Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bergtann Nov 25, 2008 14:36:00	Ok, I read the other threads and a thought occurred to me: Is it possible to build a Fighter 20 to defeat a specific Wizard 20? In other words, the fighters player is sported a complete knowledge of the Wizards preparations before building his character. Knowledge include spells memorized, metamagics on them, items carried and stats. No custom items or self-researched spells. No PrCs, obviously. Fight 1: Core only Fight 2: WoTC non-magazine sources only. Can anyone post a build that no fighter can defeat? Can anyone post a fighter build that can defeat that build? What if we sport the fighter a "only needs to win one out of three" advantage?
#2 snex Nov 25, 2008 14:59:16	a hand of glory and 3 rings of counterspelling filled with what you know the wizard will do will certainly help, but it will just delay your inevitable death rather than prevent it.
#3 jaronk Nov 25, 2008 15:17:07	Gnome Illusionist 15/Shadowcraft Mage 5 with that Dragonmark that makes him never flat footed, plus the usual SCM feats (Earth Spell, Residual Metamagic, and so on). Whether or not he wins initiative, he casts Celerity before the Fighter can act, shifting into the ethereal plane and then using a Belt of Battle to cast Silent Image Genesis as a standard action. This allows him to instantly create a flowing time plane that's got flowing time 100,000,000,000, as well as the Timeless trait, and while we're at it throw in the trait from the Plane of Shadow that says all shadow spells are auto maximized. Now, sit down and drink some tea, and maybe have a nap. Then use Planar Binding to call a bunch of Effrettis, kill them, use Create Greater Undead to get Bone Creature versions of them, control them with Control Undead, and gain tons of wishes. Wish for some hot babes and some Pina Coladas. Party hard, sleep off the hangover, maybe learn painting. When you feel ready to kill the Fighter, cast Gate so you can see him, and bombard him with whatever spells you want. Feel free to rest 8 hours and memorize new spells if you want, then do it again. If you want to be a dick, use Silent Image Major Creation and just dump gallons of Black Lotus Poison on him, or for sport kill him with nothing but Magic Missiles. Or maybe you could just use Fabricate a longbow and shoot him to death... your accuracy will suck, but you've got all the time in the world, so you can kill him that way. Total time used: one immediate action, used before the Fighter can act regardless of his initiative. Does that work for you?
#4 bergtann Nov 25, 2008 15:24:40	... No PrCs, obviously. Gnome Illusionist 15/Shadowcraft Mage 5.... I must sadly point out that this is not Wizard 20.
#5 jaronk Nov 25, 2008 15:42:26	Blast! That makes it a little harder... but only a little. You just cast Genesis before the fight, and use Celerity to gate into it. Everything else I said still applies. JaronK
#6 reis Nov 25, 2008 15:51:27	what is the setup of the duel? does each participant know a duel is coming and can prepare accordingly? how much preparation time is allowed? what kind of area does the duel take place in? in core only if the fighter can catch his opponent flat footed with no buffs he might have a chance if he can kill the wizard in a surprise round but thats about your only shot. Once the wizard gets his turn and can cast spells the fight is over, your first action is probably to whip out your greater metamagic rod of maximize spell and cast time stop and I think anyone can see things go badly for the fighter from there. in non core you can get foresight 24/7 so theres no chance for surprise and you have celerity= gg.
#7 bergtann Nov 25, 2008 15:54:53	I was thinking an arena match, starting a 100' away from each other, with only 24-hour buffs precast. They know the duel is coming but the Fighter can build his character after getting all the info on the wizards preparations.
#8 jaronk Nov 25, 2008 16:36:56	In that case, the strategy I indicated (casting Celerity, then gating into a precast flowing time Genesis) will defeat any Fighter, so long as the Wizard makes sure he can never be made flat footed. The Wizard can literally have days to attack the Fighter without the Fighter even being able to get to the point of initiative. JaronK
#9 phaedrusxy Nov 25, 2008 17:01:03	I was thinking an arena match, starting a 100' away from each other, with only 24-hour buffs precast. They know the duel is coming but the Fighter can build his character after getting all the info on the wizards preparations. Yeah, I think I can build a wizard 20, core or non-core, that can beat any fighter under those conditions, 100% of the time, even if the fighter is built specifically to try and kill him, knowing everything there is about him (including prepared spells). I'd need a few more details about the rules to say with 100% certainty (see below). JaronK's idea works, but you can do it without the Genesis cheese. The main thing is to make sure you're never flatfooted, and/or that you can do something to insure that you can act before the fighter gets to, regardless of intiative rolls. There are multiple ways to do both, but it is difficult in core. You'll have to rely on a Contingency to get you out of harm's way long enough to set whatever plan in motion you have to kill the fighter. Also, can the wizard leave the arena? If so, the Contingency could set off a Plane Shift. Also, is Leadership allowed? If so... it will really be McFighter's cohort vs. Mr Wizard...
#10 theantitroll Nov 25, 2008 17:17:33	Ya know, I had this caster once. Wasn't a Wizard, but kicked everyone's ass, including the characters specifically built to kill them. Said anti mes were a lot more threatening than mere Fighters can ever be as well. The reason why this caster was so badass? Stealing tricks from the Wizard. Therefore, the Wizard who has done these things first and best will have no issue whatsoever.
#11 jaronk Nov 25, 2008 17:21:08	And I should mention that the Genesis trick I mentioned is just the easiest way I could think of that also involved a party with babes and pina coladas. There's plenty of other ways to do it, and no, a given Fighter cannot be built to deal with a specific Wizard if the Wizard is built well. JaronK
#12 ninjarabbit Nov 25, 2008 18:35:47	Maybe something like a solar fighter20 could beat a human wizard20 but that's about it.
#13 jaronk Nov 25, 2008 20:15:27	Ooh, good point, I think that technicality seems to be allowed. Thus, allow me to present my awesome build to beat a Wizard 20: Half Red Dragon Black Ethergaunt Fighter 20! All the abilities of a Fighter 20, plus 17 levels of Wizard casting and a huge Int score, and even immunity to lots of spells. Nifty. JaronK
#14 phaedrusxy Nov 26, 2008 16:54:17	Subbing for AwakenedDMgolem, because he missed this one: What about the other thread? :D
#15 theantitroll Nov 27, 2008 7:19:08
#16 awaken_D_M_golem Nov 28, 2008 15:52:14	Subbing for AwakenedDMgolem, because he missed this one: What about the other thread? :D I wanted this one soo bad ... :headexplo
#17 theantitroll Nov 28, 2008 16:18:04	I wanted this one soo bad ... :headexplo