Looking around briefly, the White wyrmling and Sapphire wyrmling have near the same hd/LA, but their stats and abilities are not as good. The pseudodragon gets mention for blindsense and telepathy and reasonably good stats, but unfortunately has 2hd and LA+3 (why couldn't it be the other way?).
Are there any other good dragons out there? And what can be done with them?
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will update list later with more info...
DoF - Dragons of Faerun
Dcn - Draconomicon
Ambush Drake (online) 7HD/0LA medium - debatable about the LA
Brass (MM) 4HD/2LA tiny - breath weapon: sleep
Crested Felldrake (MM2) 2HD/2LA small - scent, no flight
Fang (Dcn) 3HD/3LA tiny - bite: ability drain, increased damage, trip, sound imitation, detect/read magic
Incarnum (MoI) 4HD/2LA tiny - Meldshaping (Soulborn list)
Mercury (DoF) 3HD/2LA tiny - high speed (200' perfect flight!), apply the Shadow template for 300'
Mist (DoF) 3HD/2LA tiny - gaseous form
Pseudodragon (MM) 2HD/3LA tiny - telepathy, blindsense, spell resistance
Sand (Sandstorm) 3HD/2LA tiny - Immunity to Fire, 20' burrow, Tremorsense 60 ft.
Sapphire (MM2) 5HD/2LA tiny - breath weapon: sonic & causes panic (not listed a mind or fear effect), all four movement modes
Shadow (Dcn) 4HD/3LA tiny - breath weapon: energy drain
Silver (MM) 7HD/4LA small - alternate form, breath weapon: paralyze
Spiked Felldrake (Dcn) 6HD/2LA large - very good mount (at Paladin -6)
Steel (DoF) 4HD/2LA small - alternate form, 1st level arcane casting (with access to divine plus a couple domains)
Tome (Dragon Magazine #343) 3HD/5LA - 3rd level arcane casting (knows all sorcerer divination/conjuration spells and knowledge domain)
White (3HD/2LA) tiny - has all four movement modes
Other stuff
feats from Dragons of Eberron (p.15)
- Alternate Form: gain alternate form Su ability
- Half-Dragon Form: use alternate form to become a humanoid with the half-dragon template applied
- Hidden Strength: higher stats while in alternate form
Spell: Strength of the True Form (Sor 1, transmutation) : gain NA, DR and stats of your original form while in an alternate/polymorph form
* Sorcerer/wizard, cleric, and a few domains all as sorcerer spells.
That said, it's not a real dragon, but it is draconic and more importantly it's +4 Str +4 Con -2 all other stats for no LA.
JaronK
Ambush Drake has no LA ... just Hit Dice ... (that's on your link page already).
I've actually been thinking of taking that off. There have been several debates over that one, and at least one thread that got quite heated.
Shadow dragons are very good.
Hmm, 4HD/3LA seems a bit high... but nice AC, and +4 vs charms and force effects, and freedom of movement? Nice.
I think I'll start keeping a list in my first post.
Just going from what I've seen in the Core Coliseum, playing a dragon can be decent at first (e.g. a wyrmling brass dragon can be competitive at ECL 7 with its sleep breath and some wands for backup), but it's hard to find a PC class with good synergy -- a tiny dragon is going to be fairly lousy at melee (because of its lack of reach) and is going to be a fairly lousy spellcaster (because of all of the lost caster levels).
The Ambush Drake has the dragon type.
The Draconomicon has rules for playing a dragon PC.
Bit of a late bloomer with that build, but it does give you one heck of a dragon.
Unfortunately, you have to be a halfling, so you can't be a dragon and use that build.
JaronK
Other than that the best choice I can think of is Steel which you have already mentioned in the OP. Then again, I'm not terribly familiar with the subject otherwise and will do a more detailed look later on (I have some vested interest in some optimization in this area anyway since I have played more than one dragon PC before in the far too many, short lived campaigns I have been a part of).
I have personally modified the LAs of most dragons after a good deal of experience with them, resulting in a lot of reduction overall. Looking at the Dragon Cohort feat from Draconomicon, the cohort gets -3 ECL, which is rather unfair when considering that it would be, strictly by the numbers, better than a PC in that party of the same variety. That said, mostly I go with -3 LA (maximum of -1/2HD for fairness), leaving many forms with none at all. I have yet to have any balance issues with this in the groups I have played in, but ymmv. Of course, understanding the spirit of this board I can see why you would strongly prefer to stick with RAW in this aspect.
Just going from what I've seen in the Core Coliseum, playing a dragon can be decent at first (e.g. a wyrmling brass dragon can be competitive at ECL 7 with its sleep breath and some wands for backup), but it's hard to find a PC class with good synergy -- a tiny dragon is going to be fairly lousy at melee (because of its lack of reach) and is going to be a fairly lousy spellcaster (because of all of the lost caster levels).
That's why I'm asking for input on what can be cone with them. Anything ToB could be promising.
JaronK
Choosing anything without alternate form is a big loss in my opinion, but just looking at combat ability it would not be the best choice of special ability.
Keeping in mind the need for plenty of room for class levels, I think the best overall choices among those listed would be Steel and Brass, both for their abilities (alternate form and sleep breath, respectively) and their higher HD to LA ratio. Brass would be the better choice strictly for combat ability.
On the other hand, having only 3 attacks is not going to get you terribly far unless you can gain iterative attacks from natural weapons. If that is possible in some way that I have either not researched or have been overlooking for a long time please let me know.
Um... Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike from Draconomicon.
Keeping in mind the need for plenty of room for class levels, I think the best overall choices among those listed would be Steel and Brass, both for their abilities (alternate form and sleep breath, respectively) and their higher HD to LA ratio. Brass would be the better choice strictly for combat ability.
I think I'd pick Steel over brass for the alternate form. Steel also gets 1st level arcane AND divine casting.
I think I'd pick Steel over brass for the alternate form. Steel also gets 1st level arcane AND divine casting.
Note you don't get arcane and divine casting, you get sorc spells but can choose from sorc, cleric, and knowledge and trickery domain spells as sorcerer spells.
Note you don't get arcane and divine casting, you get sorc spells but can choose from sorc, cleric, and knowledge and trickery domain spells as sorcerer spells.
Also consider that this 1 level of casting is next to useless at higher levels. I would still think brass is preferable, unless of course you have a reason to want alternate form, or plan on extending the caster level at some point.
Um... Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike from Draconomicon.
Thanks! I really need to spend some time and do a more thorough reading of the books I use, but I haven't had time lately and so will continue to make myself look like an idiot trying to optimize with a limited knowledge base.
Also consider that this 1 level of casting is next to useless at higher levels. I would still think brass is preferable, unless of course you have a reason to want alternate form, or plan on extending the caster level at some point.
Steel wyrmlings are all about casting. You just go straight into Abjurant Champion or any other gish PrC.
Note you don't get arcane and divine casting, you get sorc spells but can choose from sorc, cleric, and knowledge and trickery domain spells as sorcerer spells.
Yeah, I knew that... it was extremely poor wording on my part.
Also consider that this 1 level of casting is next to useless at higher levels. I would still think brass is preferable, unless of course you have a reason to want alternate form, or plan on extending the caster level at some point.
The sheer flexibility of alternate form is not to be overlooked, though honestly I would want it moreso simply for interaction in social settings (because even small dragons attract the wrong kind of attention). The casting is just a bonus, though it does lead into all the gishy PrCs.
The sheer flexibility of alternate form is not to be overlooked, though honestly I would want it moreso simply for interaction in social settings (because even small dragons attract the wrong kind of attention). The casting is just a bonus, though it does lead into all the gishy PrCs.
Agreed, I wasn't sure if you were going to bother with such aspects of character design for this or not. With that in mind, I would agree that alternate form is simply too powerful to be left behind. That, along with the fact that you seem more inclined to go the ToB route, would throw brass out of the picture. The alternate breath simply isn't strong enough without a lot of focus on it, which would detract quite a bit from working on a stronger melee build. I'm interested in seeing what can be done with dragons and ToB (I have used it so far as to take martial study (wolf fang) and martial stance (punishing) to increase damage output, but nothing further). I have several morning classes but I'll see if I can't dig up Dragons of Faerun and come up with some food-for-thought concept builds, assuming it isn't already done by that time.
Edit: the new alternate form feat for dragons, not the "no" alternate form feat for Dragons.
so who has Dragons of Eberron and thus the no alternate form feat, as well as the ability to trade out spellcasting for TOB manuevers as well as Fighter bonus feats?
Now I wish I did. What do you mean by "no alternate form feat" anyway?
Steel (DoF) 4HD/2LA small - alternate form, 1st level arcane and divine casting
A wyrmling steel dragon is a true dragon with size Small and only +2 LA? And has a caster level? I think that definitely puts it in the lead; being Tiny is a big pain for melee fighters.
Maybe something like:
Steel Dragon 6/Pouncing Barbarian 1/Soul Eater 2/War Mind 10/Warblade (?) 1
or (if you don't like the evil version)
Steel Dragon 6/Pouncing Barbarian 1/War Mind 10/Abjurant Champion (?) 3
Why War Mind?
- It gives some nice abilities.
- Expansion is a useful power for dragons (since they get more natural attacks as they increase in size).
- It's not tough for a dragon to enter (just requires knowledge skills -- which dragons have as class skills -- plus Wild/Hidden Talent)
Sand (Sandstorm) 3HD/2LA tiny - Immunity to Fire, Tremorsense 60 ft.
Incarnum (MoI) 4HD/2LA tiny - Meldshaping (Soulborn list)
Dragon Magic also has a list of variant abilities, similar to racial sub levels, for the MM1 chromatic and metallic dragons. The only wyrmling sub levels are Comprehend Languages instead of Speak with Animals for Brass dragons and Immunity to Poison rather than Immunity to Acid for Copper dragons.
3 HD, LA 5 - caster level 3
Tome Dragon 3/LA 5/Caster level advancement 12 = 15th level sorcerer casting
Tome dragons automatically know all sorcerer conjuration spells, sorcerer divination spells, and knowledge domain spells (in addition to the normal sorcerer spells).
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By comparison, Steel Dragons end up the same at level 20:
Steel Dragon 4/LA 2/Caster 14 = 15th level sorcerer
Although steel dragons get to choose from sorcerer, cleric, knowledge domain, and trickery domains spells, they don't get all of the free spells that the tome dragon gets.
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Applying the Shadow Creature template to the wyrmling mercury dragon is actually worth it, as it gives a 100' speed boost, making for a pretty incredible scout character. Throw on Air Heritage + Improved Speed for more fun (a swift hunter flyby attacker could work very well).
A Kobold can take the Dragonwraught feat and gain the Dragon type. From Races of the Dragon.
And thanks to Dragons of Eberron, Loredrake alternative class feature that Kobold can have +3 Sorcerer levels for the price of two feats (dragonwraught and draconic reservior)
And thanks to Dragons of Eberron, Loredrake alternative class feature that Kobold can have +3 Sorcerer levels for the price of two feats (dragonwraught and draconic reservior)
As in level 9 spells on level 15?Please tell me what they have to give up to get that.
Please tell me what they have to give up to get that.
Their racial hit dice are d10s instead of d12s.
they must be true dragons (which dragonwraught kobolds are)
they must be in eberron
they must have a specific devotion for the pursuit of knowledge
if they have dragon abilities to cast things like cleric spells as sorcerer spells, they lose this ability. If they don't have this ability they still gain the benefits of lore drake.
In return their sorcerer level is treated as two higher. Greater Draconic Right of Passage treats your sorcerer level as one higher. Together these two abilities (and their prerequisite two feats) treat your sorcerer level as 3 higher.
It is something for nothing, no dm will probably allow it for kobolds ;) but for other dragons definitely. But it is legal RAW
I do believe I love you, good sir :P
Ambush Drake... 7HD, 0-LA
:D
So, one of my players will start playing with a wyrming steel dragon. Any suggestions I can give him? I thought Abjurant Champion, but he needs a +1 to BAB before going to the class and he can't use Spellsword for it, as it requires armor proficiency. Any way to get +1 BAB, +1 caster level to a steel dragon wyrmling that's not Spellsword or Dragonslayer (does not fit thematically, really)?
Dragonslayer?? Thematic isn't such an issue - steel dragon is good aligned, and if it is a wyrmling that hunts down and kills evil aligned dragons - there you go.
I'm not aware of anything else that would do it. : /
*edit* Nevermind - Dragonslayer requires +5 BAB. Nothing wrong with 1 level of fighter, though? It gives all of the proficiencies, a free feat, and the BAB ... you could also always just make a custom prc.
And thanks to Dragons of Eberron, Loredrake alternative class feature that Kobold can have +3 Sorcerer levels for the price of two feats (dragonwraught and draconic reservior)
Why draconic reservoir? I don't have Dragons of Eberron yet, but the feat is a bit meh.
Why draconic reservoir? I don't have Dragons of Eberron yet, but the feat is a bit meh.
So that you can take the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage which boosts your Sorcerer level for all intents and purposes by 1.
EDIT: Came across this, too. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040103a
According to that, it gets 150ft Average.
JaronK
Steel Dragon is certainly the best. Their Alternate Form ability is alreayd pretty powerful, with access to things like Dark Ones and Legendary Apes, and with the spells from Dragons of Eberron and the feat Strenght of True Form... it just gets NASTY
What does Strength of True Form do? Does it improve Alternate Form?
What does Strength of True Form do? Does it improve Alternate Form?
You get the NA, DR, and physical stats of your dragon form, or of your current form, whichever is better.
The duration is awful though :|
(Dragons of Eberron page 15, if you're wondering)
You get the NA, DR, and physical stats of your dragon form, or of your current form, whichever is better.
The duration is awful though :|
(Dragons of Eberron page 15, if you're wondering)
1 round for a sorcerer spell, though it is an immediate action cast.
Here is the pre-epic maximum HD total as calculated completely within the rules: See build 4 here
You get the NA, DR, and physical stats of your dragon form, or of your current form, whichever is better.
The duration is awful though :|
(Dragons of Eberron page 15, if you're wondering)
You could always persist it, it's first level anyway. I haven't worked on it yet, but I think it could be very very interesting.