AoO build advice - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

AoO build advice

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
darth_versity
Apr 11, 2011 10:19:05 My DM's setting has the Anthropomorphic Snake from Savage species but without the NA bonus and no Racial HD.

So it gets :
Large Size
-8 STR
+10 DEX
-2 CON
+4 WIS
-4 Cha

and a bunch of other goodies.

I was thinking about making a spiked chain wielding AoO monster, but im not sure on what classes to take to get all my feats.

I know I need at least 2 levels of swordsage for WIS to AC and the Shadow Blade Feat, but not sure whether to take it all the way of put in something with a higher BAB.

The feats I want are:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
Weapon Finesse
Combat Reflexes
Shadow Blade
Mage Slayer
Aberrant Blood
Inhuman Reach
Improved Initiative
Adaptive Style

Obviously I need to prioritise so they are in the order that I feel is most important to least as I cant fit them all in.

Any help and ideas on how to make it an amazing melee battlefield controller would be really appreciated. Its a 28 pt buy and we start at lvl 10.
#2
aelryinth
Apr 11, 2011 22:40:54 swordsage 1, f/8, swordsage/2. F/8 alone gets you five feats, you get the other four you need from levels, there are your feats.

Is Spiked Chain on the Shadow Blade list? i didn't think it was, but I could be wrong. Remember you need to be in a Shadow Blade stance to use it.

That's not a great AoO build. The Stance you want is Thicket of Blades, so nobody can avoid your AoO's with Tumble. Use your Reach to Stand Still them, lock them in place, and then leisurely pick them off.

Not sure why you want adaptive style, either. Swordsage is going to be only useful for a Stance, and maybe the Diamond Mind save manuvers.

See Lockdown in my sig for some ideas. As soon as you get Robilar's and can hit someone back for swinging at you, you are in business.

==Aelryinth
#3
darth_versity
Apr 13, 2011 9:15:12 Well truth be told I've never made a AoO build before so not sure what to put in. I could see that the race was perfect for it though with it's high dex and large size. If you can come up with another suggestion that works from lvl 10-20 then I'm all ears.
#4
aelryinth
Apr 13, 2011 18:58:07 Race is important for the +LA. I don't know what your +LA mod is. If it's high, you're better off with character levels and extra feats, and using Enlarge Person and Dex boosters, or being Polymorphed into a Firbolg.

===Aelryinth
#5
darth_versity
Apr 14, 2011 8:33:26 Thats a LA 0 race and no Racial HD either. So large size and +10 DEX right off the bat. Seemed like a pretty good deal to me.
#6
aelryinth
Apr 14, 2011 21:42:13 What?

You're playing a size L race (+2 LA right there), that gains +10 Dex on top? And no +LA?

ooookay...way outside my gaming advice paradigm, then.

===Aelryinth
#7
darth_versity
Apr 15, 2011 3:27:45 Surely the race being strong doesn't change how a good AoO build would work. If anything it should make it easier.
#8
eardatch
Apr 15, 2011 7:58:35 A monk with overwhelming attack fighting style gets power attack as a bonus without the need for 13 str. That, weapon finesse with a spinning sword (secrets of sarlona), stand still, and decisive strike flurry variant (PHBII) should make a mean lockdown character.

Edit: Oh, also, you'll want a dip into Exotic weapon master for uncanny blow so you get 2:1 power attack ratio with the spinning sword. If you can find a way to make spiked chains special monk weapons I'd just go with that though.
#9
eardatch
Apr 15, 2011 8:25:39 This is how I might build it:
28 pt buy

2 str (2 pts)
26 dex (10 pts)
12 con (6 pts)
12 int (4 pts)
18 wis (6 pts)
4 cha (0 pts)

Monk 1/ Fighter 1/Warblade 4/Crusader 2/Warblade +1/EWM 1/Warblade +2/Fighter +1/Warblade +x
1 - Power attack (bonus), Exotic weapon prof (spinning sword), combat reflexes (flaw)
2 - Weapon finesse
3 - Stand still
6 - weapon focus (spinning sword)
8 - Thicket of Blades (stance)
9 - Iron Heart Aura (Bonus), Stormguard Warrior
10 - Uncanny Blow (Special Ability)
12 - Improved Combat reflexes (dragon 340?)
13 - Robliar's Gambit
15, 18 - open

If you can use a spiked chain with flurry somehow, drop the weapon focus and the EWM level (this will let you get to warblade 15 for int bonus to AoOs)

Edit: Oops, forgot weapon finesse the first time. You'll need a flaw to complete the above build in reasonable time.
#10
aelryinth
Apr 15, 2011 21:19:43 Lord knows, with a base 26 dex = 9 AoO's, he doesn't need Imp Combat Reflexes. And Robilar's gambit you want as soon as possible to crush your enemies. A Lockdown build is driven by the number of AoO's it generates. The high level feat you want is Defensive Sweep, so if they move, Thicket triggers the AoO, and if they don't, Defensive Sweep triggers the AoO. If they attack you, AoO. If they don't, full attack.

Overwhelming Attack (f/16) is divine on a build like this, because all those extra attacks do double damage. You can take out an elder dragon in one round.

Oh, you want Close Quarters Combat, so if you are grappled you get another AoO and don't get grappled up.

==Aelryinth
#11
eardatch
Apr 17, 2011 10:55:59 The Improved combat reflexes I suggested is not the epic one but the one from Dragon which allows an additional Attack at -5 for each opportunity (using up an additional attack). Also, in the above build, Robilar's is taken as soon as possible considering the loss of BAB from monk.

Also, defensive sweep, unless house-ruled to work on threatened enemies and not just adjacent, will not work with reach.
#12
uhm_hoi
Apr 18, 2011 15:11:12 I guess anything with stormguard warrior to boost your damage output will work wonders. Maybe a warblade something with TWF, weapon finesse, combat reflexes, karmic strike, robilar's gambit, double hit, stormguard warrior and maneuvers like raging mongoose and avalanche of blades would work? Does the thing have a favored class or do we not have to worry about it? You didn't mention you'd like any spellcasting, but a +4 wis is actually just to good not to use. perhaps you could make a ruby knight vindicator or something? With cleric spellcasting you could get divine power and righteous might making you huge (w spiked chain, that is a 30 ft reach) +6 str from divine power and +8 from righteous might which would make a standstill build viable. I dont really have time to come up with complete builds right now, but those could be some ideas to work with.
#13
eardatch
Apr 19, 2011 10:30:56 Oh I wish people would read before posting. Power attack is gained as a monk bonus feat from the overwhelming attack style, and thus is gained regardless of prereqs.
#14
uhm_hoi
Apr 19, 2011 11:12:28 Woops sorry about that, i editted and fixed it.
#15
eardatch
Apr 22, 2011 16:40:25 S'all right. I'd be careful about suggesting Robilar's and Karmic strike. Aelryinth's been asserting that the two don't work together.
#16
Captain_Kobold
Apr 22, 2011 17:05:26 Just one issue that I see at first glance.

You can't use a Spiked chain and keep your Swordsage bonuses. You're not strong enough.
Even assuming that you're naked, with no clothes, items or armour, a spiked chain would put you into heavy load.

A spinning sword, you can just about use. Don't even think about carrying anything else though.
Armour, potions, and most magic items are right out.

You're also facing a -4 to weapon damage, grappling, and most other combat effects.
#17
eardatch
Apr 23, 2011 17:17:14 Errr, a mithrial spiked chain? A bit annoying but it works.
#18
Captain_Kobold
Apr 23, 2011 18:33:13 Nope. Still too heavy.
#19
eardatch
Apr 24, 2011 14:15:14 Light load for 2 strength is 6 lbs.
A spiked chain weighs 10 lbs.
Mithral halves this weight to 5 lbs.
What am I missing?
#20
Captain_Kobold
Apr 24, 2011 14:45:18 Sorry. Maths failure in my part.
Light load is 12lbs for large sized creature with strength of 2.
Weight of Large sized Spiked Chain is 20lb, mithril halves this to 10lb.

So yep. Can use the spiked chain if its mithril.

Not a character concept that I think that I'd try to play personally: I'd have trouble resolving a large sized creature weaker than a housecat. On mass issues alone, it just doesn't seem to make sense.
The first magic item that you get should probably be an item of strength. That should allow you to use most other magic items.
#21
eardatch
Apr 24, 2011 17:43:30 True, forgot about the weight of magic items. I guess one should drop the dex to 24 for a 6 str.
#22
darth_versity
May 03, 2011 15:52:01 Sorry about the late reply, i moved last week and been waiting for the broadband to get connected. Its been a bitch without it!

Definetly think a STR 2 is a no go area, mostly because my DM has a particular fondness for STR drain creatures, I've seen 3 characters die from that in previous campaigns with him (he tends to roll 6's a lot his d6)

Uhm I like your idea of spellcasting with ruby knight, but DM has ruled no DMM, dunno if you were thinking of that with Divine Power and Righteous Might.

The races favoured class is Rogue, but we rarely take notice of the multiclass rules unless someone does something ridiculous like have 5 base classes.

Im now thinking of some massive Cleric/Crusader build that wont allow anyone to sneeze without taking an AoO. Keep the ideas coming, its really helping.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 darth_versity Apr 11, 2011 10:19:05	My DM's setting has the Anthropomorphic Snake from Savage species but without the NA bonus and no Racial HD. So it gets : Large Size -8 STR +10 DEX -2 CON +4 WIS -4 Cha and a bunch of other goodies. I was thinking about making a spiked chain wielding AoO monster, but im not sure on what classes to take to get all my feats. I know I need at least 2 levels of swordsage for WIS to AC and the Shadow Blade Feat, but not sure whether to take it all the way of put in something with a higher BAB. The feats I want are: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) Weapon Finesse Combat Reflexes Shadow Blade Mage Slayer Aberrant Blood Inhuman Reach Improved Initiative Adaptive Style Obviously I need to prioritise so they are in the order that I feel is most important to least as I cant fit them all in. Any help and ideas on how to make it an amazing melee battlefield controller would be really appreciated. Its a 28 pt buy and we start at lvl 10.
#2 aelryinth Apr 11, 2011 22:40:54	swordsage 1, f/8, swordsage/2. F/8 alone gets you five feats, you get the other four you need from levels, there are your feats. Is Spiked Chain on the Shadow Blade list? i didn't think it was, but I could be wrong. Remember you need to be in a Shadow Blade stance to use it. That's not a great AoO build. The Stance you want is Thicket of Blades, so nobody can avoid your AoO's with Tumble. Use your Reach to Stand Still them, lock them in place, and then leisurely pick them off. Not sure why you want adaptive style, either. Swordsage is going to be only useful for a Stance, and maybe the Diamond Mind save manuvers. See Lockdown in my sig for some ideas. As soon as you get Robilar's and can hit someone back for swinging at you, you are in business. ==Aelryinth
#3 darth_versity Apr 13, 2011 9:15:12	Well truth be told I've never made a AoO build before so not sure what to put in. I could see that the race was perfect for it though with it's high dex and large size. If you can come up with another suggestion that works from lvl 10-20 then I'm all ears.
#4 aelryinth Apr 13, 2011 18:58:07	Race is important for the +LA. I don't know what your +LA mod is. If it's high, you're better off with character levels and extra feats, and using Enlarge Person and Dex boosters, or being Polymorphed into a Firbolg. ===Aelryinth
#5 darth_versity Apr 14, 2011 8:33:26	Thats a LA 0 race and no Racial HD either. So large size and +10 DEX right off the bat. Seemed like a pretty good deal to me.
#6 aelryinth Apr 14, 2011 21:42:13	What? You're playing a size L race (+2 LA right there), that gains +10 Dex on top? And no +LA? ooookay...way outside my gaming advice paradigm, then. ===Aelryinth
#7 darth_versity Apr 15, 2011 3:27:45	Surely the race being strong doesn't change how a good AoO build would work. If anything it should make it easier.
#8 eardatch Apr 15, 2011 7:58:35	A monk with overwhelming attack fighting style gets power attack as a bonus without the need for 13 str. That, weapon finesse with a spinning sword (secrets of sarlona), stand still, and decisive strike flurry variant (PHBII) should make a mean lockdown character. Edit: Oh, also, you'll want a dip into Exotic weapon master for uncanny blow so you get 2:1 power attack ratio with the spinning sword. If you can find a way to make spiked chains special monk weapons I'd just go with that though.
#9 eardatch Apr 15, 2011 8:25:39	This is how I might build it: 28 pt buy 2 str (2 pts) 26 dex (10 pts) 12 con (6 pts) 12 int (4 pts) 18 wis (6 pts) 4 cha (0 pts) Monk 1/ Fighter 1/Warblade 4/Crusader 2/Warblade +1/EWM 1/Warblade +2/Fighter +1/Warblade +x 1 - Power attack (bonus), Exotic weapon prof (spinning sword), combat reflexes (flaw) 2 - Weapon finesse 3 - Stand still 6 - weapon focus (spinning sword) 8 - Thicket of Blades (stance) 9 - Iron Heart Aura (Bonus), Stormguard Warrior 10 - Uncanny Blow (Special Ability) 12 - Improved Combat reflexes (dragon 340?) 13 - Robliar's Gambit 15, 18 - open If you can use a spiked chain with flurry somehow, drop the weapon focus and the EWM level (this will let you get to warblade 15 for int bonus to AoOs) Edit: Oops, forgot weapon finesse the first time. You'll need a flaw to complete the above build in reasonable time.
#10 aelryinth Apr 15, 2011 21:19:43	Lord knows, with a base 26 dex = 9 AoO's, he doesn't need Imp Combat Reflexes. And Robilar's gambit you want as soon as possible to crush your enemies. A Lockdown build is driven by the number of AoO's it generates. The high level feat you want is Defensive Sweep, so if they move, Thicket triggers the AoO, and if they don't, Defensive Sweep triggers the AoO. If they attack you, AoO. If they don't, full attack. Overwhelming Attack (f/16) is divine on a build like this, because all those extra attacks do double damage. You can take out an elder dragon in one round. Oh, you want Close Quarters Combat, so if you are grappled you get another AoO and don't get grappled up. ==Aelryinth
#11 eardatch Apr 17, 2011 10:55:59	The Improved combat reflexes I suggested is not the epic one but the one from Dragon which allows an additional Attack at -5 for each opportunity (using up an additional attack). Also, in the above build, Robilar's is taken as soon as possible considering the loss of BAB from monk. Also, defensive sweep, unless house-ruled to work on threatened enemies and not just adjacent, will not work with reach.
#12 uhm_hoi Apr 18, 2011 15:11:12	I guess anything with stormguard warrior to boost your damage output will work wonders. Maybe a warblade something with TWF, weapon finesse, combat reflexes, karmic strike, robilar's gambit, double hit, stormguard warrior and maneuvers like raging mongoose and avalanche of blades would work? Does the thing have a favored class or do we not have to worry about it? You didn't mention you'd like any spellcasting, but a +4 wis is actually just to good not to use. perhaps you could make a ruby knight vindicator or something? With cleric spellcasting you could get divine power and righteous might making you huge (w spiked chain, that is a 30 ft reach) +6 str from divine power and +8 from righteous might which would make a standstill build viable. I dont really have time to come up with complete builds right now, but those could be some ideas to work with.
#13 eardatch Apr 19, 2011 10:30:56	Oh I wish people would read before posting. Power attack is gained as a monk bonus feat from the overwhelming attack style, and thus is gained regardless of prereqs.
#14 uhm_hoi Apr 19, 2011 11:12:28	Woops sorry about that, i editted and fixed it.
#15 eardatch Apr 22, 2011 16:40:25	S'all right. I'd be careful about suggesting Robilar's and Karmic strike. Aelryinth's been asserting that the two don't work together.
#16 Captain_Kobold Apr 22, 2011 17:05:26	Just one issue that I see at first glance. You can't use a Spiked chain and keep your Swordsage bonuses. You're not strong enough. Even assuming that you're naked, with no clothes, items or armour, a spiked chain would put you into heavy load. A spinning sword, you can just about use. Don't even think about carrying anything else though. Armour, potions, and most magic items are right out. You're also facing a -4 to weapon damage, grappling, and most other combat effects.
#17 eardatch Apr 23, 2011 17:17:14	Errr, a mithrial spiked chain? A bit annoying but it works.
#18 Captain_Kobold Apr 23, 2011 18:33:13	Nope. Still too heavy.
#19 eardatch Apr 24, 2011 14:15:14	Light load for 2 strength is 6 lbs. A spiked chain weighs 10 lbs. Mithral halves this weight to 5 lbs. What am I missing?
#20 Captain_Kobold Apr 24, 2011 14:45:18	Sorry. Maths failure in my part. Light load is 12lbs for large sized creature with strength of 2. Weight of Large sized Spiked Chain is 20lb, mithril halves this to 10lb. So yep. Can use the spiked chain if its mithril. Not a character concept that I think that I'd try to play personally: I'd have trouble resolving a large sized creature weaker than a housecat. On mass issues alone, it just doesn't seem to make sense. The first magic item that you get should probably be an item of strength. That should allow you to use most other magic items.
#21 eardatch Apr 24, 2011 17:43:30	True, forgot about the weight of magic items. I guess one should drop the dex to 24 for a 6 str.
#22 darth_versity May 03, 2011 15:52:01	Sorry about the late reply, i moved last week and been waiting for the broadband to get connected. Its been a bitch without it! Definetly think a STR 2 is a no go area, mostly because my DM has a particular fondness for STR drain creatures, I've seen 3 characters die from that in previous campaigns with him (he tends to roll 6's a lot his d6) Uhm I like your idea of spellcasting with ruby knight, but DM has ruled no DMM, dunno if you were thinking of that with Divine Power and Righteous Might. The races favoured class is Rogue, but we rarely take notice of the multiclass rules unless someone does something ridiculous like have 5 base classes. Im now thinking of some massive Cleric/Crusader build that wont allow anyone to sneeze without taking an AoO. Keep the ideas coming, its really helping.