Edit** Nevermind got em.
Good suggestions, next?
Summon Elemental [reserve] is nice to have. By summoning feats, I meant Greenbound Summoning, Rashemi Elemental Summoning, etc. I mean you do have Invisibility off of the Trickery domain. My archivist finds it amusing to go first (he has Improved Initiative and high Dex), drop Invisibility and Dark Knowledge, and start summoning next round.
Corpsecrafter is decent if you like undead. Undead Leadership is more favorable than Leadership if you have low Charisma.
There is the Holt Warden + Contemplative strategy for Anyspell silliness. Making various Anyspelled things persistent might be playable.
Archivists summon so well, Malconvoker is an option.
Someone was kicking around a Southern Magician Archivist awhile ago. He used Incantatrix to advance it. I bet that was imposing over the table.
I'm not allowed to use things that good with the DM I like to play with, so I limited myself to a simple, efficient Archivist 15/Thaumaturgist 5. Note that the appropriate Spell Focus is from the 10th level bonus feat. After I have Dread Secret, I'll go right into Thaumaturgist and finish the class off.
A few of my playes wine about being gimped of Domains, but there's always a way around that. ;)
+1 to Malconvoker
IMHO, going straight archivist for awhile (10~14 or so?) isn't a bad idea.
Also, sources please =) Im relatively new to all the options, as I havent had time to sift through the billions of splat books.
now you have every divine spell in the game.
But seriously, Archivist is a class you've got to be careful with. Before making the character, check with the DM for EXACTLY what sources will be allowed and what kind of access you will have to them. Divine Bard is a perfect example of this. Can you just go to a scroll shop in a major city, or even a planar metropolis, and buy a scroll off of the Divine Bard list? How about rare, funky domains, like Slime? Is Shugenja open, will you have to make a trek to a specific world for those spells?
There are DMs out there who won't even grant easy access to Druid spells. Seriously, you need to know this stuff before you even start. It is the single biggest issue you'll ever face as an Archivist. If the spell selection gets too restrictive you'll be better off as a Cloistered Cleric.
I love the idea of an archivist, being able to cast all those spells, even arcane ones as divine spells, but Im having a bad feeling it's going to end up just being a slightly changed cleric. Im not entirely sure how my DM will allow me to find scrolls. It could be a PITA.
Would I be better off just going with a psion?
I like having an answer to everything. A spell for every situation. I know the psion wont, but at least he would have the spells he could cast and I wouldn't have to look all over the place for them.
So, if I wanted to have an answer for every situation, and be very over powered, what PrC would I take as an archivist.
The DMM: Persistent spell looks intriguing, what buffs should I look for to permanize?
Also, the Malconvoker looks cool, but what should I summon?
The result is being able to blow your psionic focus to power any metamagic feat you have spontaneously, though you normally need a full round action to recharge.
I second the notion: Talk to your DM and decide what spells you can access.
Without knowing that stuff, making an Archivist build is pointless. One DM's rule on spell acquisition could lead you to taking feats or PrCs to take advantage of it. Another DM's makes another build far more optimal.
Thus, you don't find any successful Archivist builds on the boards not targetted for a specific DM. Archivists are basically do-it-yourself, pros-only, if you want something highly optimized.
So we're a go, and lets get to it. =)
I was thinking multiclassing would be a good idea. Im just not sure with what.
Multiclassing is not generally a good idea for a spell-caster, due to the loss of spellcasting levels.
If you still like to consider that and still be considered an 'ultimate spell caster' then you might want to consider the Bamboo Bookworm I've created a while ago. It's a Bamboo Spirit Folk, Wizard / Archivist / Mystic Theurge 4 / Archive Hierophant.
In the end of 20 levels, you'll end up with 17th CL on both sides and a lot of spells to cast. Plus, the requirements are not really strict beyond your race and skill points (3 knowledge skills).You can choose any feats, your a SAD dual caster (unlike most dual-casters) and come out ahead with the right ACFs.
However, this build will suffer some of the same drawback from most as a Wizard / Cleric / MT. Being you'll be behind the spell casting power curve. So it might not be the best choice.
1-5: Archivist. Extend Spell, Knowledge Devotion, Draconic Archivist
6: Holt Warden (1st). Persistent Spell
7: Archivist
8: Sacred Exorcist (1st)
9-10: Archivist. Feat choice: DMM (Persistent Spell) Subsequent feats are Extra Turning.
11: Contemplative (Magic or Spell domain)
12-14: Archivist. Pick up Spell Focus (Conjuration) as your bonus feat.
15-20: Thaumaturgist
You could go Malconvoker, but DMM: Persist lends itself to self-buffing, as does the Knowledge domain.
The self-buffing Persistent menace also comes in Southern Magician (Incantatrix) and Spelldancer flavors.
This one goes for Archivist 11 for Dread Secret, the stun with no save.
Ok, here's a good-aligned one with DMM: Persistent.
1-5: Archivist. Extend Spell, Knowledge Devotion, Draconic Archivist
6: Holt Warden (1st). Persistent Spell
7: Archivist
8: Sacred Exorcist (1st)
9-10: Archivist. Feat choice: DMM (Persistent Spell) Subsequent feats are Extra Turning.
11: Contemplative (Magic or Spell domain)
12-14: Archivist. Pick up Spell Focus (Conjuration) as your bonus feat.
15-20: Thaumaturgist
You could go Malconvoker, but DMM: Persist lends itself to self-buffing, as does the Knowledge domain.
The self-buffing Persistent menace also comes in Southern Magician (Incantatrix) and Spelldancer flavors.
This one goes for Archivist 11 for Dread Secret, the stun with no save.
Allrighty, how quickly could I pick up DMM: Persistent if I was a human with 2 flaws?
Otherwise you need Sacred Exorcist for the turning before you can take DMM. You didn't give a starting level so.... forgive me if the build I gave is strong in the wrong places.
Im thinking of taking the levels of Arcane Hierophant before Mystic theurge. If Im going to gimp myself for 10 levels, someone let me know.
The Nightcloak is a good PrC for Archivists at the upper levels for this ability:
Grace of the Dark (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, the nightcloak can use the power of her mind to protect herself. She adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) to all saving throws.
The Divine Magician alternate class feature for clerics potentially adds all abjuration, necromancy, and divination spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list to the cleric list.
I might consider starting with a Cloistered Cleric level for Turn/Rebuke to fuel Divine Metamagic, and also a couple of domains (Planning and Undeath for feats) and swapping the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion. It is potentially worth the loss of a caster level.
Putting that all together, you'd end up as a Cloistered cleric 1/Archivist 12/Nightcloak 7, but not necessarily in that order. Or is Archivist 11 the good stopping point? The Nightcloak 8 ability is decent, if so.
The goal of this was to be the ultimate caster, I wont even really be losing a bit of spells for 9th level (5 spells instead of 4 for pure wizard, and 5 of 5 for archivist), before bonus spells per class. With the practiced spellcaster feat for wizard and archivist, Im still casting at 20th level anyway. Im not seeing a real big drawback. If there is one, please fill me in.
Not being sarcastic, by the way. Im being serious lol.
What's wrong with being a dual caster?
THEY SUCK. Just please purge the idea from your mind forever. It is never worth it, unless you can get in early somehow (Binder 1 with Improved Binding going into Anima Mage, etc). Having lots of low level spells isn't nearly as powerful as having several high level spells.
The only time non-early entry theurge type characters are even worth considering is for games that start at like 20th+ level, and even then, they're still probably not as powerful as a character focused on a single casting class.
If you want a dire lion, take the Mother Cyst feat and permanently enslave one via Necrotic Tumor, along with a pet wizard to craft items for you, etc. Or summon one. Or take Leadership. Or animate one as an undead. Or make an effigy dire lion. Whatever. Just don't give up your two highest levels of spells for one.
THEY SUCK. Just please purge the idea from your mind forever. It is never worth it, unless you can get in early somehow (Binder 1 with Improved Binding going into Anima Mage, etc). Having lots of low level spells isn't nearly as powerful as having several high level spells.
The only time non-early entry theurge type characters are even worth considering is for games that start at like 20th+ level, and even then, they're still probably not as powerful as a character focused on a single casting class.
If you want a dire lion, take the Mother Cyst feat and permanently enslave one via Necrotic Tumor, along with a pet wizard to craft items for you, etc. Or summon one. Or take Leadership. Or animate one as an undead. Or make an effigy dire lion. Whatever. Just don't give up your two highest levels of spells for one.
But Im not giving up my two highest levels of spells for it. I'll still have five
9th level spells before bonus spells. Ultimately at 20 my spells will look like this: 10 (0th), 11 (1st), 11(2nd), 11 (3rd), 11 (4th), 11 (5th). 11 (6th), 9 (7th), 7 (8th), 5 (9th), and I'll be casting as 20th level in both classes, and again all of that is before bonus spells. I was going to go Arcane Hierophant before Mystic theurge, too.
Is this build really that bad?
Seriously, just think about it for a bit. It should be freakin' obvious. One Evard's Black Tentacles or Polymorph is worth all the Magic Missiles or Cure Light Wounds in the entire freakin' world at level 7. You might as well not even be a spellcaster.
I see people talk about how great arcane heirophant is, but it would have to let me summon freakin' godzilla at will to make up for what it costs. There are almost no builds that I'd even consider playing that lose more than 1 spell caster level, and even for just losing one, they better be giving me something big.
Take a look at this:
I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels.
II. Wieldest thou thy two-handed weapon with alacrity; but two weapons shalt thou not wield, excepting that thou hast a source of bonus damage such as Sneak Attack.
III. Doubt not the power of the Druid, for he is mighty.
IV. Avoid ye the temptation of Gauntlets of True Strike, for they shall lead thee astray down the Path of Non-Rule Cheese.
V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.
VI. Makest thou no build with an odd number of fighter levels, for such things are not pleasing to the Spirits of Optimization.
VII. The Rules of 3.5 are paramount; invoke not the rules of 3.0 if a newer version be available.
VIII. When beseeching the Bretheren of Optimization, come thou not empty handed, lest they smite thee; rather, bringest thou thine own build, that they may offer suggestions and guidance.
IX. Invoke not "common sense," for it is not common.
X. Thou shalt call no build "The Ultimate X" unless his name be Pun-Pun, or thou shalt see thine "Ultimate" build topped by the Bretheren within five minutes of posting.
Yea, verily.
There is a reason that "Thou shalt not give up caster levels" is on there twice. You might as well shoot yourself in the nuts with a freakin' bowling ball gun if you're giving up 3 caster levels. It would be less painful.
And with this particular build, it is even worse. You're starting out as an archivist. You can already cast nearly every spell in the game, if you try hard enough to get a scroll of it. It is completely idiotic to multiclass this into another spellcasting class. Seriously.
I'm sorry if this is offensive, and that build might be very flavorful and someone might enjoy it, but this is the CO board. We're talking about optimizing things for power and effectiveness here, not because they sound cool and get a nice fuzzy pet.
and Blackinfernox, if you would like to follow all the optimizers who matter, everyone is over at Brilliant Gameologists now. Pop on over and we'll give you some real advice.
BTW, Phaedrus, I'm Bell on BG.
Both of these lose a level of spellcasting, compared to the three levels the AH build loses. But, they both gain the ability to Persist Spells with no spell level increase from their loss, plus other benefits like Knowledge Devotion, free feats, or the ability to bind 5th level vestiges which can give you things like a reroll every 5 rounds, etc.
So they can both run around with persistent Divine Power and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (or Righteous Might), turning them into combat monsters. The AH can't even cast Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (or Righteous Might), and his Divine Power only lasts 8 rounds. He has a companion familiar, but who really cares? It is an ok ability, but it won't destroy combats like either of the other builds will.
You could also go with an Archivist/Sacred Exorcist and lose no caster levels to get Divine Metamagic, but it won't kick in until higher levels. The Cloistered Cleric/Archivist gets it as early as level 1 if he wants, and the Binder/Archivist/Anima Mage has plenty of things to do before he gets the ability to persist things for free at level 9, and they're both only a single level behind all the straight clerics, wizards, etc as far as spell acquisition, and are on par with sorcerers.
As for the 1st level in Cloistered Cleric... that sounds like a good idea. DMM is just that strong. For my part, the things I really care about persisting come in at about 4th-5th level... right around the time an Archivist/Sacred Exorcist gets access to DMM.
The DMM angle is only one aspect of Archivist, and although it is probably the optimal one to work it would be unwise to ignore the other possibilities. May I call your attention once again to the Holt Warden (CC) / Contemplative (CD) (Magic/Spell) splash.
This maneuver will get you domain slots. Yes, actual domain slots, which thanks to Contemplative you'll be able to fill with Anyspell, widening your already-ridiculous variety even further in addition to just giving you more spells of every level.
Im pretty sure Im going to take a level of Cloistered Cleric and then go Archivist. That way I'll have DMM at first level, and can persit summon monsters at level 1, until I get some worthwhile buffs.
Im pretty sure Im going to take a level of Cloistered Cleric and then go Archivist. That way I'll have DMM at first level, and can persit summon monsters at level 1, until I get some worthwhile buffs.
That's all well in good until a kobold smacks your Fiendish Dire Rat to -2 hit points. :-)
If I we going to persist one spell from the cleric spell list; I'd pick Ice Gauntlet (SpC). It's like getting a free +1 frost weapon at level 1. Or you can persist Lesser Vigor for fast healing. There might be better level 1 clerics spells.
Come on now, a little more homework is required to play this kind of character. It's even called "Archivist," to give you a hint on the kind of reading required. The joy of the class is looking up cool, obscure spells that will give you an advantage, and having stories about how you came across this freaky super-rare domain-only super-secret spell and stole it for your own use.
You know you want it: a Mystic Lash, Holy Star, and a Sunmace. Leave the begging for Lesser Vigors to the clerics.