Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ElfenLied Aug 13, 2008 7:51:59	Hello all, I just read through the "Archivist" entry in Heroes of Horror. Essentially, this class is a divine spellcaster using a spellbook, and they use int as their primary casting stat. I wonder, is this class any good? One of the obvious choices would be to reduce MAD in certain combinations, but other than that, I can't really see why one should use this class at all. I'm sure I'm overlooking something, and I hope you might point out the things I missed.
#2 gaufgauf Aug 13, 2008 8:38:35	The main point is to be able to cast spells much faster than you should. You also have access to all divine caster spell lists. Without getting into the cheesier stuff, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers and Adepts are all core divine casters from which the archivist can use spells. From there, as simple examples Lesser Restoration is a 1st level Paladin spell Heal is a 5th level Adept spell The cleric and druid lists both contain some great spells If your game adds only the Spell Compendium, it gets that much better: You get access to some amazing arcane spells through various cleric domains. There are many additional nifty spells you can get early from Ranger and Paladin. This is without using weird classes divine classes, warlock cheese, or variants like the Divine Bard, which basically allow an archivist to cast any relevant spell in the game. There have been discussions already as to what would be available where in terms of scrolls, but the druid, paladin, ranger, adept and even most cleric domain stuff should be available in any decent-sized city. I know some will say that most rangers don't take Scribe Scroll as a feat and I agree, but all you need is to pay one to supply the spell while you provide the XPs and the feat (archivists get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level) Of course, the class loses some of its appeal if you play in a fishbowl environment like the World's Largest Dungeon or something the like...
#3 priere Aug 13, 2008 8:58:10	Of course, the major downside to the Archivist (and the major downside to a lot of the more 'broken' things) is your DM. Archivist is only as good as your spell sources.
#4 gaufgauf Aug 13, 2008 9:25:47	Of course, the major downside to the Archivist (and the major downside to a lot of the more 'broken' things) is your DM. Archivist is only as good as your spell sources. Which is why I mainly talked about the core classes. Most DMs (I know, some won't. This is not meant to start a flaming war) will be ok with core ranger, paladin, druid and adept spell availability on scrolls. Even Spell Compendium stuff shouldn't be too bad. Actually, I found that the main problem with the archivist, one that is not mentioned a lot when showcasing 20th level builds, is the monetary problem. Ranger and Paladin scrolls are not on the cheap, and even the other ones, once you add up the scroll cost with scribing the spells into the prayer book, you will find that for lower level builds (5th level and lower), it is very difficult to get many spells if you want some trinkets as well. This limitation is often overlooked as you see 20 level builds with almost unlimited cash. Certainly not the case when you try to build a 4th level archivist following WBL guidelines!
#5 jaronk Aug 13, 2008 9:37:13	Just as a note, Archivists can cast any Divine Spell... and that's a really big list, including any Bard and any Wizard spell (due to the Divine Bard from UA and the Hexer from... whichever book the Hexer is from. It's a PrC that's available to Clerics and gives them any Wizard/Sorc spell as though it's on their list, meaning it's a divine version of those spells. Other ways to access the Wizard/Sorc list include the Favoured Soul varient in Dragon Magic and the Cleric varient in CC or CM (can't remember which) plus the domain list). Once you've established the existance of those spells as divine spells, you can go ahead and research the spells instead of trying to search for scrolls. Researching spells always works if you're duplicating an existing spell, after all (the rules for researching only become DM fiat when creating new spells). Also, a Warlock can make scrolls of any divine spell that exists using their level 11 ability, so that's another route. So yeah, Archivists are one of the Big 5 for good reason. JaronK
#6 ronyon Aug 13, 2008 19:48:33	Which is why I mainly talked about the core classes. Most DMs (I know, some won't. This is not meant to start a flaming war) will be ok with core ranger, paladin, druid and adept spell availability on scrolls. Even Spell Compendium stuff shouldn't be too bad. Actually, I found that the main problem with the archivist, one that is not mentioned a lot when showcasing 20th level builds, is the monetary problem. Ranger and Paladin scrolls are not on the cheap, and even the other ones, once you add up the scroll cost with scribing the spells into the prayer book, you will find that for lower level builds (5th level and lower), it is very difficult to get many spells if you want some trinkets as well. This limitation is often overlooked as you see 20 level builds with almost unlimited cash. Certainly not the case when you try to build a 4th level archivist following WBL guidelines! This is a good point, but a few things can help. First, get a casters shield. You dont have to use it in combat, but it halves your scribing costs.You could to strip that property off of a shield and making a wondrous item,but it will cost about the same. Take the crafting feat that makes your feed material cheaper., and you are on your way. Scribing costs money, and takes time, so another trick is Inscribe Rune. take hardly any time at all, no matter what level the spell is, and it might qualify as divine magical writing, and thus be copyable. Dont neglect clerical prayer books.At level three and above, buying a spell in prayerbook form is cheaper than a scroll, once you copy it and sell the original for 1/2 the asking price. Later, a Wish is in order. One Wish can: # Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value. # Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. Either wish for a spell book with 25,000 gp worth of spells you want, or a Blessed Book filled with the same. The second option is the bad cop, and should make the first one look pretty good to your DM. Dont insist of course, but this is pretty tame use of the Wish spell.
#7 kurashu Aug 13, 2008 22:02:29	Be careful with the divine bard and hexer stuff. It's bad for your health when DMs throw books at you. Something that's less cheesy is getting clerics to scribe scrolls of domain spells that don't appear on class lists (anyspell, for example). Unless your DM rules you research those.
#8 eldariel Aug 13, 2008 22:08:32	First of all, many dual advancement classes get much better once you can derive both sides off the same stat. Same goes doubly for Gestalt, and having Int as your primary stat is very useful in the absence of Wis-based Arcane classes. Also, high Int means Archivists tend to make better skill monkeys than Clerics (even of the Cloistered variety - Archivists max Int so generally the difference is going to be more than 4 points, especially later on). Also, as has been talked here, Archivists have a superb spell list, only second to Artificer out of all D&D 3.5 classes (although much of it is admittedly up to the DM - not all scrolls can be found even if they exist without ridiculous Gather Information-checks). In addition, while Archivists generally don't have as many bonus spells as core casters (since they derive their bonus spells off a secondary stat; Wis isn't something you'll pump that much so you probably won't get bonus spells on the highest level-slots; you'd need 18+ base Wisdom to get an extra 9th level spell with "just" +4 book and +6 item), they have the same number of spells as Cleric as a base (having Wizards beat by 1). And while Archivists don't have Turn Undead by default, a small dip in Sacred Exorcist costs them basically nothing and gives them Turn Undead; your Undead Turning-level doesn't actually matter at all since basically all use of Turn Undead is to fuel divine feats anyways. Finally, Archivists have a few actually useful class features. Dark Knowledge has many handy uses, especially Dark Knowledge: Foe. The bonus Scribe Scroll and few feats are handy, and the Knowledge-bonuses don't hurt either, especially since they are untyped.
#9 warweaver Aug 14, 2008 1:11:11	Finally, Archivists have a few actually useful class features. Dark Knowledge has many handy uses, especially Dark Knowledge: Foe. Yes - what everyone's already said, but don't forget that Dark Knowledge is a move action - very handy when you just don't have anything else to use that on (which, if you're a back-row party caster, might be fairly often). It's like getting half a bard for free with your divine wizard! :P
#10 ShakaUVM Aug 14, 2008 2:41:37	#1 the spell list. A class that can cast off of nearly every spell list is better than a class that only casts off of one. #2 there's ways and means to get the scrolls you need. Artificer and Warlock cohorts are easy, but there's plenty of others. You can wish for a scroll with a bunch of spells on it if you're really stuck. #3 the ability to stun a monster (no save) with a knowledge check. This is crazy powerful.
#11 ookamikiba Aug 14, 2008 18:39:16	#1 the spell list. A class that can cast off of nearly every spell list is better than a class that only casts off of one. #2 there's ways and means to get the scrolls you need. Artificer and Warlock cohorts are easy, but there's plenty of others. You can wish for a scroll with a bunch of spells on it if you're really stuck. #3 the ability to stun a monster (no save) with a knowledge check. This is crazy powerful. I'm sold.