http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8253&source=search
I'm interested in what other people think of it. There's some good rebalancing but they haven't made all the classes available yet.
Their "Pathfinder" adaption looks kind of interesting. The first part of their alpha version is available here:
http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8253&source=search
I'm interested in what other people think of it. There's some good rebalancing but they haven't made all the classes available yet.
At a glance, it looks like they've boosted casters somewhat. Paizo: Taking the balance out of re-balance.
At a glance, it looks like they've boosted casters somewhat. Paizo: Taking the balance out of re-balance.
Actually, they've dropped the clerics down in power considerably (Less spells per day and no domain spells) while moving the rest up to the same kind of level.
While I like the changes they've made to specialist wizards, I'm not sure they're necessary
Super-specialization in a single suit of armor and a single weapon is a weakness, not a strength.
- Dwarves: +2 wis ^^ But still a bad paladin race due to charisma hit :/
- Elves: At last, playable. And wizard worthy. Spell penetration and +2 int. And improved weapon familiarity.
- Gnomes: +2 cha ^^ woo-hoo!
- Half-Elves: Wow, neat! +2 to any stat, 1 class skill forever and 1 weapon proficiency? Even exotic weapons? Great deal, along with fluffy stuff like elven blood and skill bonuses.
- Half-Orcs: Well, they make nice clerics, but still they seem underpowered.
- Halflings: Wow, great rogue, wizard or both race. +2 int, perfect ^^
- Humans: Trades all the fluffy stuff of the half-elf for a bonus feat. They are simple and powerful.
Classes:
- More feats make the human bonus feat somewhat less attractive. Maybe half-elves are the best race.
- Clerics are pretty much the same.
- Fighters have a better class skill list. The armor training/weapon training abilities make the dead levels a lot better, but their power is pretty much at the same levels. Armor mastery is good, but not at that level -_-
- Rogues are awesome. The skill system benefits them most and they get rogue talents which are not half bad. Master strike is nice, but they get it too late. Also boosted hit die ^^
- Wizards get a d6 hit die. They are unchanged, except from the school powers. Specialist wizards can prepare prohibited spells, but they don't get the school powers. There's a universal school for those who don't want to select a specific school.
Feats:
- Deadly Aim: Ranged power attack? A little worse, but close.
- Power Attack: It's a lot worse now, since it is capped off strength. Still great to have.
- Cleave: If this is a shot of making this feat better, it's unsuccessful. You can just use your high bab to hit those two and you can even have more than two attacks. Useful at low levels and only if you are facing multiple enemies, as it doesn't work against a single opponent.
- Mobility: Nice! Only problem is that you have to use dodge in the previous round.
- Spring Attack: Oh. No. This is ruined. Assuming you get to activate only one combat feat before you make attack rolls, you can use this only once every three rounds.
Magic:
- Conjurers get acid dart ability at will. Can you say sneak attack :D? Dimensional steps are great, too. Summoning master is broken-good.
- Diviners get a great specialist bonus.
- Enchanters get aura of despair for a number of rounds equal to their CL. Perfect if you want to cast a spell through, it's a +2 to your DC essentially. Legendary charm is brokenly good as well :P.
- Evokers are still bad :P they get an immunity piercing ability at 20th level
fireray is good for sneak attackers, but fire is the most common resistance. I'd stick with conjurer. - Illusionists get blinding ray :P awesome.
- Necromancy: 8HD/CL ?!? And an ability that animates dead without a component? At 20th level you become undead and gain immunity to positive energy damage :S wtf
- Trasmuters get an enchancement bonus to their scrores, not that hot. They get a polymorph ability for a number of rounds up to their CL. The capstone ability is perfect though.
- Universal: Craft at half time and get a bonus metamagic feat. Great. Metamagic mastery is awesome. A 20th level wizard is able to persist 3 spells for free and still have charges left to use. Mastery is ok.
Skills:
- It's a nice system. You just choose a number of skills and you're set. A lot simpler than the skill points system. Although e.g. dipping rogue 1 at first level will make you able to disable traps as rogue 20.
- Move silently and hide are stealth, concentration is included in spellcraft. Essentially you get skills at a discount. That means that humans losing their bonus skill point/level doesn't hurt as much. Also skillful classes will have more versatility on skills.
Hope it helps a little ^^
They spent all that time "fixing" wizards, who don't need a power shift, and didn't touch the sorcerer, which is IMO criminal. Sorcerers can't even use the item bond thing that wizards got in 3.6, and with the wizard getting a better hit die, they lost that as well. Personally, I'd like to see a bonus feat progression on the sorcerer.
I really like the changes to trip/grapple/etc. A more streamlined process (no opposed rolls), and a less game-breaking implementation of the grapple system.
They didn't do anything to address the melee-magic imbalance at high levels. Of course, with ToB available, that's not as big a deal, as long as people are happy using ToB martial characters.
In all: not too bad. Worth a shot, and if they're serious about taking playtest feedback and incorporating the changes, I'll be REALLY happy. If not, it's just another thing. Still, it's nice to see that someone is stepping up and taking advantage of this obvious market.
Some disagreements over specifics (current clerics are an much stronger since the sole addition to the class is "domain powers" which are essentially just the domain spells and abilities once per day, they've lost the domain slot & another spell per day per spell level on top of that) but fairly close overall.
The combat system changes are pretty decent.
The skill system is nice (btw. humans didn't lose their extra skill - it's still there just worded differently).
The combat feats - yeah overcomplicated and bad assignment.
Fighters? Yeah, no huge change there. That's always going to be a problem with any "3.5" system that keeps the "I-hit-stuff-good" classes. The armour and weapon talents aren't a bad start though - they make fighters a bit better at what they're meant to be good at & make it easier to soak up those feat penalties.
Overall, for an alpha test release - it's pretty strong.
I really like the changes to trip/grapple/etc. A more streamlined process (no opposed rolls), and a less game-breaking implementation of the grapple system.
What did they do to grapple? A static Saga-style defense?
+1
With grapple, there are various states ranging from "held" to "pinned" that you achieve based on how much you beat the opposing DC by. You also make a grapple check as a standard action - no more flurry of grapples.
Identifying magic items has been made so trivial I wonder why it is included in the system at all. A 6th level Wizard can obtain an Appraise modifier of +15 by being Trained (+9), having an Int of 18 (+4), and owning a Masterwork Tool (+2). As they can cast Detect Magic at will all day long, they can effectively Take 20, getting them the recquisite 35 to Identify a non-artifact item with a Caster Level of 20 or lower.
Identification has always been a PITA. The DM has to keep track of all the unidentified stuff, and the identify spell is really unlikely to detect a cursed item anyway. Given that the MIC contains an item that does the same thing - cast detect magic, identify an item for free in a minute (the Artificer's Monocle) - I'd say, it's not that big a deal. Might as well put something in there, otherwise you have to RP the big +3 that is engraved on the sword's hilt, but the bookkeeping is otherwise horrendous.
I ran RttToEE once, and the party would regularly have a list of ten or twelve items that needed identification. I had to index each item with a number, so I could look it up later in my notebooks. What a pain.
I do applaud that they are trying to make the PHB classes worth taking to 20. I have hopes that they can do more for Fighters, and eagerly await the Beta. Some of my pals can't afford to go 4e, and the free Beta rules will keep our game going until they have the money to upgrade.
Why couldn't this have come out within a month of Saga ed, though?
I really like the changes to trip/grapple/etc. A more streamlined process (no opposed rolls), and a less game-breaking implementation of the grapple system.
Agreed allot can be said about simplicity, especially when introducing the idea to newbie players.
I haven't given it a serious read through but aside from few iffy bits I really like it.
P.S. Fighters need Weapon Aptitude like Warblades. Period. Maybe an Armour Aptitude that takes 24 hours to “Re-focus”.
I’m going to print off a copy and show it to my gaming group tonight and see what they think.
I like the Wizard Specialization changes.
what's not to like :P?
- the extra feat and half crafting time?
- the persistent summon monster x ?
- the cohort?
- the 8HD/CL of component-less undead creation?
Races and skills systems are ok, the class changes (especially wizards) are not.
I like the Cleric and Wizard changes for the most part.
@pfooti - the Sorcerer is coming in release 2 or 3, they are rolling out the Alpha in waves. I'm just happy that they had so much ready for their announcement (ahem).
Yeah, they should roll back the wizard changes. I mean as I read these rules, specialist wizards can even cast spells from their (so-called) prohibited schools. All they did was (a) make wizards more powerful and (b) make focused specialists WAY more powerful.
I think the idea was to remove the specialist spell slots (no focused specialists) & give an optional specialisation bonus when you satisfy your specialisation reqs for the day.
In other words, take away the abusive part of specialising & the part nobody ever likes (completely losing a school)
In general I really like what they've started. It will be an OPEN playtest, so the rules are still wide-open for change. This gives them over a year to really get it right, with devoted fans chiming in all along the way.
I like the Cleric and Wizard changes for the most part.
More or less my opinions on it.
Focused specialist is still compatible with existing specialists, really. They prohibit another school, sacrifice a slot, and in return they get 2 slots / level of their specialized school. It doesn't make thematic sense, but it does work mechanically.
I'm also looking forward to the other classes. A friend pointed out that these changes make the base classes more interesting and competitive, so you're not looking to hop out of Wizard after level 5, for example. That's a good point.
what's not to like :P?
- the extra feat and half crafting time?
- the persistent summon monster x ?
- the cohort?
- the 8HD/CL of component-less undead creation?
Races and skills systems are ok, the class changes (especially wizards) are not.
Why shouldn't God be more powerful than all of his subjects?;)
I wonder what you'd see if you compared the level 10 to 20 abilities from some of these specializations with one of the currently popular optimizard Wizard builds. Most of those that I see skip out of Wizard by level 4 if possible.
Feats:
- Deadly Aim: Ranged power attack? A little worse, but close.
- Power Attack: It's a lot worse now, since it is capped off strength. Still great to have.
- Cleave: If this is a shot of making this feat better, it's unsuccessful. You can just use your high bab to hit those two and you can even have more than two attacks. Useful at low levels and only if you are facing multiple enemies, as it doesn't work against a single opponent.
- Mobility: Nice! Only problem is that you have to use dodge in the previous round.
- Spring Attack: Oh. No. This is ruined. Assuming you get to activate only one combat feat before you make attack rolls, you can use this only once every three rounds.
-Dont forget that Dodge works against all opponets!
I noticed that you didnt post it. 18DELTA;)
Is there any ruling on Polymorph? I love playing metaporphs and that's waht really interests me.
Those are in the next installments.
For the omitions, the table listing which skills were rolled together and renamed forgot to list Tumble, even though tumble is quite obviously rolled into Acrobatics.
The Human racial abilities really need clarifying. Do the get bonus skill points or not?
Not sure what I feel about characters getting feats every 2 levels instead of every 3. Just a base power-boost if you ask me. Not really needed.
The skill changes overall were alright. Easier to implement if you're making characters above 1st level. It does sort of screw you over if you are aiming for a PrC's prerequisites, though. You'll get the required ranks, and then you'll still have to invest in it, even if you don't want to. And yeah, it makes that first level dip into rogue even more delicious than it already was. I'd have to think it through before implementing it.
I liked most of the class changes. The cleric and wizard changes were interesting, if a bit overpowered (potentially). The cleric changes were better balanced than the wizard free add-ons; at least the clerics lost some spell slots.
I hated the Combat Maneuver feats, which basically take many of the standard feats and make them into tactical feats that you have to spend 3 rounds "setting up" before you can use them. Way too much of a headache, and way to limiting for the fighter, which already has a tough job staying relevant. Also, the change to power attack makes it all or nothing. You can't just take a -1/+1 (unless your str is 13). The way it is worded you must take a penalty equal to your Str mod, or not use it at all. I also don't like that you can only use one combat maneuver feat each round.
Grapple: Perhaps the check vs DC system will work better, but I dislike how you cannot deal damage in a grapple, which is exactly what many animals do in real life (dogs with rabbits, bears, etc), and I also don't like how you can't attempt to do something and then succeed or fail; what you do is determined by your role. I don't like that at all.
On the whole, I might implement some of this at a later point in my non-4th ed gaming career. The races seemed like nice changes (especially the change to human and half-elf favored classes), and the basic class changes are decent (still wary about the wizard changes), though I'll still likely allow fighters to choose Martial Study an unlimited number of times, as that is a better option to fix them.
They'd need to alter a lot in this system before I'd use it whole-hog.
For the omitions, the table listing which skills were rolled together and renamed forgot to list Tumble, even though tumble is quite obviously rolled into Acrobatics.
Since this is an update, and Tumble is not listed, it still is its own skill. This makes sense from a balance perspective, even if its a bit unrealistic.
The Human racial abilities really need clarifying. Do the get bonus skill points or not?
Since they get any skill as a class skill, and its always considered in-class, yup.
Not sure what I feel about characters getting feats every 2 levels instead of every 3. Just a base power-boost if you ask me. Not really needed.
But the feats in general are weaker (the Power-Attack equivalent one for ranged fighters seems strong, though).
Not sure what I feel about characters getting feats every 2 levels instead of every 3. Just a base power-boost if you ask me. Not really needed.
It's not really needed in a world with lots of splat-book prestige classes, Tome of Battle base classes, etc. But it seems to me like they're trying to downplay the importance of non-core classes; if that's the case, then having lots of feats is a useful way to customize your character.
I could be wrong -- often am.
On a personal note:
- I like Paizo's work with the Adventure Paths
- I'm in no rush to convert to 4th Edition (just like I was in no rush to move to 2nd or 3rd Edition!)
- I like OGL content
...so I'm interested in seeing how this develops. I suspect it'll end up being a niche product (like Iron Heroes, Arcana Evolved, E6, etc.) but at least they've grabbed my attention so far.
If this project of Paizo works out, there will be very little work on my part to run a 3.75 (or 3.6) game.
Since this is an update, and Tumble is not listed, it still is its own skill. This makes sense from a balance perspective, even if its a bit unrealistic.
Look at the Acrobatics skill itself. It includes the things Tumble allows you to do (move w/o provoking AoO's, etc).
Since they get any skill as a class skill, and its always considered in-class, yup.
Ah, hadn't gotten to the altered skill system when that question came up in my mind. Given those changes, yeah, it works.
But the feats in general are weaker (the Power-Attack equivalent one for ranged fighters seems strong, though).
True. If I use any of this, I'll probably disregard their major changes to feats. I simply despise turning any useful combat feat tree into a giant tactical feat. Bad move, IMO.
True. If I use any of this, I'll probably disregard their major changes to feats. I simply despise turning any useful combat feat tree into a giant tactical feat. Bad move, IMO.
I think the idea of combat feat chains is reasonable but I think they made some bad calls on which ones to treat as combat feats & how to deal with them.
Something like this might work better (rough):
Power attack tree:
Power attack - Add up to your str to damage again by taking the same bonus as a penalty to attack.
Cleave -add +1 to your max power attack modifier. If you drop someone with a power attack, immediately make another attack
great cleave -Your max power attack is now 2Xstr, if you drop someone with a power attack you may make your bonus attack after your next turns movement.
Basically, some small improvement on a previous feat in the chain, alongside an extra circumstantial ability
They spent all that time "fixing" wizards, who don't need a power shift, and didn't touch the sorcerer, which is IMO criminal. Sorcerers can't even use the item bond thing that wizards got in 3.6, and with the wizard getting a better hit die, they lost that as well. Personally, I'd like to see a bonus feat progression on the sorcerer.
You could try reading the whole document. This isn't the whole of the rules; they're going to have a second alpha release in a couple weeks that includes sorcerer. There will be three releases total, including the one we have now, and they will redo all of the core base classes.
The Wizard stuff looks much more flavorful, though, which I like.
They've made the Rogue slightly more like DPS MMORG Rogues, which is interesting, but they don't seem too over the top.
I don't like the Fighter feat nerfs.
I like the skill system; several DMs I've helped playtest some custom stuff already were using this sort of thing. I like the change to Diplomacy.
Combat seems a little streamlined, but its not too crazy. I do like the set DCs instead of contested rolls a bit.
still, necromancers are pretty crazy. I mean at CL 20 they get 160HD of undead :S
Is that really hugely different than 80 HD of undead? In my experience, DMs tend to discourage having a big undead entourage, so this probably won't make a big difference for PCs (depending on your campaign).
@pfooti: They specifically mentioned there'll be different bloodlines for sorcerers (presumably similar to the domains for clerics and the specialist abilities for wizards). They also mentioned that all poor-BAB classes have d6 hit points, all medium-BAB classes have d8 and all full-BAB classes have d10 (except for the barbarian).
No combat feat chains - combat feats now can only be used one at a time but can be used at any time. (They've been changed and buffed up a bit)
Fighters get their bonuses in all armour & pick a weapon group to specialise in every 4 levels. All previous weapon specialisations also improve one step whenever another weapon group is gained.