My group and I have been wondering about the efficiency of an Archivist in a core-ish environment (i.e. inserting the Archivist class in an otherwise core-only environment).
The basic question is this: how does the Archivist compare with the other full caster classes in a campaign with core spells and domains?
The main difficulties that I see are these:
1. In the campaigns that I've played so far, it is not very easy to find some spells scribed on scrolls and, anyway, learning spells from scrolls is rather expensive. Wizards face a similar difficulty but, at least, arcane scrolls of Teleport are easier to find than divine scrolsl of Teleport...
So, is there a way around this difficulty if it cannot be assumed that I can simply walk in "Ye Olde Scroll Shoppe" and ask for a scroll with a divine Dimension Door, a knowledge domain True Seeing or an adept Heal? I mean... I've never even seen an adept in our games
Are there any cute tricks that the Archivist can pull in core in order to get those very nice spells?
2. How is this class actually played in Core? For sure, I can see the Archivist being a battlefield controller, a blaster, a God, an archer or whatnot w/ sources outside of Core... but, in Core, and unless one can consistently find divine scrolls other than "cure X wounds" or "remove Y affliction", I fear that the Archivist is reduced to a cleric with less spells, less HP and worse BAB... or a wizard with a cleric's spell list
3. If I'm not mistaken, there is a slight MAD issue here (aka "I'd rather put my second best stat in Con rather than Wis" ;) ). So, does the lack of extra spells really hurt, or is it something you can live with?
4. Are there any core prestige classes that work well with the Archivist? Any good multi-class dips?
So... yeah, I know I'm kind of vague, but any insight would be more than welcome
Cheers,
Durandal 1707
Suppose an archivist gets a hold of an Invisibility scroll.
If the scroll was scribed by a cleric with the Trickery domain, everything is cool, it's a divine spell and he can add it to his prayerbook.
However, if the spell was scribed by a wizard, can he still treat it as divine (with the rationale that the Invisibility spell appears on the trickery domain list)? Would he be able to add it to his collection then?
I'm guessing a resounding "no", but it never hurts to ask ;)
Cheerio,
Durandal 1707
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
- The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine).
As to finding scrolls, you could go on quests to get ones you really want. Go seek out a temple to Farlagn...whatever to get Travel domain spells, etc. Of course you'll have to work with your DM on this, but most reasonable ones shouldn't have a problem with it. In fact, they might be happy for the adventure hooks.
Long Answer:
There was thread about about this way back when, the consensus was that Archivist could only cast spells that actaully appear on spell lists. A cleric Domains do not explicitly say that you "Add" domain spells to your cleric spell list, so techinally they aren't on the "Cleric spell list" at all. Then someone point out that the prestige class Divine Cursader who actaully uses Domain lists AS a spell list. So it negate the whole problem.
So if your in a Core-Only(+Archivist) game, this problem rears it's ugly head again because Divine Cursaders don't exsist in your game.
Short:
No class in Core+Archivist has domain spells as a "Spell List." So Arch can't learn them.
This opinion might have changed and I simply missed that, If so: Please point it out, I'd be glad to see that myself! Also if you DM is ok with just letting you do it anyway: Do that.
Archivists can learn domain spells irregardless of them "being" on a spell list. They are still spells, clerics can still scribe them, archivists can still learn them.
Good.
2: Archivists can explicitly have Domain spells, it's even in the FAQ as an example of what they can have. If it ever gets cast as a divine spell, they get it. That long ago discussion was completely and totally wrong.
3: Don't worry too much about Wis. You get +1 spell per level over a Wizard anyway, so it's not like you're hurting for bonus spells.
4: Your lists to chose from are Domain spells, Cleric spells, Druid spells, Paladin spells, Ranger spells, and Adept spells. Those last three actually have some of the best stuff, because you'll be getting those spells long before the actual classes might. For example, Adepts get Heal as a lower level spell than Clerics, which is balanced by the fact that Adepts get slower casting progression... but you don't, so go nuts.
JaronK
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3.
Answering something in another thread made me think of this.
There's a feat (Academic Priest) from Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins that will make your maximum divine spell level and bonus spells based on Intelligence. The max spell level for archivists is already based on INT, but this would swap bonus spells over to int too; At the cost of 1 feat, WIS no longer factors into an Archivist's spellcasting.
Oh hey, I also have a question. Would a Wizard with Alternative Source Spell be able to scribe divine scrolls for the Archivist to learn?
Answering something in another thread made me think of this.
There's a feat (Academic Priest) from Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins that will make your maximum divine spell level and bonus spells based on Intelligence. The max spell level for archivists is already based on INT, but this would swap bonus spells over to int too; At the cost of 1 feat, WIS no longer factors into an Archivist's spellcasting.
Oh hey, I also have a question. Would a Wizard with Alternative Source Spell be able to scribe divine scrolls for the Archivist to learn?
Research might help to counter the rarity of scrolls w/ "exotic" divine spells (as I said, I don't expect divine scrolls of fly to be common). However, where can I find the rules for researching? Other that it *can* be done, I haven't been able to find them
Ok about Wis, it seems not to hurt too bad.
However, I'm still unsure about the role of an Archivist in a core game: would he only be a support character with healing/buffing duties backing up the cleric? Or can he take on a more active role? If yes, how?
Cheerio,
Durandal 1707
Hmmm... let's see...
Research might help to counter the rarity of scrolls w/ "exotic" divine spells (as I said, I don't expect divine scrolls of fly to be common). However, where can I find the rules for researching? Other that it *can* be done, I haven't been able to find them
All there is is the rules in the PHB which say you can research duplicate spells or new spells, and then it directs you to the DMG, which gives rules for how a DM should determine if new spells should be allowed (and those rules basically amount to "is it comperable to existing spells?). That tells you it works, but yeah, the rules for research are somewhat incomplete, so consult with your DM.
However, I'm still unsure about the role of an Archivist in a core game: would he only be a support character with healing/buffing duties backing up the cleric? Or can he take on a more active role? If yes, how?
Basically, he's a Wizard. In other words, his party role is whatever you like.
JaronK
Basically, he's a Wizard. In other words, his party role is whatever you like
Well now... the archivist doesn't get the same spell list as a wizard
He doesn't get the battlefield control spells of a wizard, or his illusions, or his blasting or his utility spells... IMHO, he is more like a wizard with cleric spells (plus the odd exotic domain/druid spell that he manages to research/get a scroll for).So, what would the role of such a character be? And, in the board's opinion, would he be up to par with a wizard or a cleric?
Core-core, or SRD-core?
Core-core
Still... that was a damn fine trick ;)
Cheers,
Durandal 1707
Core-core, or SRD-core? Get Secret Page (Divine Bard list) and cast it to change any spell in your book to any other spell you want it to be. Forget about scrolls, any spell on any divine spell list is just a 10-minute casting time away. If Divine Bard isn't an option, get UMD and a Wand of Secret Page, and you won't even need to find a Divine Bard to scribe a scroll for you.
Secret page lets you transpose the text of one spell onto another, sure, but I don't see how it lets you transpose the text of a spell you do not know/have not learned. I suppose the archivist (or wizard) might be able to use it to reconstitute a spellbook somehow (but would need an existing spellbook with different spells to transpose onto).
Gaining spells as an archivist in any setting is really more of a flavor issue than a rules issue. It all depends on what your DM allows. Research costs, times, etc. are up to the DM to set, along with availability of spells.
Your best bet is to work with your DM by sounding him out to see what he would reasonably or theoretically allow, informing him of what you are after, and trusting him to give you the opportunity to acquire the knowledge you seek in-game.
Here are a few in-game options that might help:
1. Use Gather Information or good old roleplaying to track down NPCs that may have access to the spells you want--adepts, priests of particular deities with domains you favor, etc. This makes sense for an Archivist, since they are all about seeking obscure lore.
2. Have your Archivist spend time debating theology with clergy as a hobby of his. If he is a charming guest and speaker, he may get "referred around" to other clerical orders. This may give him inroads into the spells they have available. Obviously, good Diplomacy skills help here (along with probably good skill in Knowledge (religion) and maybe Perform (oratory)).
You have to be careful with #2. Unlike wizards, archivists often seek lore from those who have great faith in their gods, and a commensurate distaste in seeing the powers granted by their deities potentially misused. I could easily see Archivists becoming pariahs in many campaigns, actively persecuted by religious orders for their blasphemous misuse of holy magic to suit their own mercenary ends--or worse, to fuel their research into dark and forbidden lore.
3. (this one is more than a bit cheesy and cold-blooded) If your DM allows it, take the Leadership feat, and take as a cohort a class you want to harvest for spells. If your cohort should happen to die, retire, or otherwise need to be replaced (hopefully not due to death from a cause that can be traced back to your PC), you can then bring in a cohort of a different class.
4. Archivists are all about obscure lore. I'd recommend suggesting to your DM seeding his campaign with texts of obscure spells and lore that the archivist can look for. These make great treasure, and would be a good way to introduce a few DM-vetted non-core spells into a nominally core-only game.
Well now... the archivist doesn't get the same spell list as a wizard
Yes, he does get the battlefield control spells, and many illusions spells. Check the domain lists, you should find plenty. Now, in Core he doesn't quite get all the Wizard spells, but he gets the vast majority of the good ones.
JaronK
Damien, nice hints
Cheers and thanks to all,
Durandal 1707
For sure... archivists can get wall of fire, mirror image and teleport from the core books, that I'm well aware of ;) The gamble is whether they actually will encounter these spells in a campaign and, since there doesn't seem to be any tricks to "force" these spells into existence, it seems that the archivist is way too dependent on the DM for non-cleric spells...
Damien, nice hints
Cheers and thanks to all,
Durandal 1707
I'm assuming you have a Wizard in your party. If you don't, you can still do this, it'll just be harder.
You can get access to every spell you want in scroll form once the Wizard hits 9th-level, by traveling to Sigil.
DMG, pg. 167, Sigil - City of Doors
Sigil is huge - ten times the size of a Material Plane metropolis. Accordingly, no gp limit applies when buying or selling goods in the City of Doors, and NPCs of any class and level combination can be found there.
Have the Wizard call a nightmare, get it to take you to the Astral plane, and from there you can get to Sigil.
If you lack a Wizard, you can either try to get one to do this trick for you, or you'll have to wait until plane shift becomes available.
On the flipside, you can try to use divination spells to locate an unlocked portal to Sigil on the Material plane. Theoretically, at least one should exist somewhere. Your DM might be more amenable to this option, since it'll serve as a great potential adventure hook, and the effort it takes might help justify getting access to the awesomeness that is Sigil.
JaronK
Clerics can write any existing spell up to 7th level to a scroll via Miracle and scribe scroll. They don't become non-divine in the process. And that's totally core.
Hmm... I'm not sure I'd agree with that. They can emulate any spell up to 7th, but that doesn't mean they're actually casting that spell. They're still casting a 9th level spell called Miracle, no matter what they emulate. So I don't think they could use Miracle as the spell prereq for scribing a scroll of some other spell.
Hmm... I'm not sure I'd agree with that. They can emulate any spell up to 7th, but that doesn't mean they're actually casting that spell. They're still casting a 9th level spell called Miracle, no matter what they emulate. So I don't think they could use Miracle as the spell prereq for scribing a scroll of some other spell.
I am quite certain there is a precedent that you can use miracle to replace a spell while crafting. If you can do that you can scribe scrolls of the spell, too. Now I just have to find it...
I am quite certain there is a precedent that you can use miracle to replace a spell while crafting. If you can do that you can scribe scrolls of the spell, too. Now I just have to find it...
Does that mean you could use Shadow Conj/Evoc to replace spells while crafting, also? That would be nice for making items based of spells with expensive material or XP components. :D
Hmm... I'm not sure I'd agree with that. They can emulate any spell up to 7th, but that doesn't mean they're actually casting that spell. They're still casting a 9th level spell called Miracle, no matter what they emulate. So I don't think they could use Miracle as the spell prereq for scribing a scroll of some other spell.
I am of the same opinion: a scroll of Miracle used to cast Prismatic Spray is still a scroll of Miracle. I believe that the closest you can get is to cast a Miracle with 1000 XP and ask for a scroll of whatever, but... yeah ;)
There are certain cases where either Miracle or Wish can be used in the crafting of specific items (e.g. tomes of +X to ability Y) but not in general. It "duplicates the effects" of the spell in question, it's not the actual spell.
At any rate, I'm not only interested in how the archivist fares at very high levels. At those levels it's not too hard to Find the Path to a temple with exotic divine scrolls or to Discern its Location. The question is what happens until then and it seems that if you can't find the spells you want, you're pretty much stuck with whatever vanilla divine scrolls can be readily purchased. Unless the DM is willing to work with you in order to get the spells you want, that is ;)
Cheers,
Durandal 1707
Does that mean you could use Shadow Conj/Evoc to replace spells while crafting, also? That would be nice for making items based of spells with expensive material or XP components. :D
Depends on whether you can choose to believe in your own shadow-crafted scrolls :P
(JK!)
Cheers,
Durandal 1707