Applying Necropolitan 3.5e - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 laeresh Feb 11, 2013 8:32:34	I registered so I could ask this question. I've come across it numerous times, for a campaign I want to be a Necropolitan Necromancer (roleplay reasons). The thing is, the LA of the Necropolitan template is 0, it however describes a ritual costing 1 level en 1k XP. However, I've read a couple of times that you can loop the rules, saying the cost are to become Necropolitan and can be ignored if you begin as and "already are" a Necropolitan. Now, giving out a level and 1k of XP seems hugely unbalanced to me, especially since another member in the party only has to sacrifice 1 level to become a bugbear, talk about a power difference there. So is there any way to apply the Necropolitan template without losing a level, or a good argument to convince my DM to take it without the ritual cost. Secondly, why the hell is it stated as LA0 instead of LA+1 if there is no way around this. Thanks in advance and sorry if I posted in the wrong forum.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 11, 2013 10:31:31	Now, giving out a level and 1k of XP seems hugely unbalanced to me, especially since another member in the party only has to sacrifice 1 level to become a bugbear, talk about a power difference there. 1) Bugbears give up four levels, not one. They have racial hit dice. 2) Undead is a much more powerful type in general than Monstrous Humanoid. Necropolitan is a bargain. (EDIT: I keep forgetting that goblinoids are humanoid, not monstrous humanoid.) So is there any way to apply the Necropolitan template without losing a level, or a good argument to convince my DM to take it without the ritual cost. There's no low-level way to become a necropolitan except through its ritual. (High level characters can do it easier with shapechanging stunts.) Just talk to your DM. There's no good way to convince all DMs about this - necropolitan is a powerful template in the right hands, particularly if you know what it's capable of (i.e. spellstitching to cast useful necromantic spells without XP/GP costs), but for a basic game it's not that much above, say, Dragonborn (the other "modify another race" template) or Warforged (a basic race that's also of a nonstandard, high-immunity type). It's probably a bit stronger than the Elan (another basic race that has a nonstandard type as its biggest advantage), but not by much, and largely due to having increased compatibility with other rules abilities. Secondly, why the hell is it stated as LA0 instead of LA+1 if there is no way around this. Level adjustments work differently than you seem to think. If it were LA+1 instead of a level loss / XP cost, a level 3 character who became a necropolitan would be treated as level 4 for all purposes relating to XP, meaning that while he and his buddies may both have 3000xp, he will receive less XP for a given battle than his allies, and his allies will reach their next level after only 3000xp, while he would need to amass 7000xp to go up a level. If it simply costs 1000xp and a level (via resurrection), then nothing changes. A level 3 character who becomes a necropolitan loses would fall somewhere to level 2 (I'm simplifying a bit, the details don't matter that much) and would thus gain more XP from battle than his allies until he reaches the same level as them (this is the same trick as the "one level gravy train" used to accelerate item creation). Once the levels even out, he will advance at exactly the same rate as his allies. This matters most for spellcasters, whose power is tied most strongly to their actual level. You will find necropolitan spellcasters. You will almost never find useful bugbear spellcasters (four levels behind their buddies = true suckage). Necropolitan is a bargain for what you get, especially if you get it early and do your homework.
#3 laeresh Feb 11, 2013 10:53:42	Thanks for all your help, I'll simply become a Necropolitan at 3th level and catch up from there. Charisma of 20 and points in disguise will save my ass from the angry townfolk ^^
#4 frost.fire Feb 11, 2013 11:12:36	When in doubt hat of disguise is very handy :P
#5 StevenO Feb 11, 2013 13:21:11	When it comes to species I'd say bugbear are pretty bad. For a caster you should just forget about it. For a skill type character needing to start with a three HD in a skill poor "class" sucks. Now I guess it can almost work for a melee type as +4 STR can help make up for the attack loss thru Humanoid 3 and +1 LA and the +2 CON can eventually help make up for the lost HD and smaller humanoid dice. As for the Necropolitian it may not seem like it give you a lot but like Tempest mentions it is a very good +0 LA for some types of characters. As he points out being down XP and a level is a LOT better then having to deal with LA; now some may say you can "buy off" a LA but I'd just point out that to do that will require giving up XP and basically "going down" a level which is what the Necropolitian does up front. Although there are some drawbacks to being undead (and dying a zero hp instead of -10 could be one) you gain a pile of immunities and as a templated undead you should be getting to use d12s for HD on all your levels.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 11, 2013 14:20:24	Although there are some drawbacks to being undead (and dying a zero hp instead of -10 could be one) you gain a pile of immunities and as a templated undead you should be getting to use d12s for HD on all your levels. Elaborating a bit on this: d12 HD is 6.5 HP per level, and since you have a nonability Constitution you don't have an easy way of changing that (although the Improved Toughness feat will work). A cleric averages 4.5 HP per level before Constitution, so a cleric with 14 Constitution will have the same HP as a necropolitan (with -- constitution). Similarly, a rogue (3.5 HP/level) would need a 16 Constitution, while a wizard (2.5 HP/level) would need an 18 Constitution. The point-buy points you would normally spend on Constitution can be reallocated to your primary casting stat, making you a better spellcaster all around (i.e. assuming the standard 15/14/13/12/10/8 array, a wizard might put the 15 in Int and the 14 in Constitution, with the 13 likely going to Dexterity (the other three stats don't really matter to a wizard so we ignore them here). A necropolitan might put the 14 into Dexterity and shave the 13 down to an 8, putting the extra five points into Intelligence, raising it to 17. He'd put the 8 into Constitution, which will become a -- after he necropolitanizes himself). There's a lot more to Constitution and your durability than raw hit points, though - the most obvious example is effects that rely on a Fortitude save. However, by virtue of his Undead type, a necropolitan is flat-out immune to all effects that have a Fortitude save unless they also affect objects (and while some of those are downright deadly, they're the minority). You're also immune to a laundry list of conditions which occasionally show up on such spells (for instance, if a spell says Fortitue Negates (object) it'd normally work on you, but if it has, say, the [Death] descriptor, you'd still be immune), which includes any spell with the Mind-Affecting descriptor (despite having a mind, you're immune to effects that influence it). Furthermore, a small handful of effects only work on Humanoids (the stereotypical example is Charm Person, but Reduce Person still counts), and since you're not a Humanoid (your type is Undead) you're also immune to those. You also get "hidden" immunity to some other effects - for instance, since you don't breathe (and are immune to most things that would require you to inhale them anyway), you can basically ignore gas effects or any water that isn't deep enough to deal pressure damage. The immunities alone are well worth the price of admission to Necropolitan. The fact that you get more than that on top of the type is impressive, to say the least.
#7 StevenO Feb 11, 2013 15:43:59	Although there are some drawbacks to being undead (and dying a zero hp instead of -10 could be one) you gain a pile of immunities and as a templated undead you should be getting to use d12s for HD on all your levels. Elaborating a bit on this: d12 HD is 6.5 HP per level, and since you have a nonability Constitution you don't have an easy way of changing that (although the Improved Toughness feat will work). A cleric averages 4.5 HP per level before Constitution, so a cleric with 14 Constitution will have the same HP as a necropolitan (with -- constitution). Similarly, a rogue (3.5 HP/level) would need a 16 Constitution, while a wizard (2.5 HP/level) would need an 18 Constitution. The point-buy points you would normally spend on Constitution can be reallocated to your primary casting stat, making you a better spellcaster all around (i.e. assuming the standard 15/14/13/12/10/8 array, a wizard might put the 15 in Int and the 14 in Constitution, with the 13 likely going to Dexterity (the other three stats don't really matter to a wizard so we ignore them here). A necropolitan might put the 14 into Dexterity and shave the 13 down to an 8, putting the extra five points into Intelligence, raising it to 17. He'd put the 8 into Constitution, which will become a -- after he necropolitanizes himself). Show There's a lot more to Constitution and your durability than raw hit points, though - the most obvious example is effects that rely on a Fortitude save. However, by virtue of his Undead type, a necropolitan is flat-out immune to all effects that have a Fortitude save unless they also affect objects (and while some of those are downright deadly, they're the minority). You're also immune to a laundry list of conditions which occasionally show up on such spells (for instance, if a spell says Fortitue Negates (object) it'd normally work on you, but if it has, say, the [Death] descriptor, you'd still be immune), which includes any spell with the Mind-Affecting descriptor (despite having a mind, you're immune to effects that influence it). Furthermore, a small handful of effects only work on Humanoids (the stereotypical example is Charm Person, but Reduce Person still counts), and since you're not a Humanoid (your type is Undead) you're also immune to those. You also get "hidden" immunity to some other effects - for instance, since you don't breathe (and are immune to most things that would require you to inhale them anyway), you can basically ignore gas effects or any water that isn't deep enough to deal pressure damage. The immunities alone are well worth the price of admission to Necropolitan. The fact that you get more than that on top of the type is impressive, to say the least.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

laeresh

Feb 11, 2013 8:32:34

I registered so I could ask this question.
I've come across it numerous times, for a campaign I want to be a Necropolitan Necromancer (roleplay reasons).
The thing is, the LA of the Necropolitan template is 0, it however describes a ritual costing 1 level en 1k XP.
However, I've read a couple of times that you can loop the rules, saying the cost are to become Necropolitan and can be ignored if you begin as and "already are" a Necropolitan.
Now, giving out a level and 1k of XP seems hugely unbalanced to me, especially since another member in the party only has to sacrifice 1 level to become a bugbear, talk about a power difference there.

So is there any way to apply the Necropolitan template without losing a level, or a good argument to convince my DM to take it without the ritual cost.
Secondly, why the hell is it stated as LA0 instead of LA+1 if there is no way around this.

Thanks in advance and sorry if I posted in the wrong forum.

Tempest_Stormwind

Feb 11, 2013 10:31:31

Now, giving out a level and 1k of XP seems hugely unbalanced to me, especially since another member in the party only has to sacrifice 1 level to become a bugbear, talk about a power difference there.

1) Bugbears give up four levels, not one. They have racial hit dice.
2) Undead is a much more powerful type in general than Monstrous Humanoid. Necropolitan is a bargain. (EDIT: I keep forgetting that goblinoids are humanoid, not monstrous humanoid.)

So is there any way to apply the Necropolitan template without losing a level, or a good argument to convince my DM to take it without the ritual cost.

There's no low-level way to become a necropolitan except through its ritual. (High level characters can do it easier with shapechanging stunts.)

Just talk to your DM. There's no good way to convince all DMs about this - necropolitan is a powerful template in the right hands, particularly if you know what it's capable of (i.e. spellstitching to cast useful necromantic spells without XP/GP costs), but for a basic game it's not that much above, say, Dragonborn (the other "modify another race" template) or Warforged (a basic race that's also of a nonstandard, high-immunity type). It's probably a bit stronger than the Elan (another basic race that has a nonstandard type as its biggest advantage), but not by much, and largely due to having increased compatibility with other rules abilities.

Secondly, why the hell is it stated as LA0 instead of LA+1 if there is no way around this.

Level adjustments work differently than you seem to think.

If it were LA+1 instead of a level loss / XP cost, a level 3 character who became a necropolitan would be treated as level 4 for all purposes relating to XP, meaning that while he and his buddies may both have 3000xp, he will receive less XP for a given battle than his allies, and his allies will reach their next level after only 3000xp, while he would need to amass 7000xp to go up a level.

If it simply costs 1000xp and a level (via resurrection), then nothing changes. A level 3 character who becomes a necropolitan loses would fall somewhere to level 2 (I'm simplifying a bit, the details don't matter that much) and would thus gain more XP from battle than his allies until he reaches the same level as them (this is the same trick as the "one level gravy train" used to accelerate item creation). Once the levels even out, he will advance at exactly the same rate as his allies.

This matters most for spellcasters, whose power is tied most strongly to their actual level. You will find necropolitan spellcasters. You will almost never find useful bugbear spellcasters (four levels behind their buddies = true suckage).

Necropolitan is a bargain for what you get, especially if you get it early and do your homework.

laeresh

Feb 11, 2013 10:53:42

Thanks for all your help, I'll simply become a Necropolitan at 3th level and catch up from there.
Charisma of 20 and points in disguise will save my ass from the angry townfolk ^^

frost.fire

Feb 11, 2013 11:12:36

When in doubt hat of disguise is very handy :P

StevenO

Feb 11, 2013 13:21:11

When it comes to species I'd say bugbear are pretty bad. For a caster you should just forget about it. For a skill type character needing to start with a three HD in a skill poor "class" sucks. Now I guess it can almost work for a melee type as +4 STR can help make up for the attack loss thru Humanoid 3 and +1 LA and the +2 CON can eventually help make up for the lost HD and smaller humanoid dice.

As for the Necropolitian it may not seem like it give you a lot but like Tempest mentions it is a very good +0 LA for some types of characters. As he points out being down XP and a level is a LOT better then having to deal with LA; now some may say you can "buy off" a LA but I'd just point out that to do that will require giving up XP and basically "going down" a level which is what the Necropolitian does up front. Although there are some drawbacks to being undead (and dying a zero hp instead of -10 could be one) you gain a pile of immunities and as a templated undead you should be getting to use d12s for HD on all your levels.

Tempest_Stormwind

Feb 11, 2013 14:20:24

Although there are some drawbacks to being undead (and dying a zero hp instead of -10 could be one) you gain a pile of immunities and as a templated undead you should be getting to use d12s for HD on all your levels.

Elaborating a bit on this: d12 HD is 6.5 HP per level, and since you have a nonability Constitution you don't have an easy way of changing that (although the Improved Toughness feat will work). A cleric averages 4.5 HP per level before Constitution, so a cleric with 14 Constitution will have the same HP as a necropolitan (with -- constitution). Similarly, a rogue (3.5 HP/level) would need a 16 Constitution, while a wizard (2.5 HP/level) would need an 18 Constitution. The point-buy points you would normally spend on Constitution can be reallocated to your primary casting stat, making you a better spellcaster all around (i.e. assuming the standard 15/14/13/12/10/8 array, a wizard might put the 15 in Int and the 14 in Constitution, with the 13 likely going to Dexterity (the other three stats don't really matter to a wizard so we ignore them here). A necropolitan might put the 14 into Dexterity and shave the 13 down to an 8, putting the extra five points into Intelligence, raising it to 17. He'd put the 8 into Constitution, which will become a -- after he necropolitanizes himself).

There's a lot more to Constitution and your durability than raw hit points, though - the most obvious example is effects that rely on a Fortitude save. However, by virtue of his Undead type, a necropolitan is flat-out immune to all effects that have a Fortitude save unless they also affect objects (and while some of those are downright deadly, they're the minority). You're also immune to a laundry list of conditions which occasionally show up on such spells (for instance, if a spell says Fortitue Negates (object) it'd normally work on you, but if it has, say, the [Death] descriptor, you'd still be immune), which includes any spell with the Mind-Affecting descriptor (despite having a mind, you're immune to effects that influence it). Furthermore, a small handful of effects only work on Humanoids (the stereotypical example is Charm Person, but Reduce Person still counts), and since you're not a Humanoid (your type is Undead) you're also immune to those. You also get "hidden" immunity to some other effects - for instance, since you don't breathe (and are immune to most things that would require you to inhale them anyway), you can basically ignore gas effects or any water that isn't deep enough to deal pressure damage.

The immunities alone are well worth the price of admission to Necropolitan. The fact that you get more than that on top of the type is impressive, to say the least.

StevenO

Feb 11, 2013 15:43:59

Although there are some drawbacks to being undead (and dying a zero hp instead of -10 could be one) you gain a pile of immunities and as a templated undead you should be getting to use d12s for HD on all your levels.

Elaborating a bit on this: d12 HD is 6.5 HP per level, and since you have a nonability Constitution you don't have an easy way of changing that (although the Improved Toughness feat will work). A cleric averages 4.5 HP per level before Constitution, so a cleric with 14 Constitution will have the same HP as a necropolitan (with -- constitution). Similarly, a rogue (3.5 HP/level) would need a 16 Constitution, while a wizard (2.5 HP/level) would need an 18 Constitution. The point-buy points you would normally spend on Constitution can be reallocated to your primary casting stat, making you a better spellcaster all around (i.e. assuming the standard 15/14/13/12/10/8 array, a wizard might put the 15 in Int and the 14 in Constitution, with the 13 likely going to Dexterity (the other three stats don't really matter to a wizard so we ignore them here). A necropolitan might put the 14 into Dexterity and shave the 13 down to an 8, putting the extra five points into Intelligence, raising it to 17. He'd put the 8 into Constitution, which will become a -- after he necropolitanizes himself).
Show

There's a lot more to Constitution and your durability than raw hit points, though - the most obvious example is effects that rely on a Fortitude save. However, by virtue of his Undead type, a necropolitan is flat-out immune to all effects that have a Fortitude save unless they also affect objects (and while some of those are downright deadly, they're the minority). You're also immune to a laundry list of conditions which occasionally show up on such spells (for instance, if a spell says Fortitue Negates (object) it'd normally work on you, but if it has, say, the [Death] descriptor, you'd still be immune), which includes any spell with the Mind-Affecting descriptor (despite having a mind, you're immune to effects that influence it). Furthermore, a small handful of effects only work on Humanoids (the stereotypical example is Charm Person, but Reduce Person still counts), and since you're not a Humanoid (your type is Undead) you're also immune to those. You also get "hidden" immunity to some other effects - for instance, since you don't breathe (and are immune to most things that would require you to inhale them anyway), you can basically ignore gas effects or any water that isn't deep enough to deal pressure damage.

The immunities alone are well worth the price of admission to Necropolitan. The fact that you get more than that on top of the type is impressive, to say the least.