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Arcane Archavist?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
shadrach
Jan 01, 2009 23:44:15 Does there exist a class similar to the archivist, or the Erudite only in arcane spells? By that I mean able to learn *any* arcane spell, not just sorc/wizard?

Had an interesting little hiccup with gestalting. The Warlock, at lvl 12 can make magic items without knowing the appropriate spells. Give that man a scribe scroll feat and he can now make scrolls for spells he doesn't know. If his other half is archivist, he could then copy the spell he doesn't know into his spellbook, learning it. Nice.
#2
jenos
Jan 02, 2009 1:13:59 The erudite is capable of learning any arcane spell. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a feat spell to power lets you turn any arcane spell into a power learnable by erudites.
#3
jaronk
Jan 02, 2009 1:46:02 You can already do that Warlock thing with a regular Archivist. Remember, the entire Wizard/Sorc list and the entire Bard list all exists as divine spells anyway. The only things missing are a couple of Assassin and Hexblade spells, one Dread Necromancer spell (Greater Harm, and who cares about that one?), and IIRC a few Wu Jen spells. You can't get the Trapsmith spells at their super low levels. Everything else is fair game.

So... why not just go with the Archivist?

JaronK
#4
tos_shai_hulud
Jan 02, 2009 2:39:33 Perhaps I'm mistaken, but doesn't the warlock craft arcane scrolls? A warlock / wizard combination might be able to scribe every spell into his spellbook, but I don't understand how an archivist would do it.
#5
jenos
Jan 02, 2009 2:52:20 No, Imbue Item(SU) specificially states that it can be used to craft both arcane and divine spells, though the DC for emulating a divine spell is 10 higher than an arcane spell. So as long as your DM accepts that a divine version of glitterdust exists(Which it does, but some DM's may be resistant to that idea) a warlock can emulate it, albeit at a DC of 27.

Edit: I think I misread your question. The argument is that any arcane spell exists as a divine spell(And vice versa), so as long as you can scribe a divine spell(Which warlocks can, via imbue item) you can emulate having, say, divine draconic polymorph and then craft a scroll with that with a DC 30 UMD check.

Btw, Jaronk, why do you say that those spells don't exist? The geomancer ability Spell Versatility implies that any arcane spell has a divine equivalent, as long as that the original class list its on has second level spells(As second level arcane is all thats needed to enter geomancer and verstalitize those spells)
#6
tos_shai_hulud
Jan 02, 2009 3:35:15
SRD[/url]"]The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)

Emphasis added by me. The warlock is an arcane caster, so scrolls he makes, whether of arcane or divine spells, seem to be arcane. Is that the wrong interpretation?
#7
jenos
Jan 02, 2009 4:43:00 I would have to disagree with that, seeing as Imbue Item specifically mentions two different DC's for both divine AND arcane scrolls. That implies that a warlock can create both. He presumably emulates being a divine spellcaster, then uses imbue item to emulate having a divine spell(In this case, a divine version of an arcane spell) and crafts a scroll of that.
#8
tos_shai_hulud
Jan 02, 2009 4:56:59
I would have to disagree with that, seeing as Imbue Item specifically mentions two different DC's for both divine AND arcane scrolls. That implies that a warlock can create both. He presumably emulates being a divine spellcaster, then uses imbue item to emulate having a divine spell(In this case, a divine version of an arcane spell) and crafts a scroll of that.

Huh? I don't understand what you mean. He is an arcane caster. He has the ability to emulate divine spells. Arcane casters create arcane scrolls. But, when he emulates a divine spell, it is a divine version of an arcane spell? It is a divine spell to begin with. How does it become a divine version of an arcane spell?
#9
jenos
Jan 02, 2009 5:52:12 Because he emulates being a divine caster, by emulating a class feature. Since he can then cast divine spells(or so UMD allows us to think that) he emulates having a divine version of an arcane spell on his spell list, and scribes that.

Edit: He doesn't even need to do that - as an archivist, he can scribe divine scrolls. Imbue item is not limited to warlock items, he can simply scribe a divine scroll as an archivist, and then use Imbue Item to get whatever spell he wanted.

The way it becomes a divine version of an arcane spell is through the argument that there exists, for every arcane spell, a divine version of it. As any arcane spell can be converted to a divine spell through numerous means, it follows that it is possible for every arcane spell to be converted to a divine spell. Even though these arcane-to-divine spells do not exist in any class spell lists, they can be accessed through means of Imbue Item.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here, is it how can a Gestalt Archivist | Warlock craft divine scrolls, or how can a divine version of, say, Wings of Flurry exist?
#10
tos_shai_hulud
Jan 02, 2009 5:57:24 But the spell is divine, not arcane. I don't understand what you mean by a divine version of an arcane spell. It is your language that doesn't make sense. Here is my way of thinking. Let me know where I am missing what you are saying:

You have a divine spell.
The warlock is an arcane caster.
The warlock uses Imbue Item to emulate the divine spell (not via the normal emulate class feature use of Use Magic Device, as it specifically states that it cannot emulate caster level, but a special warlock-only ability).
Arcane casters make arcane scrolls.
The warlock's scroll is an arcane scroll.
The spell that he emulated was divine, however, now that the arcane warlock has made a scroll, it is an arcane version of a divine scroll.

Where are we diverging on this logic?
#11
pithica
Jan 02, 2009 9:03:23 You're diverging at step 4. He is reading that class ability as allowing him to mimic being a divine caster casting a divine spell, therefore being able to create divine scrolls.

I have no idea if he's correct, having never played a warlock, and only having built a few. But the way I'm reading his explanation, the above is the gist of what he's saying.

Reading the text, I'd say he's correct. He's substituting UMD for casting a spell, the same way an Artificer does. If the check succeeds, it's as if the spell was cast (even if he doesn't know or can't cast). Since we have another president in the Artificer class for being able to create divine or arcane scrolls this way, I'd say that this ability works as he described it, as the ability that allows him to do so is an Su, and therefore neither arcane nor divine (same as Artificer magic). Otherwise, if he made, for example, a Staff of Healing, only an arcane caster with Arcane Disciple-Healing would be able to use it, and that just doesn't make any sense to me.
#12
jaronk
Jan 02, 2009 13:21:48 Warlocks do indeed make divine versions of a given divine spell, so long as that spell exists. You simply have to prove that it exists. I'm not so sure about the Geomancer thing... they let you treat various aspects of the spell as though it were divine, without actually saying "this spell exists as a purely divine spell." That's as opposed to, for example, the Dragon Magic Varient Favored Soul, which specifically says you get a Wiz/Sorc spell as a divine spell.

JaronK
#13
jenos
Jan 02, 2009 13:31:39 Yes, the argument is that you can pretend being a divine caster - but that argument is for straight warlocks. In this case, as a gestalt archivist/warlock, there should be no contention at all, as an archivist can scribe divine scrolls, and can thus scribe divine arcane-to-divine spell scrolls.

Jaron, you don't even need spell versatility. Southern Magician also implies this - again, need 2nd level spells to take the feat, but it says you can "cast a divine spell as an arcane spell, or vice versa". That should create the existence of arcane-to-divine spells.

Since the whole issue here is crafting a suitable argument for your DM to buy that a warlock can scribe any scroll he wants, it is possible for him not to buy that(along the same way a DM saying southern magician doesn't allow early entry into theurgic classes).
#14
jaronk
Jan 02, 2009 13:37:50 Again, that's "cast as." You don't actually have a divine spell... you have an arcane spell that's "treated as" a divine spell for casting only. That's the tricky part. What you need is an actual divine spell. So I'm not sure I like that method.

JaronK
#15
pithica
Jan 02, 2009 13:45:34 Even if you can't use it for every sorceror/wiz/bard/assassin spell, you can use it for every ranger/blackguard/pally/druid/adept/cleric/domain spell (and any other divine casting class I missed) for Archivist purposes. Since, in my experience, the only 'tough' part of playing an archivist is finding a source of divine scrolls for your prayerbook, that's a pretty beefy benefit on it's own, as far as I'm concerned.
#16
jaronk
Jan 02, 2009 14:03:11 Except that research covers that nicely, if you have time. Check the research rules in the PHB... you'll notice that duplicating any existing spell always succeeds (it's creating new spells that requires DM intervention, and note that making a divine version of an arcane spell would be a new spell). So, that's already okay, and there are plenty of classes that do give the Wizard/Sorc list in various forms (domain lists, Dragon Magic Favored Soul varient, Divine Magician).

It's just a few specific spells that are questionable.

JaronK
#17
pithica
Jan 02, 2009 14:28:33 Yeah, our group house-ruled research (to add time/cost) to prevent abuse when 3.5 started, I usually don't get the down-time as a PC. Even if I did, we also specifically house-ruled archivists to only be able to research straight cleric spells (the same spells they can auto-get at each level), just like a wizard can only research wizard spells.

It's a good idea though, as neither of those are (I think) common house-rules (and this isn't the board to discuss them anyway).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shadrach Jan 01, 2009 23:44:15	Does there exist a class similar to the archivist, or the Erudite only in arcane spells? By that I mean able to learn any arcane spell, not just sorc/wizard? Had an interesting little hiccup with gestalting. The Warlock, at lvl 12 can make magic items without knowing the appropriate spells. Give that man a scribe scroll feat and he can now make scrolls for spells he doesn't know. If his other half is archivist, he could then copy the spell he doesn't know into his spellbook, learning it. Nice.
#2 jenos Jan 02, 2009 1:13:59	The erudite is capable of learning any arcane spell. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a feat spell to power lets you turn any arcane spell into a power learnable by erudites.
#3 jaronk Jan 02, 2009 1:46:02	You can already do that Warlock thing with a regular Archivist. Remember, the entire Wizard/Sorc list and the entire Bard list all exists as divine spells anyway. The only things missing are a couple of Assassin and Hexblade spells, one Dread Necromancer spell (Greater Harm, and who cares about that one?), and IIRC a few Wu Jen spells. You can't get the Trapsmith spells at their super low levels. Everything else is fair game. So... why not just go with the Archivist? JaronK
#4 tos_shai_hulud Jan 02, 2009 2:39:33	Perhaps I'm mistaken, but doesn't the warlock craft arcane scrolls? A warlock / wizard combination might be able to scribe every spell into his spellbook, but I don't understand how an archivist would do it.
#5 jenos Jan 02, 2009 2:52:20	No, Imbue Item(SU) specificially states that it can be used to craft both arcane and divine spells, though the DC for emulating a divine spell is 10 higher than an arcane spell. So as long as your DM accepts that a divine version of glitterdust exists(Which it does, but some DM's may be resistant to that idea) a warlock can emulate it, albeit at a DC of 27. Edit: I think I misread your question. The argument is that any arcane spell exists as a divine spell(And vice versa), so as long as you can scribe a divine spell(Which warlocks can, via imbue item) you can emulate having, say, divine draconic polymorph and then craft a scroll with that with a DC 30 UMD check. Btw, Jaronk, why do you say that those spells don't exist? The geomancer ability Spell Versatility implies that any arcane spell has a divine equivalent, as long as that the original class list its on has second level spells(As second level arcane is all thats needed to enter geomancer and verstalitize those spells)
#6 tos_shai_hulud Jan 02, 2009 3:35:15	SRD[/url]"]The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) Emphasis added by me. The warlock is an arcane caster, so scrolls he makes, whether of arcane or divine spells, seem to be arcane. Is that the wrong interpretation?
#7 jenos Jan 02, 2009 4:43:00	I would have to disagree with that, seeing as Imbue Item specifically mentions two different DC's for both divine AND arcane scrolls. That implies that a warlock can create both. He presumably emulates being a divine spellcaster, then uses imbue item to emulate having a divine spell(In this case, a divine version of an arcane spell) and crafts a scroll of that.
#8 tos_shai_hulud Jan 02, 2009 4:56:59	I would have to disagree with that, seeing as Imbue Item specifically mentions two different DC's for both divine AND arcane scrolls. That implies that a warlock can create both. He presumably emulates being a divine spellcaster, then uses imbue item to emulate having a divine spell(In this case, a divine version of an arcane spell) and crafts a scroll of that. Huh? I don't understand what you mean. He is an arcane caster. He has the ability to emulate divine spells. Arcane casters create arcane scrolls. But, when he emulates a divine spell, it is a divine version of an arcane spell? It is a divine spell to begin with. How does it become a divine version of an arcane spell?
#9 jenos Jan 02, 2009 5:52:12	Because he emulates being a divine caster, by emulating a class feature. Since he can then cast divine spells(or so UMD allows us to think that) he emulates having a divine version of an arcane spell on his spell list, and scribes that. Edit: He doesn't even need to do that - as an archivist, he can scribe divine scrolls. Imbue item is not limited to warlock items, he can simply scribe a divine scroll as an archivist, and then use Imbue Item to get whatever spell he wanted. The way it becomes a divine version of an arcane spell is through the argument that there exists, for every arcane spell, a divine version of it. As any arcane spell can be converted to a divine spell through numerous means, it follows that it is possible for every arcane spell to be converted to a divine spell. Even though these arcane-to-divine spells do not exist in any class spell lists, they can be accessed through means of Imbue Item. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here, is it how can a Gestalt Archivist \| Warlock craft divine scrolls, or how can a divine version of, say, Wings of Flurry exist?
#10 tos_shai_hulud Jan 02, 2009 5:57:24	But the spell is divine, not arcane. I don't understand what you mean by a divine version of an arcane spell. It is your language that doesn't make sense. Here is my way of thinking. Let me know where I am missing what you are saying: You have a divine spell. The warlock is an arcane caster. The warlock uses Imbue Item to emulate the divine spell (not via the normal emulate class feature use of Use Magic Device, as it specifically states that it cannot emulate caster level, but a special warlock-only ability). Arcane casters make arcane scrolls. The warlock's scroll is an arcane scroll. The spell that he emulated was divine, however, now that the arcane warlock has made a scroll, it is an arcane version of a divine scroll. Where are we diverging on this logic?
#11 pithica Jan 02, 2009 9:03:23	You're diverging at step 4. He is reading that class ability as allowing him to mimic being a divine caster casting a divine spell, therefore being able to create divine scrolls. I have no idea if he's correct, having never played a warlock, and only having built a few. But the way I'm reading his explanation, the above is the gist of what he's saying. Reading the text, I'd say he's correct. He's substituting UMD for casting a spell, the same way an Artificer does. If the check succeeds, it's as if the spell was cast (even if he doesn't know or can't cast). Since we have another president in the Artificer class for being able to create divine or arcane scrolls this way, I'd say that this ability works as he described it, as the ability that allows him to do so is an Su, and therefore neither arcane nor divine (same as Artificer magic). Otherwise, if he made, for example, a Staff of Healing, only an arcane caster with Arcane Disciple-Healing would be able to use it, and that just doesn't make any sense to me.
#12 jaronk Jan 02, 2009 13:21:48	Warlocks do indeed make divine versions of a given divine spell, so long as that spell exists. You simply have to prove that it exists. I'm not so sure about the Geomancer thing... they let you treat various aspects of the spell as though it were divine, without actually saying "this spell exists as a purely divine spell." That's as opposed to, for example, the Dragon Magic Varient Favored Soul, which specifically says you get a Wiz/Sorc spell as a divine spell. JaronK
#13 jenos Jan 02, 2009 13:31:39	Yes, the argument is that you can pretend being a divine caster - but that argument is for straight warlocks. In this case, as a gestalt archivist/warlock, there should be no contention at all, as an archivist can scribe divine scrolls, and can thus scribe divine arcane-to-divine spell scrolls. Jaron, you don't even need spell versatility. Southern Magician also implies this - again, need 2nd level spells to take the feat, but it says you can "cast a divine spell as an arcane spell, or vice versa". That should create the existence of arcane-to-divine spells. Since the whole issue here is crafting a suitable argument for your DM to buy that a warlock can scribe any scroll he wants, it is possible for him not to buy that(along the same way a DM saying southern magician doesn't allow early entry into theurgic classes).
#14 jaronk Jan 02, 2009 13:37:50	Again, that's "cast as." You don't actually have a divine spell... you have an arcane spell that's "treated as" a divine spell for casting only. That's the tricky part. What you need is an actual divine spell. So I'm not sure I like that method. JaronK
#15 pithica Jan 02, 2009 13:45:34	Even if you can't use it for every sorceror/wiz/bard/assassin spell, you can use it for every ranger/blackguard/pally/druid/adept/cleric/domain spell (and any other divine casting class I missed) for Archivist purposes. Since, in my experience, the only 'tough' part of playing an archivist is finding a source of divine scrolls for your prayerbook, that's a pretty beefy benefit on it's own, as far as I'm concerned.
#16 jaronk Jan 02, 2009 14:03:11	Except that research covers that nicely, if you have time. Check the research rules in the PHB... you'll notice that duplicating any existing spell always succeeds (it's creating new spells that requires DM intervention, and note that making a divine version of an arcane spell would be a new spell). So, that's already okay, and there are plenty of classes that do give the Wizard/Sorc list in various forms (domain lists, Dragon Magic Favored Soul varient, Divine Magician). It's just a few specific spells that are questionable. JaronK
#17 pithica Jan 02, 2009 14:28:33	Yeah, our group house-ruled research (to add time/cost) to prevent abuse when 3.5 started, I usually don't get the down-time as a PC. Even if I did, we also specifically house-ruled archivists to only be able to research straight cleric spells (the same spells they can auto-get at each level), just like a wizard can only research wizard spells. It's a good idea though, as neither of those are (I think) common house-rules (and this isn't the board to discuss them anyway).