Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zexionalmasy Apr 07, 2008 8:38:57	I need some help tweaking my build as well as how it should progress after a bit. The game hasn't started yet so if you already see some fat in the build just tell me where to cut. This is a 3.5 game and all books of 3.5 are allowed. I am not sure is Dragon mag is always allowed so I don't really wanna touch on those if I can help it. Starting level is 11. Human LN (35 pt buy) STR 14 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 11 CHA 16 +2(lv 4, lv 8) = 18 Current Build Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/Enlightened Fist 2/Sand Shaper 1/Abjurant Champion 2/ Enlightened Fist 3 SL: Sorcerer 8 The purpose of this build is based off of touch based spells and the ranged touch is not that bad of a rate as well. Sand Shaper was added in at the cost of a CL to give a much larger spell list which holds a lot of buffs which are sorely needed. Abjurant was added to increase spell's DV as well as quick two spells which together add on 10AC, can't pass that up when it gives also full BAB and full caster level advancement. My current spell list for sorcerer is: Spells 1st:5 Chill Touch/Ray of Enfeeblement/shock grasp/mage armor/shield 2ed:3 Scorching Ray/Touch of Idiocy/glitterdust 3rd:2 shiver/displacement 4th:1 enervation Thanks for your help.
#2 zexionalmasy Apr 09, 2008 8:22:39	What feats would be good other then the needed Ascetic Mage and Combat Casting? Should they be like the favored Practiced Spellcaster and a metamagic or should to go with two physical combat feats?
#3 sinfire_titan Apr 09, 2008 8:29:36	You seriously need Ascetic Mage and Practiced Spellcaster in there. You are giving up 4 CLs for very little, which is bad. Really bad. If you can, drop Sandshaper. Play a Wizard with Kung-fu Genius (Dragon Magazine 319) to reduce MAD. That way, you just need to get at least 17th level of Wizard casting in order to get 9th level spells, which gives you some leeway.
#4 chibishuffle Apr 09, 2008 8:45:24	sinfire beat me to it Kung fu genius in dragon compendium or camadeine monk from champions of valor. I'd also grab practiced spellcaster and perhaps arcane strike.
#5 zexionalmasy Apr 09, 2008 8:46:42	I though a sorcerer would of been better. So spontaneous isn't that much better the prepped even in a touch build like this?If I drop shaper I might up monk by one for two more combat feats and basically keep same spell level, is that a good idea?
#6 sinfire_titan Apr 09, 2008 8:55:26	I though a sorcerer would of been better. So spontaneous isn't that much better the prepped even in a touch build like this?If I drop shaper I might up monk by one for two more combat feats and basically keep same spell level, is that a good idea? Less Monk levels for higher level spells. Anything that class gives you is usually easily replicated.
#7 phaxi Apr 09, 2008 9:00:27	where is wraithstrike? I suppose you mean Shivering touch with "shiver", otherwise you'd want that too.
#8 zexionalmasy Apr 09, 2008 9:06:17	Monk 1/Wizard 4/Enlightened Fist 3/Abjurant Champion 3/ I think champ's 4th level is a super arcane strike, right? I don't have a book open right now.
#9 sinfire_titan Apr 09, 2008 9:09:22	Monk 1/Wizard 4/Enlightened Fist 3/Abjurant Champion 3/ I think champ's 4th level is a super arcane strike, right? I don't have a book open right now. Not sure myself. I am AFB right now. But that does look solid. If you can squeeze it in, maybe Jade Phoenix Mage for maneuvers? Perhaps not, but after AC, what other PrCs are there? EF has multiclassing restrictions IIRC. And I know Monk does. Wizard isn't high enough in BAB for this kind of build. It is either JPM or Eldritch Knight/Spellsword. You don't want to lose any more caster levels either.
#10 zexionalmasy Apr 09, 2008 9:36:08	After Champ that would be 20. The final might not be that useful but it increases mage armor and shield ac by one for +2 AC, if you know similar spells for me to use?
#11 sinfire_titan Apr 09, 2008 9:43:55	After Champ that would be 20. The final might not be that useful but it increases mage armor and shield ac by one for +2 AC, if you know similar spells for me to use? Abjurant Champion is only 5 levels long. The build you posted above is a total ECL of 13th after finishing AC. And it only increases Abjuration spells AC bonuses. It does jack for Mage Armor (Conjuration). Luminous Armor (BoED) is fair play though. Well, maybe not fair... So that leaves 7 full levels open for you to work with. JPM 4+Spellsword 1 and then any full Spellcasting advancement classes (or more Wizard levels) will work.
#12 the_shaman Apr 09, 2008 10:31:03	where is wraithstrike? I suppose you mean Shivering touch with "shiver", otherwise you'd want that too. Wraithstrike appeared in CArc, I believe, but was reprinted/edited in the SPC. Sorcerer isn't necessarily bad, but the MAD is hard, even with Ascetic Mage. I'd say it is about equal with wizard, maybe a tad worse than specialist wizard, for your concept. Sand Shaper is ok, but you're already getting poor BAB. How about getting a Bloodline from the Dragon compendium for the extra spells instead - or alongside - of it?
#13 zexionalmasy Apr 09, 2008 10:59:49	Abjurant Champion is only 5 levels long. The build you posted above is a total ECL of 13th after finishing AC. And it only increases Abjuration spells AC bonuses. It does jack for Mage Armor (Conjuration). Luminous Armor (BoED) is fair play though. Well, maybe not fair... So that leaves 7 full levels open for you to work with. JPM 4+Spellsword 1 and then any full Spellcasting advancement classes (or more Wizard levels) will work. if that does jack then why does it name it? Also I will finish off enlightened fists levels being a total ECL 17. how does JPM help with touch based spells anyways? Spellsword is only good if you want to wear armor, if you wear armor you lose monk AC bonus so.. why bother?
#14 indeterminate Apr 09, 2008 11:06:07	if that does jack then why does it name it? Because the book was poorly edited? The ability specifically says abjuration spells that provide an armor or shield bonus. Mage Armor and it's greater version are conjuration spells and thus by RAW aren't increased by the ability.
#15 zexionalmasy Apr 09, 2008 13:53:59	Because the book was poorly edited? The ability specifically says abjuration spells that provide an armor or shield bonus. Mage Armor and it's greater version are conjuration spells and thus by RAW aren't increased by the ability. I see now it was even noted in the errata.. Would 'Protection From X (PHB)' count for the bonus of +5? into total +7AC from the spell
#16 sinfire_titan Apr 09, 2008 14:10:26	I see now it was even noted in the errata.. Would 'Protection From X (PHB)' count for the bonus of +5? into total +7AC from the spell No. Deflection. Not armor or shield bonus, so it won't get the increase.
#17 zexionalmasy Apr 09, 2008 15:54:39	Oh well, where can I find JPM and how would it help?
#18 sinfire_titan Apr 09, 2008 16:09:06	Oh well, where can I find JPM and how would it help? Tome of Battle. Gives you more options, and is full BAB with a minor hit to CL. Easiest entry is the cost of three feats, or an item and one feat (but you lose all of the PrC's benefits if you stop wearing the item).
#19 zexionalmasy Apr 09, 2008 19:11:20	Tome of Battle. Gives you more options, and is full BAB with a minor hit to CL. Easiest entry is the cost of three feats, or an item and one feat (but you lose all of the PrC's benefits if you stop wearing the item). The reason I chose Enlightened Fist is because it managed to turn rays into touch.
#20 operation_shoestring Apr 09, 2008 19:40:16	I think champ's 4th level is a super arcane strike, right? I don't have a book open right now. No, it's weaker than arcane strike. The super arcane strike is the JPM's 4th level ability.
#21 rabidpirateman Apr 09, 2008 20:29:30	The reason I chose Enlightened Fist is because it managed to turn rays into touch. Its a trap. Touch spells are cool, but ray spells are good for their range. The only reason to go Enlightened Fist is either for the three level dip or the Wings of Flurry spell, since it negates saves. I personally think Swiftblade would do well. Monk 1/Sorc 4/EnFist 3/Swiftblade 6 gives you nice goodies.
#22 zarzak Apr 09, 2008 23:20:41	for abjurant champion, don't forget about Greater Luminous Armor (Book of Exalted Deeds) - you'd need to be a wizard base to use it though.
#23 zexionalmasy Apr 11, 2008 17:03:36	Its a trap. Touch spells are cool, but ray spells are good for their range. The only reason to go Enlightened Fist is either for the three level dip or the Wings of Flurry spell, since it negates saves. I personally think Swiftblade would do well. Monk 1/Sorc 4/EnFist 3/Swiftblade 6 gives you nice goodies. ..that kinda kills a lot of spell levels
#24 zexionalmasy Apr 11, 2008 17:05:16	Tome of Battle. Gives you more options, and is full BAB with a minor hit to CL. Easiest entry is the cost of three feats, or an item and one feat (but you lose all of the PrC's benefits if you stop wearing the item). Know of a better spell caster way? I wanted to keep or try to keep like 8th level spells, if i lose any more i think I lose 8th if i chose wiz i lose 9th but might keep 8th.
#25 sinfire_titan Apr 11, 2008 17:38:04	Know of a better spell caster way? I wanted to keep or try to keep like 8th level spells, if i lose any more i think I lose 8th if i chose wiz i lose 9th but might keep 8th. 1st 4 levels of the class gets 3 +1 to Arcane Casting Class, so you are actually losing very little. As is, you would be casting as a 17th level Wizard, but just barely.
#26 zexionalmasy Apr 11, 2008 23:51:31	1st 4 levels of the class gets 3 +1 to Arcane Casting Class, so you are actually losing very little. As is, you would be casting as a 17th level Wizard, but just barely. Umm what level config are you thinking about. The mixing is getting a little confusing sorry.