Gnome Illusionist 5/ Shadow adept 1/ Dweomerkeeper 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 3
Is there any way, to nerf this character. He is a really good min/maxer, and optimizer. I'm just trying to see if there is anyway to really deter and nuke this character, without invoking rule zero. I figure this is the board to do it in, since you guys optimize.. but, you don't, from what I've seen over the years, optiize from the DM side. Unless of course I was use the characters or techniques you create fro NPC's and the like.
Thanks.
Also if you guys want, I have an idea as t o what the other characters are going to be, but this seems like my major issue, for right now.
No but seriously are you looking for enemies that could easily destroy him (plenty of those) or just ways to nerf the powers and abilities of the build?
I don't know what to do.
I need:
Allowed books
Intended build
Means of qualifying for dweomerkeeper
(As it was updated in complete divine's web expansion)
Feat load-out
And, crucially, his intended power level and the power level of the campaign as a whole.
The bard build he is discussing is a dragonfire inspiration build, and is superb because it really makes the whole party better, rather than stealing the spot-light itself. I might in fact lean towards that instead of a shadowcraft mage, but be aware that it really does pretty much what he says it does.
As a GM, you should never need to despair because You Can't Beat The House. This isn't panic-worthy. Sit with him, talk with him, find out if he reads these boards and why he's pushing his builds so far. It may be that he doesn't trust his fellow players to not be stupid.
Both actually.. the player, whose been playing for a long time, and practically memorized the damn books and is a really good optimizer flat out told me.. "SR messes me up, period"... I don't want to have to rely on soemthing with a huge SR every damn time he comes into the fray of the fight. Let alone rely on AMF when hes in an area. He said its either this character or some bard/crusade/warblade mix that if he wanted to , can add +12 atk and +12d6 to dmg, for a minute, and due to lingering song or soemthing, sings once, and hes good the rest of the fight.
I don't know what to do.
Easy partner, there's way to nerf any build. Any build. Shadowcraft magic requires a lot of saves, if you have enemies with good saving throws (mostly Will saves) he's be eqaully screwed. Many many things have dispel magic as a spell like ability or simply but taking the spell. You can have said caster ready an action to counter his spell as soon as he casts it. There are literally hundreds of ways. Monster with awesome sneak ability to surprise him before he can cast, grapple him (then he really can't cast) etc.
All books are allowed, including BoVD, BoED (both under scrutiny form me), eberron, kalemar, Fr, ravenloft, and such. Only books not allowed or under extreme scrutiny are what was mentioned before (BoVD and BoED), and ToB, and Psionics books, and Incarnum. I don't want to use multiple magic systems in the game.
Level 10 are the players, for now, campaign will only run for 4 weeks. See how it goes first. World is standard magic or magic highish. Flaws are allowed. his exact build is follows: gnome illusionist 5/ Shadow adept 1/ Dweomerkeeper 1/ shadowcraft mage 3
Not sure on his feats, but i figure heighten spell is one of them as he told me I believe.
I'm not sure what dweomerkeeper updated is. I have pdf, but it was long ago web enhancement, maybe they updated it?
I know for a fact he reads the boards, but doesn't like them for one reason he said. Their slow. As in, according to him, he figured out a bunch of cheesy and broken ideas the day books came out and people were figuring them out weeks or months later. So any new ideas that come out, hes probably figured them out. Or if not, their nothing he hasn't seen really.
Personally, you guys are amazing, my opinion. But yeah.
e didn't push the character hard, just tried to make me see that he himself is ineffective, I agree, its his creations that are hard to compete with, and then he joked, knowing I knew the truth. He trusts his fellow players, he's been in other games with him, currently we all are in another campaign on another night actually. And his is one character that is leaning on brokenish, or might be getting cheesy. BUt his is the only one I know details on. The others not so much.
It's one of three or four PrCs I ban outright, of which SCM is not one. I recommend forcing frequent saves as Crowley said, or using things with spell immunity, as once something allows SR, it becomes subject to the spell immunity of say.... a golem. Or a druid using aberrant wild shape and enhanced wild shape to become a spell-immune will'o'wisp.
Should I just ban outright the dweomerkeeper... and if so, I know hes gonna ask. "WHy? hes not that good anyway, hes just giving me a free feat" and so on and so on, I don't want to invoke rule zero unless needed, but what reason could I tell him. Also, what other PrC do you ban?
Ban Tome of Battle! haha jk. Well, it sounds like this guy is trying to control you. Remember, you're the DM. You have the power, and it's up to you to keep your PC's in check. It's ok to say hey I'm banning this because it's too powerful or potentially game breaking. Moreover, it's not necessarily fair to the non-optimizers in the party. If this PC is way more optimized/powerful than the rest of the group he's either never going to be touched in regular encounters, or you're going to have to kill have the party just to give him a challenge. Where's the fun in that? Explain this to him (I'm sure he's heard it before) and tell him that's how you're going to run your campaign, and if he doesn't like it, tough!
Also, I aksed all players to give me a copy of their character sheets, so I know what to do in future games.
LOL, I love ToB, I would ban it, but I like it too much. I did say however it will be under scrutiny form my side.
Thanks, also, I know you mentioned a bunch of creatures can handle him. Like what? Grapplers and the like? Which specifically?
JaronK
I will ban dweomkeeper, and put up the xp cost for the Illusion and shadow stuff. That'll hurt him every time he wants to go uber on the campaign.
Ill have full 100% details on character monday night... as well as details on all he other cheese that is in my campaign. Funny thing is, their only level 10, and I'm still having thse issues. Thank G-d I didnt make it higher level.
One fix you could use, and this might be very simple or complicated depending on your CO'fu. Tell your players that any powerlevel they put out, you will react to in kind when designing NPC's.
I love that. One of my players played pun-pun. He was a touch slow increasing his Con, he did it last (The players forced him to do it while they were resting). They ran into some goblins. Suddenly he took loads of damage. Heavily optimised build killed him.
One player said, "that mean your going to put us against 19th and 20th level NPC's?" ANd i said right back, depends on how much you make me want to.
Ahh... but the beauty is that you wont increase the CR of the encounters. You will work within the rules just like the players.
Good example. Add 10 Ur-Priest Levels to most giants and other combat brutes and its only an increase of 5 CR. So adding 10 levels of Ur-Priest to a Hill Giant makes it a CR 12 encounter. Just make sure to assign the stats and feats yourself. Ill bet those 9th level spells coming from the hill giant will surprise the party the first time.
All you really have to do is look at the powers, and interpret the language so they don't stack.
"No, you don't get a huge caster bonus swapping a Heightened cantrip/spell for a Shadow spell. Once you do that, it's not an illusion spell anymore, and its not Heightened,and you lose the bonus."
"No, earth spell doesn't mean you're casting from a higher caster slot and can swap the spell for something more powerful then you can actually cast. You're casting a level 6 spell with a kicker on it, sheesh.
"No, Sanctum Spell doesn't mean you are casting a spell from a lower/higher slot and its actually a 'lower level' spell for purposes of game mechanics. You're casting an X level spell that has x-1 level effects, that's all."
"No, Heightening an Arcane Fusion doesn't allow you to put extra spell levels in the fusion. I don't see that ability anywhere in the description of Heighten spell. It says exactly what it does in the feat description, and Arcane Fusion doesn't say anywhere that its effect is boosted by Heighten spell this way. Sorry, no, I'll have to see an Errata to allow it."
SLAM. Shadowcraft Mage loses all its joy and appeal. And all it is, is interpreting the language reasonably, instead of in a way to abuse the power of the build.
Likewise, the whole 100%+ power of Shadow Magic is a red herring. Since you can't get more real then real, what you've effectively done is make the 'illusion' part of the spell the real spell, replacing the 'imitation' effect. Simply rule that any 100%+ effect means the Shadow portion has become the real spell, and go from there. I liken it to the way your acid and fire immune troll loses regeneration and just has fast healing. Once you take away a vulnerability, it simply sets the spell to the other mode.
===
As for him arguing about that kind of stuff, that's called a 'whine', and he's trying to distract you from what he's trying to build.
My second recommendation is to ask him if he minds all the NPC spellcasters he runs into having the kinds of builds he likes. Remember, spells and class abilities are 'free'. It's the melees who are gear dependent, right? So if he wants to optimize, do it right back to him, and make it obvious he's the inspiration. Then either get his agreement to scale back, or everyone plays rocket tag. The PC's will lose in the end...there's always another NPC rocket.
==Aelryinth
"No, you don't get a huge caster bonus swapping a Heightened cantrip/spell for a Shadow spell. Once you do that, it's not an illusion spell anymore, and its not Heightened,and you lose the bonus."
"No, earth spell doesn't mean you're casting from a higher caster slot and can swap the spell for something more powerful then you can actually cast. You're casting a level 6 spell with a kicker on it, sheesh.
"No, Sanctum Spell doesn't mean you are casting a spell from a lower/higher slot and its actually a 'lower level' spell for purposes of game mechanics. You're casting an X level spell that has x-1 level effects, that's all."
"No, Heightening an Arcane Fusion doesn't allow you to put extra spell levels in the fusion. I don't see that ability anywhere in the description of Heighten spell. It says exactly what it does in the feat description, and Arcane Fusion doesn't say anywhere that its effect is boosted by Heighten spell this way. Sorry, no, I'll have to see an Errata to allow it."
SLAM. Shadowcraft Mage loses all its joy and appeal. And all it is, is interpreting the language reasonably, instead of in a way to abuse the power of the build.
==Aelryinth
I dont want to nitpick, but i happen to play a SCM myself, and i love the class. And of all the things you just mentioned, i only use Heighten Spell.
Im still way ahead in power, and it really just comes down to how creative i am most of the time, to take care of 9/10 mundane encounters.
I think you're being unnecessarily harsh, here, Ael. Maybe the guy isn't whining, he just like some things to work the way they are written, and might play something else if you house-rule them to fit your fancy. Let me rephrase this:
He's (theoretically) upset that you've changed drastically the fluff of his character to better fit the overall fluff of the world you want to run, and is now interested in running a different character for fluff reasons.
Replace fluff with mechanics, and presume no value judgments. I think that's fine, and I'm unwilling to tell people who are strangers that their friends (who are also strangers) are whiners because their values don't precisely match mine.
I got a lot of idea's on how to control my players from Heroes of Horror and the DMG.
Examples:
-Hostage situation (useful for blasters)
-Innocents being possed/mind controled/charmed (cant just kill em)
-Family members threatened (game becomes more than just a hack and slash)
-Conflict with Non-Evil NPC's (once again not right to just kill em)
-Rivals for PC's (good roleplay, just as strong)
-Villains that learn from their mistakes ("HA! You used your shadow trickery last time, but now, I have THIS!!!")
Any DM can throw something tougher at a player, but it's more difficult to make situations designed to challenge, and not merely negate, his players abilites.
Any DM can throw something tougher at a player, but it's more difficult to make situations designed to challenge, and not merely negate, his players abilites.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Admittedly, this is difficult to make tangible on the CO boards, where rules and mechanics are the name of the game. In the instance of the Shadowcraft mage, someone who focuses on illusions, perhaps consider employing a villain who voluntarily fails his saving throws to the illusions and "is beaten," but every night returns in the PCs using those same illusions against the player. There is no easily found mechanic that allows you to do this (although I am sure one could be found), but it is a fun and interesting way to challenge your player.
-ktkenshinx-
I will agree with Lo77o here, and also say that I keep a shadowcraft mage build around to hand to beginning players, so that they can get a feel for the game without worrying too much about being horribly unprepared for the exotic circumstances I'm known for as a GM.
I think you're being unnecessarily harsh, here, Ael. Maybe the guy isn't whining, he just like some things to work the way they are written, and might play something else if you house-rule them to fit your fancy. Let me rephrase this:
He's (theoretically) upset that you've changed drastically the fluff of his character to better fit the overall fluff of the world you want to run, and is now interested in running a different character for fluff reasons.
Replace fluff with mechanics, and presume no value judgments. I think that's fine, and I'm unwilling to tell people who are strangers that their friends (who are also strangers) are whiners because their values don't precisely match mine.
HE's using the term Shadowcraft Mage and he's an Optimizer. He's using a name associated with probably one of the top 3 builds of a Mage on these boards, and he's even using a Gnome...he's going for the Full Monty of abuse.
And then he's trying to let something slide past the DM by attempting to minimize its contribution to the build? "Oh, it won't really do anything for me," also means that "Then giving it up won't hurt you at all."
I tend to rate casters against the core casters, and SCM builds are waaaaaaay over the scale in terms of abilities and powers. I'm the kind of guy that says "If you can't make a caster PrC out of 2-3 feats for a Mage, then it's overpowered and needs to be toned down."
And I'm sorry, but the Heighten Spell/swap nonsense is the core abuse of the build. Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell just build on it.
So, yeah, I'd be harsh. He's trying to skew campaign balance. either he'll walk over every encounter, or he'll raise the difficulty level such that everyone else is going to have to optimize as well. Either way, his character shines and casts everyone else...in shadow.
==Aelryinth
and he's even using a Gnome...he's going for the Full Monty of abuse.
You're probably right, BUT, you are aware you HAVE to be a gnome to get into the class in the first place?
You're probably right, BUT, you are aware you HAVE to be a gnome to get into the class in the first place?
Yes. There's better casting races then a gnome out there. At least he didn't try to argue using one of those instead of a gnome...and gods forbid he asks for some template with mental bonuses.
==Aelryinth
Yes. There's better casting races then a gnome out there. At least he didn't try to argue using one of those instead of a gnome...and gods forbid he asks for some template with mental bonuses.
==Aelryinth
You confuse the hell out of me. I have no idea what you mean here.
Are you telling me he should have been something other than a gnome?
Want a quick solution? Ask him to help everyone else tool up their characters.
It is okay to ban SCM, but I'd be somewhat hesitant myself. Tell him that you're a little worried. If he's reasonable, he'll understand, and then ask him to carefully walk you through the mechanics of the build, and how he qualifies for things. The heighten "abuse" is offensive to many, but is RAW legal under most readings. I will not engage in that debate. I do, however, recommend banning sanctum spell on principle. I refuse to use it in almost any of my practical optimization builds. Earth spell is harder to get, and less offensive mechanically speaking, so I'd be fine with it I think.
JaronK
I don't know where he's getting his divine spells to qualify for dweomerkeeper. He also must have the Magic domain to qualify for the class. The Arcane Disciple feat does not qualify a character as a dweomerkeeper, as it reads that you cast the chosen divine domain spells AS ARCANE SPELLS. He has no divine caster levels, and thus cannot cast any divine spells and cannot be a dweomerkeeper.
Other players are as follows: a wizard fighter gish, wizard, a cleric, and a rogue/swashbuckler twf crit hitter. The rogue confirms on 15-20, and has enervating... so yeah, every time he gets the crit, enemies drop a level.
As for the SCM, he said he didnt want to play it, it wasnt what he wanted to do. He now thorws his giant axe as touch attacks, mkaes bullrush attempts, and can mess stuff up. so hes the heavy damage dealer.
He said it was that or a warblade and something else mix, with twf kukris with aptitude on them and 3 mountains feat.. so each time he crit he gets another attack. ( he siad that would've ruined the game)
As for now its ok, had a good session, I spoke with him later for some DM tips, my first session ever really. and Everything went moderately smooth.
So no more troubles, if I have issues I'll make a new thread either here or the DM thread for help or ideas for NPC characters that are as optimized as they are.
Thanks all.
Here are some things that I like to ensure I get from players:
Character sheets IN ADVANCE, so I can look at them. I like to talk them through with characters. And I don't mean 5 minutes in advance.
Full character background. In writing. And we're talking a page or more here. D&D is an RPG. If a character can't reel off a decent backstory to back up his jumping through 3 PrCs and playing an obscure race, the answer is 'no'. 'Obscure' races are supposed to be flavour, not a stat-line and bunch of special abilities. PrCs are supposed to reflect where your character is 'going' in life and vaguely believable.
Balance. A character that is three times harsher for everyone else is not only making the GM's life awkward, but is spoiling the game for others. Nobody wants to play a goon following around a deity. Make sure the characters are all at the same-ish power level. Players who don't know the rules backwards should never be penalised. Set the highest and blaggiest power level to be in line with the weakest.
Right campaign world! Deity, region and whatever-else specific classes and races are campaign specific. No Eberron uberness in Greyhawk, please! No Mystra worshiping Ur-priests or other things that defy the actual wording of classes and races.
Read the fluff, and take it to heart: All those flowery descriptions for races and PrCs... make sure it's being followed and is suitable for your game.
You also should get used to saying 'No'. This is very important as a new GM. Ask your players to give you a break. Setting up encounters to be balanced is difficult at first, and is not helped by character having far more bang for their buck that they should have. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with doing this.
Generally, if this is all followed, then the more extreme characters are going to give you enough ammunition to shoot them with or flat out say 'no' to. Any really 'bizarre' combination is going to involve a backstory that is going to be utterly ripe with ways for you to even the score, or a bunch of debts and favours owed to trainers and sponsors in organisations to give the character things to do, or embroil them in schemes. If a player resents you 'getting' them via their backstory, then tell them that they could have avoided the issue by playing a more sensible character who hadn't had to have left his prior deity, leaving a string of enemies across the world, or whatever [Ur-priest is great for this, to the point of being pretty much unplayable]. Anyway: It's a roleplaying opportunity. They are here to RP, right?
[As a caveat: If a player decides to blatantly write a 'bulletproof' background and gets smug about it (a sure one to set alarms ringing is 'I have no siblings, and both my parents died in completely normal circumstances when I left home'), just say 'sure, that's what you remember happened in your life', smile and walk away. Then go watch 'The Manchurian Candidate']
Incidentally: If it's your first go at GMing, I really wouldn't start at higher levels of play. I'd personally advise starting at 2-3rd level. It's a whole lot easier, and you don't have to deal with awkward power issues quite as much.
HE's using the term Shadowcraft Mage and he's an Optimizer. He's using a name associated with probably one of the top 3 builds of a Mage on these boards, and he's even using a Gnome...he's going for the Full Monty of abuse.
And then he's trying to let something slide past the DM by attempting to minimize its contribution to the build? "Oh, it won't really do anything for me," also means that "Then giving it up won't hurt you at all."
I tend to rate casters against the core casters, and SCM builds are waaaaaaay over the scale in terms of abilities and powers. I'm the kind of guy that says "If you can't make a caster PrC out of 2-3 feats for a Mage, then it's overpowered and needs to be toned down."
And I'm sorry, but the Heighten Spell/swap nonsense is the core abuse of the build. Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell just build on it.
So, yeah, I'd be harsh. He's trying to skew campaign balance. either he'll walk over every encounter, or he'll raise the difficulty level such that everyone else is going to have to optimize as well. Either way, his character shines and casts everyone else...in shadow.
==Aelryinth
I'm with this guy. Optimization is evil and I specifically came to the CharOp board just to say so! Anyone who optimizes will ruin D&D for everyone, despite any suggestions others might have on how to blend it meaningfully into a game.
Now I'm going to find a website for car enthusiasts and tell them they're destroying the environment! Ciao!
Bloodstorm Blade is actually just "okay". To me it looks like the PC took the OP's worries into consideration. I guess he has Emerald Razor to do those touch attacks - keep in mind, it's one hit only. Outside that, you'd need deep impact or wraithstrike...
[As a caveat: If a player decides to blatantly write a 'bulletproof' background and gets smug about it (a sure one to set alarms ringing is 'I have no siblings, and both my parents died in completely normal circumstances when I left home'), just say 'sure, that's what you remember happened in your life', smile and walk away. Then go watch 'The Manchurian Candidate']
oh god oh god oh god, seriously, no this is a terrible plan and will upset your players so much it's not even funny. Do not under any circumstances just blatantly rewrite a player's backstory. That.....
BSB is a great class, that does its job very well, and is a lot of fun to play with. If your other players are competent, and you don't allow beardfist style abuse, I think you'll be fine as it stands.