways.
There's enough stuff in DnD to counter just about anything you can come up with, though... But in this case it greatly favors the PrC.
I understand you point about the mechanics, but unless the DM is a complete dick this will hardly ever come up and if you cannot think of a way to negate such a basic tactic perhaps you would be better served playing a barbarian/fighter...
Edit: I am curious how you can emulate the +5LA and the specific craft sand golem ability with a base cleric? Not trying to be a dick just honestly curious.
You're right, it doesn't matter... in Dark Sun.
In Forgotten Realms, nearly every published dungeon/adventure (outside of Anauroch) has at least one Water hazard. There are entire kingdoms on the ocean floor. Heck, I can think of at least 4 adventures that the 'boss fight' at the end was in a lake. Why would you unnecessarily prevent yourself from fully enjoying all that content, or having to spend 1/3rd of your spells/money overcoming the hurdles?
How the water weakness is going to affect your character is a legitimate concern that you should address with your DM before choosing to spend 10 levels, 2 Caster Levels, and a dead feat on a PrC. Just as it's legitimate to ask whether or not he's going to apply the LA retroactively (even though, yes, I know it isn't RaW, but every DM is different, and at least some DM's will do that). It's completely legitimate for me to contend that they should check, and to supply my opinion that it's probably not worth the trouble (in a 'normal' campaign).
Every 'protection' thrown so far requires a DM (in a non-wasteland campaign) to, in one way or another, either make something up (or allow you to make something up), pull his punches (enemy spellcasters can fly and control weather too), avoid taking you anywhere with major sources of water (read: every major city), or completely gloss over something that is intended as a balance point to the extra power the template provides vs normal liches. If your DM does any of those, then there's absolutely no issue, have fun with it, and good luck. But assuming that every DM does and espousing taking 10 levels of a PrC as somehow always superior under that assumption isn't solid optimization, it's potentially bad advice.
Now, in all fairness, I am doing the antithesis of that, and assuming that every DM will make your life hell as the default. But in my defense- 1. that's how we tend to roll in my group (at least, in all our high level campaigns); and 2. I seem to be the only person that ever even points out the possibility that this could happen to people, so even if it's only 10% of the groups that run this way, I'm nowhere near 10% of the people advising people on what PrC's to take, so someone's got to make up the difference.
Edit: I am curious how you can emulate the +5LA and the specific craft sand golem ability with a base cleric? Not trying to be a dick just honestly curious.
By emulate, I don't necessarily mean 'get the exact same thing', I mean by that 'get something mechanically equivalent or better' (Necropolitan get's all the 'Undead' abilities, for a much lower cost, for example).
Specific to your two examples, I don't want the +5 LA (I want the abilities that LA is supposed to translate into). The LA would just cost me XP if I took it. Besides, a WitW doesn't even take the LA unless a DM house-rules that it does.
As for the Sand Golem, there are so many ways to get an equivalent 'pet' it'd take an hour for me to list them all. Many don't require 6 levels in a PrC, a dead feat, AND a caster level. They all have some cost, obviously, some of them more severe than the cost of WitW's ability. Each resulting pet is likewise debatable as to how it specifically compares 'power-wise' to a sand golem. But, since the 'Create Sand Golem' ability still requires spells/cash/xp on top of the levels/caster level/dead feat, it's certainly not a superior method in and of itself, and at the end of the day, it's cheaper to buy a Manual of Iron Golem creation and be done with it, if you just want a Frank.
JaronK
Why would you need to control it? If you create it and you have the HD space is it not just under your control? This is how i understood the creating undead system to work.
JaronK
Hmm. Hydration Suit+Blackwater from Stormwrack? I vaguely remember Blackwater dealing Negative Energy damage(ie, Undead healing).
I think you're thinking of Black Sand.
Nope. Blackwater. Saps your levels(Immune!), deals negative energy damage(thus healing undead), functions as though Desecrated. If you can find a way to permanently bottle it rather than the 1 hour/level(?) duration of the Domain spell, it would work.
Oh, that's nice. What level is that? With a 1 hr/lvl duration, you hardly even need to make it permanent, unless it takes up a high level spellslot.
As JaronK mentioned earlier, Black Sand from Sandstorm is a magical location/object, and you can summon some with a spell. It does something similiar to what you're describing, but if someone dies in it, they are turned into Black Sand themselves. So the trick is to summon some, and let it kill someone. Then the new black sand that your "victim" turned into should be permanent.
Or if we could make a case for mixing Blacksand and Blackwater to create Blackquicksand!
