This thread will first try to gain consensus on the rules. Once this is done, then the competition can start.
Proposed rules for building a competing character.
CO, not TO.
25 point buy.
Only the following single classed characters of the following classes are allowed (Cleric, Fighter) -- this means, no PrCs but alternate class features (cloistered cleric, dungeon crasher) allowed.
All WoTC books allowed, no Dragon Magazine.
Any web enhancements allowed.
No 3.0 stuff allowed unless it was updated to 3.5 (iatsu focus, i am looking at you).
No LA+ races allowed.
Level 14. WBL enforced (i.e. no item familar or "cow to gold" spells to circumvent WBL).
No minions allowed (no leadership, no hiring, no buying pearls of wisdom to have the 20th level wizard cast GMW on the fighter's bow).
No flaws.
All questionable rulings to err on the side of an organic character (i.e., MIC says you cannot buy relics, but, it makes sense for a devout character who wants them to acquire them, might not have them at lowest character level usable though.)
Although a nova strategy can be used, it will be considered poor form (using Oil of GMW instead of buying a bow -- a cleric casting GMW on his own bow is expected and encouraged).
DMM is CO, not TO.
Posting:
You need to post a full character ... this means things like race, class, variants used, equipment, skills, feats, spells known/active, etc.
Character life ... this character must be able to be considered an archer his entire career. Does not have to be GOOD, but has to be able to be played as an archer.
Scoring (things to consider -- more to come as people think of them).
5 points 1st place
3 points 2nd place
1 point 3rd Place
Farthest Shot (i.e longest range increment)
Most damage per shot
Most amount of damage per round at various ACs (average damage * (hit chance per attack))
Most accurate (highest total attack modifier)
Stamina.... how long can Peak performance be sustained.... (ammunition is considered to be infinite)
Unbuffed Performance ..... if Surprised or when Buffs(short duration spells or abilities) are dispelled(Antimagic Field/Dispelling Screen,etc...)... what is the combat ability
Goal: The goal is to see how the two classes compare to each other in the archer role. As such, please keep things civil -- mistakes will be made. Please assume that they are unintentional.
[EDIT] updating post based on other posters input.
Goal: The goal is to see how the two classes compare to each other in the archer role. As such, please keep things civil -- mistakes will be make. Please assume that they are unintentional.
Was this intentional? If so, you got me...
For the rest, it all sound good and reasonable.
Edit: Oh yes, what FR books are considered 3.5?
Maybe it's a "stupid" question, but I'm not sure what CO & TO mean, sry.
For the rest, it all sound good and reasonable.
Character Optimization and Theoretical Optimization.
Is "Archer" exclusively referring to bows, or are crossbows allowed too?
Thx Tshern
Is "Archer" exclusively referring to bows, or are crossbows allowed too?
As far as I know, crossbows are allowed. Not sure why would you use one.
As far as I know, crossbows are allowed. Not sure why would you use one.
You use a crossbow to take advantage of possible readings of weapon aptitude with the warblade with the mace feat ...
Character Optimization and Theoretical Optimization.
CO = Character Optimization ... is a barbarian with leap attack/shock trooper ...
TO = Theoretical Optimization ... is "Wall of iron + fabricate = lots of money" or "I shapechange into a (insert creature here) gaining spellcasting abilities ...
CO is the stuff that sees play
TO is the stuff that doesnt see play.
Maybe it's a "stupid" question, but I'm not sure what CO & TO mean, sry.
For the rest, it all sound good and reasonable.
Edit: Oh yes, what FR books are considered 3.5?
Any FR books that say 3.5 on their cover (or say 3.5 compatible/etc).
This got on fast!
Was this intentional? If so, you got me...
Naw, wish I could take credit .. stupid thinking faster than I type ...
You use a crossbow to take advantage of possible readings of weapon aptitude with the warblade with the mace feat ...
Feat and money intensive though. Especially since you'd probably need four hands to make it worth your while.
5 points 1st place
3 points 2nd place
1 point 3rd Place
Scoring Comparison for each category:
Farthest Shot (i.e longest range increment ... submitted from All entries)
Most damage per shot(... submitted from All entries)
Most amount of damage per round at various ACs (average damage * (hit chance per attack)... submitted from All entries)
Most accurate (highest total attack modifier... submitted from All entries)
this means the scores will change with more entries ... and although it will mean more Work, it will better represent the outcome for each build
Additional Categories could include:
Stamina.... how long can Peak performance be sustained....
Unbuffed Performance ..... if Surprised or when Buffs(short duration spells or abilities) are dispelled(Antimagic Field/Dispelling Screen,etc...)... what is the combat ability
Character life ... this character must be able to be considered an archer his entire career.... this is not a Scoring Category, but a Requirement for submission.
:D
Also, we established scoring for this a while back, and it included the other things archers needed to be able to do, such as spot enemies at long distance (without that the range of your arrows hardly matters), ability to avoid combat or otherwise be able to keep firing, etc. For example, if a Cleric persists Arrow Storm, what does that do with your scoring system? Does the fact that a Cleric can actually see from miles out (thank you, Chain of Eyes) and can shoot at that distance without penalty (Guided Shot) mean anything in your scoring system? It certainly matters for a good archer. If a Cleric gets Minor Creation on his spell list and uses it to poison all his shots with Black Lotus poison, does that get ignored?
Also, why must the character be an archer his whole career? Clerics don't tend to fully bloom as archers until they get Divine Power, so hamstringing them on that point for a level 14 comparison seems a bit bizarre. Not all level 14 characters actually played up from level 1... in fact, most did not.
JaronK
Unfortunately, the CO/TO difference can be a little shakey sometimes. Some people think Aptitude Crossbows + Hand Crossbow Mastery + Lightning Mace is TO, others do not. Some think Divine Metamagic never sees play, others do not.
So, post your framework (warblade+lightning mace), and if people agree that it is CO then go ahead ...
I know that you and I agree that Divine Metamagic is at best CO -- and since we each would be using the opposite class, I think that means we have consensus.
Also, we established scoring for this a while back, and it included the other things archers needed to be able to do, such as spot enemies at long distance (without that the range of your arrows hardly matters), ability to avoid combat or otherwise be able to keep firing, etc. For example, if a Cleric persists Arrow Storm, what does that do with your scoring system? Does the fact that a Cleric can actually see from miles out (thank you, Chain of Eyes) and can shoot at that distance without penalty (Guided Shot) mean anything in your scoring system? It certainly matters for a good archer. If a Cleric gets Minor Creation on his spell list and uses it to poison all his shots with Black Lotus poison, does that get ignored?
Can you repost the scoring? I know that towards the end, there was proposed scoring that I had disagreed with. Then we can try to agree on that.
The cleric could not be using chain of eyes in this competition (no minions/etc) as there is no one to cast it on. Using guided shot might give the distance one to the cleric though ...
re: black lotus poison: this would not get ignored, unsure how it would be handled -- at the very least, it would generate cool points.
Also, why must the character be an archer his whole career? Clerics don't tend to fully bloom as archers until they get Divine Power, so hamstringing them on that point for a level 14 comparison seems a bit bizarre. Not all level 14 characters actually played up from level 1... in fact, most did not.
The cleric i think i remember you posting, could have been an archer his entire career ... DMM bless/etc helps make up for the BAB/etc ... then when you hit divine might, you take on off.
Are flaws allowed? If so, how many, two?
No flaws, as the entire class features of the fighter is feats ...
Giving away (effectively) either 2 or 4 levels of class features of the fighter reduces the effectiveness of the fighter by comparison.
I have no objection with traits -- but if I remember from the last competition, they were frowned upon ... so ... whatever you guys want.
What about retraining (PHB2) or Chaos Shuffle for feat exchange?
Is chaos shuffle the one where you (effectively) trade away thing like armor proficiencies/weapon proficiencies for extra feats using 2 different spells?
Isn't this normally considered TO?
Since we are building at level 14, what retraining would you need?
Unfortunately, the CO/TO difference can be a little shakey sometimes. Some people think Aptitude Crossbows + Hand Crossbow Mastery + Lightning Mace is TO, others do not. Some think Divine Metamagic never sees play, others do not.
I don't think people believe DMM never sees play, they just consider it cheesy. After all, there are plenty of practical build help requests here that use DMM. And, just to punk the myth again, I have used it a few times and a player in my game uses it right now.
Is chaos shuffle the one where you (effectively) trade away thing like armor proficiencies/weapon proficiencies for extra feats using 2 different spells?
Isn't this normally considered TO?
Since we are building at level 14, what retraining would you need?
Yes it is, but I didn't want to trade those things that are hardly discussed beeing legal or not. I thought about the "weapon focus" gained from the war domain or maybe other bonus feats.
Giving away (effectively) either 2 or 4 levels of class features of the fighter reduces the effectiveness of the fighter by comparison."
Is appropriate. Yes, it reduces their effectiveness... yet flaws are pretty darn commonly used. I mean, I don't have a huge sample size, but I'm in four campaigns right now, and half of them have flaws. Saying we're not allowing something that's common just because it makes Fighters weak makes it pretty clear where your biases are, you know?
Also, why aren't we allowing Chain of Eyes? Even without having specific minions ala Planar Ally, every Cleric is going to have someone on his side (his party mates). No matter who that is, one of them can have Chain of Eyes in play.
It seems like you're trying to set this up in a way that's as advantageous as possible for someone who can only shoot, removing all the stuff that applies in real games (the need to locate enemies before firing, ability to use party mates, etc). I mean, I can understand not letting other party mates buff you, but removing Chain of Eyes? Really?
JaronK
i dont have a problem not allowing it... you could make a note on your character build, that it would be useful to include in a real game... but it gets no mention for comparison here
:D
Another question: How does your cleric cast Arrow Storm? It is a ranger-only spell.
JaronK
PrC Ranger grants you all Ranger only spells. Very handy.
JaronK
Just because the PrC exists?
this comparison has the restraint of: Only Fighter vs Cleric.... with no PrCs.... thus Arrow Storm is not available to a Cleric 14, unless you use Extra Spell to gain access to it
Arrow Mind is available by means of Anyspell
:D
Just because the PrC exists?
No, because the PrC says you get them.
But the problem with comparisons like this is that they have little or nothing to do with real play. At this point we're saying no multiclassing, the character must function entirely within a vacuum assuming totally solo play, we don't even care about spotting distance, etc. And from previous challenges, I'm assuming doing things like calling critters to aid you and thus putting even more arrows downrange is also not allowed, plus no flaws simply because they make Fighters look bad. What's the point? If we have to stack the deck like this to make Fighters look good, haven't we just said we've given up? I can understand some basic rules, but come on.
JaronK
No, because the PrC says you get them.
But the problem with comparisons like this is that they have little or nothing to do with real play. At this point we're saying no multiclassing, the character must function entirely within a vacuum assuming totally solo play, we don't even care about spotting distance, etc. And from previous challenges, I'm assuming doing things like calling critters to aid you and thus putting even more arrows downrange is also not allowed, plus no flaws simply because they make Fighters look bad. What's the point? If we have to stack the deck like this to make Fighters look good, haven't we just said we've given up? I can understand some basic rules, but come on.
JaronK
The denial of multiclassing is because this is a fighter vs cleric comparison. How could we compare fighter to cleric if we are actually comparing:
Fighter2/barbarian2/ranger2/Pious Templar 1/Warblade2/Feat Rogue2 etc to Cloistered Cleric 5: Ranger PrC 3: Sacred Exorcist 6 -- Not saying that those are the builds, just pointing out where it leads to ... Remember, this is not a "Create the best archer build" but "Compare Cleric to Fighter"
The lack of outside support is to show how the character on its own works. Would you appreciate my build having a few pearls of power -- and stating "The Wizard casts GMW, The Duid casts Bite of the X, The hired NPC casts Polymorph other" - at this point in time, there is no relation from the original stats to the finished stats. Alternately, saying "I spend my gold on hiring war trolls therefore I am the best archer" is also rediculous.
Re: Spotting distance -- I asked for scoring categories, you are mentioning this one -- so we will add it. It was not ignored, it was neglected.
Yes, calling creatures to shoot arrows is not allowed, as per previous challenges ... any scoring that results in a character winning WHILE ASLEEP is flawed.
Yes, no flaws because the feats they give are the fighter's class features ... however, if you would like, we can post two copies of our build, one with flaws -- and one without ... and only compare one to the other. Per your metrics, half the campaigns you play in do not use flaws -- so it seems equally logical to exclude them, than include them.
Based on these explanations here ... do you still think I am stacking the deck? If so, please post how you would like to run/score this ... as this first post is just to try to agree on ground rules.