Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 j2.504 Jul 30, 2009 16:48:14	This is fairly straight forward: I plan on doing a True Necromancer build using Archivist and Wizard. Mystic Theurge will be in the mix (at the right times to max out caster levels). Early entry will also happen, likely through the Illumian trick. Obviously Archivist does not meet the Divine qualifications needed for True Necromancer. So here's my question: Rather than taking a 1 level dip into Cleric, is there a prestige class (or acf/feat combo) that would allow the character to meet the TN prereq's for the Rebuking ability and grants a general domain that I can use for qualifying for TN? Additionally this prc couldn't have a domain or rebuke/turn as a prereq. The goal here is to avoid the 1 level dip into Cleric alltogether to minimize the spell casting level loss. Worst case scenario, I'll take a 1 level Cleric dip, but it'd be nice to avoid that. Don't try to talk me out of TN - I know the plusses and minuses, and the alternatives. This character is intended to be something of a Wee Jas type, with the goals being a prepared caster of as many spells as possible, combined with Necromancy. Not an ultimate Necromancer, not an undead army general, not a spontaneous caster, and not a straight spell caster.
#2 j2.504 Jul 30, 2009 16:49:54	The only other option I'd look at (for this character) is some combo that makes the Archivist function in the same capacity as stated above (essentially all divine/and all wizard prepared spells in their book).
#3 j2.504 Jul 30, 2009 16:52:42	Here's a related question, but not on the direct topic: There's a prc from a non-campaign WOTC splat book (I forget the one off the top of my head) that dramatically cuts the cost of writing prepared spells in a spellbook. I think it's a 2 level dip. Will this prc work with the Archivist prayerbook (RAW) also?
#4 sublime-sage Jul 30, 2009 18:05:34	The class geometer two lvl dip lets the spells use only one page. How can a Archivist use Arcane spells as divine. I know a feat but that was a dragon mag.
#5 j2.504 Jul 30, 2009 18:28:46	The class geometer two lvl dip lets the spells use only one page. How can a Archivist use Arcane spells as divine. I know a feat but that was a dragon mag. Geometer is the prc I was thinking of - thanks for that - CARC pg 39. I've reread the pertainent text. There's nothing in the ability (Book of Geometry) itself that specifies that the spells copied need to be Arcane or Divine. However, it does say spell book, rather than prayerbook, and the class advancement states +1 level of arcane spellcasting. Regarding this, I was wondering if it was appropriate/inappropriate to allow the geometer to grant that ability to Archivist, as copying spells into their book functions in an almost identical manner to that of a Wizard. In a similar fashion, I would have no problem allowing a Boccob's Blessed Book to work for Archivist, though I may/may not require a separate book for divine, and a separate book for arcane writings. Based on the BBB text, it may require a new type of magic book be used, but function/cost would be the same. Regarding Archivist using Arcane spells as Divine. I don't have specifics, but I believe I've heard that Archivist builds can gain access to all divine and arcane spells, but I don't know the build, whether it's true or not, or if I read incorrectly.
#6 jaronk Jul 30, 2009 18:43:40	There's no build necessary other than Archivist itself. Basically, the rules on researching spells say that you can make a duplicate of any existing spell, or design a new spell with DM's permission (and the recommendations to the DM are that they make the new spell as similar to existing spells as possible). As such, you can research a duplicate of any existing spell without DM fiat getting in the way. So now all you have to do is prove that a divine version of the spell you want exists, and you can just research it to get it. There's a variant of Favored Souls that get any 6th level and below Sorcerer/Wizard spell as a divine spell, so that adds their list from there down. There's also a Cleric variant that gives you any Sorc/Wiz spells, one per level, instead of a domain, though that's limited to a few schools (IIRC Conjuration, Necromancy, and Divination). So that gives up to 9th level spells that way, of some schools. The Shugenja list and domain lists should give you every other spell you'd want too, and if push comes to shove the Hexer PrC lets you have any Sorc/Wiz spell at all as a divine spell if you enter it with a divine class. As such, the entire Wizard/Sorc list is in fact available to Archivists. There's also a Divine Bard variant in UA, which adds the Bard list. JaronK
#7 j2.504 Jul 30, 2009 19:01:44	There's no build necessary other than Archivist itself. Basically, the rules on researching spells say that you can make a duplicate of any existing spell, or design a new spell with DM's permission (and the recommendations to the DM are that they make the new spell as similar to existing spells as possible). As such, you can research a duplicate of any existing spell without DM fiat getting in the way. So now all you have to do is prove that a divine version of the spell you want exists, and you can just research it to get it. There's a variant of Favored Souls that get any 6th level and below Sorcerer/Wizard spell as a divine spell, so that adds their list from there down. There's also a Cleric variant that gives you any Sorc/Wiz spells, one per level, instead of a domain, though that's limited to a few schools (IIRC Conjuration, Necromancy, and Divination). So that gives up to 9th level spells that way, of some schools. The Shugenja list and domain lists should give you every other spell you'd want too, and if push comes to shove the Hexer PrC lets you have any Sorc/Wiz spell at all as a divine spell if you enter it with a divine class. As such, the entire Wizard/Sorc list is in fact available to Archivists. There's also a Divine Bard variant in UA, which adds the Bard list. JaronK Thanks for the details - that will definitely help - especially the breakdown you posted. I thought it worked something along those lines. With regard to the researching of spells: Isn't it a fairly steep price to research new spells? - I haven't looked into it in a while. Using the same logic, if it were cheap, couldn't you just use Wiz to gain healing spells (or the whole Divine list) for example? - I understand the convincing the DM part as to availablity. But that should work on an equal basis for Wiz (If DM says all arcane spells are available as preresearched divine spells now, then DM should conclude that all divine spells have been preresearched into Arcane spells). I wouldn't blanket allow it, but I would allow it occassionally with effort from the PC (like quest vs. doing their own research). If I were to allow it (blanket), it would almost render Wiz as a useless class. I also understand the huge cost/time savings of Archivist stripping all the Divine lists possible first - that's very useful. So, I'd be weighing Archivist + spell research costs on mostly upper level spells vs. Archivist/Wiz/CL1/MT/TN spell level loss (reduced with early entry) + TN abilities. Interesting...
#8 j2.504 Jul 30, 2009 19:42:13	Here's another question based on the Archivist: Assume the primary goal is to have nearly every prepared spell written in a spell and/or prayer book. In other words, the character specifically intends and plays with the goal of acquiring as many spells as possible, including through winning duels, stealing other's spell books, questing (or having others quest on his behalf) for rare spells, etc, Assume 1) Geometer doesn't work for Archivist. Assume 2) DM will not make every divine spell arcane/every arcane spell divine, unless you do the research yourself. Assume 3) Stronger methods of Early Entry is allowed. Assume 4) Cleric is required as a part of the TN build. Assume 5) Necromancer is kind of important, but not as important as acquiring spells. Assume 6) Generalist wizard optimized as much as possible for gaining of spells & spells per day (domain wiz, 1st level apprentice feats, etc.). Which is the better build when taking spell research into account to accomplish that primary goal? 1) Archivist/CL1/Domain Generalist Wiz/MT/TN (Maximizing Spells per level, and using early entry). An advantage here is the Necromancy features, the domain(s), and total number of spells that can be cast per day. One other cost advantage is bonus spells added through levelling for 2 classes rather than one?). 2) Straight Archivist (researching most spells at his expense). Advantage here is better straight upward spell progression. Remember, the question isn't who's the more powerful caster (though that does factor in somewhat), but rather which is a better build to acquire the most spells possible when all factors are considered?
#9 j2.504 Jul 30, 2009 20:05:26	I guess this would be the perfect time to ask this question: I've looked at the DMG (around page 40) on spell creation. This section talks about the DM creating new spells. I may be confusing this with an earlier edition, but is there a section relating to a character developing their own spells, and the costs involved &/or the costs of researching an existing spell to add to their spell book if they took time to research it (instead of purchasing it)? Here's what the D20 SRD says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm): Independent Research A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. That didn't help much.
#10 Endarire Jul 30, 2009 21:47:36	I highly advise avoiding True Necromancer. You stunt your casting progression too much. Instead, Archivist20 has the potential to learn every spell in the game. Boccob's Blessed Book holds every spell on one page of its 1000 pages total and scribing spells into it costs nothing. A Tome of Ancient Lore (Complete Divine 103) costs 22,000 gold. To use it, you must sacrifice a level 5 divine spell slot OR be at least level 9 and take the True Believer feat (Complete Divine 86). Note how the text says, "Its magical pages contain every conceivable spell." Every. Conceivable. Spell. Nevermind the randomization parts. Copy spells to the Blessed Book first to ensure you can find them on demand. Assuming you buy only one of each, that's 34,500 gold and 1 feat or spell slot to get every spell possible. If your DM requires you take Sanctify Relic, that's another feat, but a reasonable price for the reward. Now you just need time to transcribe.
#11 jaronk Jul 30, 2009 21:50:26	With regard to the researching of spells: Isn't it a fairly steep price to research new spells? - I haven't looked into it in a while. Using the same logic, if it were cheap, couldn't you just use Wiz to gain healing spells (or the whole Divine list) for example? No, because Wizards can only learn spells on the Wizard/Sorc list. A spell which changes from Druid 3 to Wizard 3 is now a new spell, not a duplicate of an old one, so only DM fiat would allow that to happen. But a spell which was Druid 3 can be researched as a Druid 3 spell and it's an exact duplicate... but the Archivist can use it, because the Archivist can use any divine spell. So yeah, only Archivists can pull off this trick, simply because their spell list is actually "any divine spell." Research, meanwhile, has no listed cost. JaronK
#12 Endarire Jul 30, 2009 22:05:27	3.5 DMG 198: Researching original spells takes 1000 gold and 1 week per spell level. For example, researching a L2 spell takes 2K gold and 2 weeks.
#13 j2.504 Jul 30, 2009 23:46:24	No, because Wizards can only learn spells on the Wizard/Sorc list. A spell which changes from Druid 3 to Wizard 3 is now a new spell, not a duplicate of an old one, so only DM fiat would allow that to happen. But a spell which was Druid 3 can be researched as a Druid 3 spell and it's an exact duplicate... but the Archivist can use it, because the Archivist can use any divine spell. So yeah, only Archivists can pull off this trick, simply because their spell list is actually "any divine spell." Research, meanwhile, has no listed cost. JaronK I understand the Archivist class ability to do all Divine, and your breakdown was a really helpful reminder - I probably wasn't clear. I was talking about creating new spells. I meant that if an Archivist can research new spells that are based on an Arcane version, and research them into an identical but now divine spell, a Wizard could in turn research divine spells into Arcane versions. That's what I meant. Goose/Gander thing, unless something specifically prevents it from occurring (like cost). Wizards and sorcerers can only learn spells on the Sorc/Wiz list, but they can research spells the same way an Archivist can I believe. That's where the cost of researching spells came into effect. If researching costs a lot like one of the recent posts stated, it really puts a bind on the Archivist when comparing the full spell collection vs. a Theurge build. If they cost nothing, then Archivist would be a really, really good choice. Archivist still rocks either way (all Divine is awesome), but paying a lot to research arcane spells (if that's the case) into divine definitely impacts the Archivist.
#14 j2.504 Jul 31, 2009 0:09:05	I highly advise avoiding True Necromancer. You stunt your casting progression too much. Instead, Archivist20 has the potential to learn every spell in the game. Boccob's Blessed Book holds every spell on one page of its 1000 pages total and scribing spells into it costs nothing. A Tome of Ancient Lore (Complete Divine 103) costs 22,000 gold. To use it, you must sacrifice a level 5 divine spell slot OR be at least level 9 and take the True Believer feat (Complete Divine 86). Note how the text says, "Its magical pages contain every conceivable spell." Every. Conceivable. Spell. Nevermind the randomization parts. Copy spells to the Blessed Book first to ensure you can find them on demand. Assuming you buy only one of each, that's 34,500 gold and 1 feat or spell slot to get every spell possible. If your DM requires you take Sanctify Relic, that's another feat, but a reasonable price for the reward. Now you just need time to transcribe. Now, that is a bit of an a$$kicker. So, in theory, the Tome would not only contain spells from WoTC books, but also any conceivable researched spells all in one place. I think as DM, I would limit it to published spells, and known "newly researched" spells, not Divine versions of every Arcane spell. Very, very useful tool though!
#15 j2.504 Jul 31, 2009 0:26:34	3.5 DMG 198: Researching original spells takes 1000 gold and 1 week per spell level. For example, researching a L2 spell takes 2K gold and 2 weeks. I thought it worked something like that. Thanks for the info - that was very helpful.
#16 malkavon Jul 31, 2009 7:37:11	A Tome of Ancient Lore (Complete Divine 103) costs 22,000 gold. To use it, you must sacrifice a level 5 divine spell slot OR be at least level 9 and take the True Believer feat (Complete Divine 86). Note how the text says, "Its magical pages contain every conceivable spell." Every. Conceivable. Spell. Nevermind the randomization parts. Copy spells to the Blessed Book first to ensure you can find them on demand. Just so you know, the Tome of Ancient Lore was reprinted in the MIC ... for 5,500 gp. It does specifiy that you have a 50% chance of finding any arcane spell of your highest spell level know, and a 100% chance of finding any arcane spell of lower levels. It doesn't say anything about learning divine spells as far as I can recall, though I might be misremembering.