Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 malosasalist Mar 21, 2009 11:59:53	Are they considered NPCs?
#2 pithica Mar 21, 2009 12:21:22	Everyone who isn't a PC is an NPC and is supposed to be played by the DM. I, as a DM, have never followed that rule, though, for things like Cohorts, followers, or even hirelings. I've got enough to worry about with the NPC's I wrote up to have to deal with all your's. I will step in once you start having them do things I don't think they would do, but that's pretty extreme.
#3 cole_caecus Mar 21, 2009 12:29:45	I myself usually let the player control their cohorts and followers. Something like familiars and animal companions i take control of sometimes, if i have a reason to. And as Pithica, i take control of things if they have them do something they usually wouldnt.
#4 pyro_azer Mar 21, 2009 12:52:21	In my campaigns cohorts and followers have always been the PC's responsibility so i could focus on other things.
#5 dr_rocktopus Mar 21, 2009 15:10:19	I will let players run their cohorts, as often their cohorts have more interesting personalities than their mains. Generally followers I handle, and then fairly gently.
#6 malosasalist Mar 21, 2009 15:42:16	Is there any way to make level 1 followers effective? I have to figure if I have 80 archers behind me, ONE of their arrows has to hit and do SOME sort of damage... :/
#7 sofawall Mar 21, 2009 16:31:24	400 archers with arrows of slaying (dragons) Go kill a great wyrm :D
#8 pithica Mar 21, 2009 17:35:06	Is there any way to make level 1 followers effective? A level 1 Sorceror has a base of 3 1st level spells and 5 0th level spells before adjustments. That's potentially 55gp a day he could be earning. A level 1 Expert (well, anything with a craft skill and Skill Focus-Craft X), can easily be hitting a 20 with a Craft check on a take 10. That's 40gp a week in product. If it's a Wizard with Magecraft, that's potentially more like 62.5gp a week, in addition to the 25gp a day he could be making on top of that in Spellcasting services (as above). Anyone with a capped profession or perform skill at 1st is looking at 15-20gp a week. Anyone capped for Handle Animal (at least DC 19 on a take 10) can potentially rear Spider Eaters for you, if you can provide the eggs. That's 1000gp every 6 weeks (3,000gp if you are getting the eggs for free), assuming you can keep a supply of eggs and it takes the same amount of time to rear it as it does to train it for riding. Thats 166gp and change a week, potentially. If he can hit the DC25 to train them to ride, which isn't impossible at 1st, that's 4000gp every 6 weeks, (or 6000 if the eggs are free), as you can rear and train an animal at the same time. That's 666gp and change a week (1000gp for free eggs). At least, that's what I typically use my 1st level followers for... What...pyramid schemes aren't illegal...
#9 dr_rocktopus Mar 21, 2009 17:40:56	In my sig, there's a link to my angry little cleric. While the contest hasn't taken off, that dude is available in theory as a follower, and can lay down a stupid amount of battlefield control for a level one character. Excerpted for ease: Whinny de'Pooh Level 1 human Cloistered Cleric No Deity Undeath Domain Plant Domain Knowledge Domain 2 flaws Vulnerable Inattentive 5 feats at start. Divine MetaMagic[Explosive Spell] Extra Turning Explosive Spell Animal Devotion Bonus from Undeath Domain: Extra Turning Explosive Entangling is basically his gimmick, but he has some other options. Explosive spell + entangling means that every time someone fails a save and gets entangled, they also get blown to closest edge of the 40 ft radius entanglement zone. This does 4d6 damage which is respectable for a "non-damage" spell at level 1. Technically, they remain entangled, but I think that's a stretch. Oh and he can fly as a level one character. I feel this is decent.
#10 flawless_p Mar 21, 2009 18:09:58	I treat Leadership as the player having two PC's, I also make him explain why the cohort acts the way it does, and I require a backstory. Another thing I require from followers is that they can only be NPC classes and the player doesnt take direct control over their actions I play the followers as extremely friendly npcs
#11 phoenix00 Mar 21, 2009 20:56:42	by the players but the dm can control them at times if it fits the personality of the cohort. They aren't pcs after all.
#12 malosasalist Mar 21, 2009 21:47:20	nevermind
#13 dr_rocktopus Mar 21, 2009 22:19:42	I'm curious, is that a scrubbed post of some sort of expression of frustration with our machinations?
#14 malosasalist Mar 21, 2009 22:31:39	No, I asked a dumb question that I immediately revoked. Hah! Sorry. I appreciate the responses!
#15 dr_rocktopus Mar 21, 2009 22:46:15	Okay, I just worry because I often feel that I am a prickly quillbeast, perhaps unfit for consumption even via BBS. After all, the rules aren't clear on if a BBS grants line of effect.
#16 Grumman Mar 22, 2009 2:29:57	Is there any way to make level 1 followers effective? Level 1 Kobolds with Skill Focus (Craft[trapmaking]) and 4 levels in Craft[trapmaking] and Profession[mining]?
#17 immolate Mar 22, 2009 10:28:11	It seems from the OP's question that they are asking more what the "rule" is rather than what we all like to do as DMs. I think that, clearly, the DM has complete control of all NPCs, which includes any cohorts, companions and followers of yours. Most DMs will allow you to "run" your vassals and companions to some extent, but unless they are mindless animated dead, they are likely to have a mind (and therefore a will) of their own. So if you yourself do something, or ask a follower/minion to do something that runs counter to their deeply-held beliefs, they are probably going to balk. You may be able to compel them to do it/go along with it in spite of their personal wishes, but doing so has a cost and will eventually put you and your minion in direct conflict. A brave and honest minion will confront you about it, but a craven minion will do something sneaky like stab you in the back or run away. It is that "reality" that requires the DM to retain at least veto-level control over your followers.
#18 toryn Mar 22, 2009 18:59:23	In my sig, there's a link to my angry little cleric. While the contest hasn't taken off, that dude is available in theory as a follower, and can lay down a stupid amount of battlefield control for a level one character. Excerpted for ease: Whinny de'Pooh Level 1 human Cloistered Cleric No Deity Undeath Domain Plant Domain Knowledge Domain 2 flaws Vulnerable Inattentive 5 feats at start. Divine MetaMagic[Explosive Spell] Extra Turning Explosive Spell Animal Devotion Bonus from Undeath Domain: Extra Turning Explosive Entangling is basically his gimmick, but he has some other options. Explosive spell + entangling means that every time someone fails a save and gets entangled, they also get blown to closest edge of the 40 ft radius entanglement zone. This does 4d6 damage which is respectable for a "non-damage" spell at level 1. Technically, they remain entangled, but I think that's a stretch. Oh and he can fly as a level one character. I feel this is decent. That....is....AWESOME!!! Have a cookie.
#19 deathlessjuan Mar 23, 2009 14:09:43	I am 99% sure that a cohort is controlled by the player, NOT the DM, as I have seen, and responded to, this same type of question in the past. This information is found in the DMG, under the leadership information. I am away from my books for the next few hours and can't point to the specific page.
#20 pallatine Mar 23, 2009 14:22:49	In my sig, there's a link to my angry little cleric. While the contest hasn't taken off, that dude is available in theory as a follower, and can lay down a stupid amount of battlefield control for a level one character. Excerpted for ease: Whinny de'Pooh Level 1 human Cloistered Cleric I would just like to point out that in the Epic Level Handbook (at least I think it was there) under Epic Leadership, it points out that followers are generally warriors. Adepts and Experts count as followers 2 levels higher and actual Classes are 3 levels higher. So really this is a 4th level follower.
#21 phaedrusxy Mar 23, 2009 14:37:39	Here is a good (but archived...) thread on optimizing followers: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-763024
#22 pithica Mar 23, 2009 14:38:48	I am 99% sure that a cohort is controlled by the player, NOT the DM, as I have seen, and responded to, this same type of question in the past. This information is found in the DMG, under the leadership information. I am away from my books for the next few hours and can't point to the specific page. Cohorts are NPC's. NPC is by definition, a non-player character, and therefore not under the control of a player. Now, the last line of their description, on page 104, says something like, 'they may voice an opinion every now and then, but for the most part they do as they are told.' Most DM's, I think, therefore cut out the middleman, and just let the player run them, unless they drift into the realm of the patently absurd. But, at the end of the day, they are NPC's and by RAW, they are under the control of the DM, and not the player. He or She gets to decide where, when, and how to interject that 'for the most part' clause, not the player.
#23 deathlessjuan Mar 23, 2009 16:14:33	Cohorts are NPC's. NPC is by definition, a non-player character, and therefore not under the control of a player. Now, the last line of their description, on page 104, says something like, 'they may voice an opinion every now and then, but for the most part they do as they are told.' Most DM's, I think, therefore cut out the middleman, and just let the player run them, unless they drift into the realm of the patently absurd. But, at the end of the day, they are NPC's and by RAW, they are under the control of the DM, and not the player. He or She gets to decide where, when, and how to interject that 'for the most part' clause, not the player. Hmmm, well now. Looks like I have a bit of reading to do when I get home tonight. I'm pretty sure I can find the passage that states the cohort is controlled by the player. Expect a post from me in about ... 4 hours. If, in fact, the cohorts are controlled by the PC, that makes them player character, not NPCs. Anyways, I'll be back with something...
#24 deathlessjuan Mar 23, 2009 19:49:09	*waltzes back into the thread, slaps DMG on the table. He eyes the rest of the group with a mischievous smile on his face and turns the page to 106. Pauses dramatically for a moment and then starts talking* As we see here, the answer to the rules is not always in plain site and some digging is to be expected to find some answers. Let us peer into the 'PC as Leaders' section, under Attracting Cohorts. Now, if you are with me, look at the fourth sentence in the paragraph.... I have bolded the important parts. A cohort is effectively another PC in the party under that player's control, one who share of XP, treasure, and spotlight time is bound to take something away from the other players' characters Now it is true that the DM determines the aspects of the cohort, though the player may attempt to gain a particular race, class and alignment. DMs should use the NPC wealth charts to outfit the cohort (ie, not the player) when it first arrives. *closes book and shrugs nonchalantly* Again, the truth is set forth. Woe be to the disbelievers.
#25 pithica Mar 24, 2009 8:32:22	Ummm...could you cite page numbers and paragraphs for reference, please... Because on page 104, in the chapter titled 'Non Player Characters' of the DMG, under the section cohorts, it says... They are hired by or seek out a PC or PC's, and they work out a deal agreeable to both parties sot that the NPC works for the characters. and later... Cohorts earn experience points, but not a the same rate as player characters Implying that they are not, well, player characters. Even the line you quote (which comes later in the same chapter, still titled 'non-player characters'), is out of context found on page 106, under 'attracting cohorts'... A character of 6th level or higher can start attracting cohorts (see page 104) and followers (see page 105) by taking the Leadership feat (see below). Unlike other feats, this one depends heavily on the social setting of the campaign, the actual location of the PC, and the group dynamics. You're free to disallow this feat if it would disrupt the campaign. Be sure to consider the effect of a PC having a cohort. A cohort is effectively another PC in the party under that player's control, one who...snip The paragraph in question is a warning to DM's about the effects a cohort has on play, and not a statement of rules. The actual rules are on page 104, as referenced at the start of the paragraph, and those rules are that the cohort is an NPC. As I said earlier, though, it does go on to say (after clasifying them as NPC's)... Cohorts are people who take on a subservient role. Cohorts are ot leaders. They might voice an opinion now and again, but for the most part, they do as they're told. Which is why, I think, the vast majority of DM's are perfectly within the rules to allow their players to control the cohort the (vast) majority (if not all) of the time. But, they are not PC's. They are NPC's. Which is also why, later, it says... The DM determines the Details of the Cohort. Along with your already stated facts about them using NPC wealth and gear. It seems obvious to me that they're NPC's with special rules governing their behavior, much the same way a charmed or dominated mob is, and not PC's. I'd link all this in the SRD, but I honestly don't have time to look for it at the moment, and can never find any of the esoteric stuff from the DMG when I look.
#26 reis Mar 24, 2009 8:58:49	bottom line is, the DM runs the game and interprets how the rules are played in that game. It would be an extreme case for the DM to rule that a Cohort can't act in the fashion his leader wishes but, if campaign balance or the continuity of the storyline is threatened, the DM has the responsibility to take whatever action is necessary to correct that problem. Now, your recourse if you don't like it is to leave the campaign and find a new DM and possibly convince the other players to do the same. But the rules make it clear that the DM has the option to ignore any rules as he sees fit (especially optional rules like leadership) so this whole discussion seems a bit silly given that within the context of the game, his word is law.
#27 deathlessjuan Mar 24, 2009 14:50:53	I really don't see the reason why there needs to be page citing. It clearly states that the cohort is under the player's control. A cohort is effectively another PC in the party under that player's control It doesn't matter that the DM determines the aspects of the cohort or the items in which it carries. Once the DM 'allows' the cohort into the game, it is under the player's control. We all know that a DM can do whatever he wants depending on the situation, but its right there, in black and white. Under the player's control. Cohorts earn experience points, but not a the same rate as player characters NPCs do NOT gain EXP. If someone, in fact, gains EXP, they are not an NPC. Followers do not gain EXP and they are treated as NPCs. Hirelings do not gain EXP and are treated as NPCs. RAW, the cohort is under a player's control. Unless you point out a passage that specifically states that a cohort is an 'NPC' or directly under the control of the DM, the passage can not be disputed. Houserule it if you wish. A cohort is effectively another PC in the party under that player's control, one who share of XP, treasure, and spotlight time is bound to take something away from the other players' characters.
#28 pithica Mar 24, 2009 16:09:10	RAW, the cohort is under a player's control. Unless you point out a passage that specifically states that a cohort is an 'NPC' or directly under the control of the DM, the passage can not be disputed. Houserule it if you wish. Umm...looks up... Because on page 104, in the chapter titled 'Non Player Characters' of the DMG, under the section cohorts, it says... Quote: They are hired by or seek out a PC or PC's, and they work out a deal agreeable to both parties so that the NPC works for the characters. and later... I already quoted where it says they are an NPC. And yes, I can dispute your line from the DMG. I already quoted the entire block of text you did, in context. The sentence you're quoting is a warning to DM's about the effects a cohort has on a campaign. The paragraph it's contained in references page 104 for the actual rules on cohorts. The sentence says, by the way, that it's effectively an extra PC under the players control, or if you hadn't failed reading comprehension, that it's 'like' or 'similar to' a player having an extra PC under their control, but 'like' is not the same as 'is'. By RAW, cohorts are NPC's that almost always follow the orders of a PC (or group of PC's). Seriously, read page 104, the page the beginning of your quoted paragraph references for the rules on cohorts, or just look up, I already quoted it for you.
#29 deathlessjuan Mar 24, 2009 17:43:03	if you hadn't failed reading comprehension Personal attacks or insults towards someone's intelligence are uncalled for. Keep them to yourself. Now, after rereading that particular entry, I agree with you up to a point. A cohort is an NPC up until it strikes the deal with the player, completely controlled by the DM. However, it can not be disputed that it is the player that controls the character from then on (see the passage I quoted repeatedly). However you define PC, player character or player controlled, makes no difference. NPC or not, the cohort is controlled by the player. The DM has free reign to control anyone, at anytime, because he is the DM. And I believe, this is exactly what the OP asked in the first place.
#30 pithica Mar 24, 2009 19:38:35	However, it can not be disputed that it is the player that controls the character from then on (see the passage I quoted repeatedly). No, as you seem to keep ignoring me when I say it, the sentence you keep quoting has nothing to do with the rules of a cohort. In context, I.E. as it reads in relation to the text around it, it is a warning to DM's about allowing the feat in the first place, as it's effects can be far reaching on a campaign. In context, the sentence is saying allowing cohorts is like letting them have a second PC, and you should be aware of the effects on a game this will have. The actual rule about how cohorts behave is found on page 104, as I've said twice before, now, where it defines them as an NPC that follows the orders of a PC, for the most part. This is not the same thing as a PC. The NPC can't read the PC's mind (unless it has that ability), nor does it necessarily deviate from it's alignment (which is why the player get's to pick that). If you, or anyone else wants to run it as a second PC when you DM, this is well and good, and it's how I run it, and how I recommend running it. But RAW, it's an NPC, with special rules governing their behaviour, just like Followers and Hirelings are (and they, also, get to get ordered around by the PC(s)) but that doesn't make them PC's.
#31 dr_rocktopus Mar 26, 2009 0:38:36	::asbestos suit!:: I would just like to point out that in the Epic Level Handbook (at least I think it was there) under Epic Leadership, it points out that followers are generally warriors. Adepts and Experts count as followers 2 levels higher and actual Classes are 3 levels higher. So really this is a 4th level follower. Having re-read repeatedly the information available in the OGL SRD, there is no indication of this. If you can find a citation, I'd love to know, but as it stands I'm not sure this tracks as the ELH isn't normally a source for lower level games. That said, this sounds right\familiar, so maybe I'm wrong.
#32 pallatine Mar 26, 2009 10:32:20	::asbestos suit!:: Having re-read repeatedly the information available in the OGL SRD, there is no indication of this. If you can find a citation, I'd love to know, but as it stands I'm not sure this tracks as the ELH isn't normally a source for lower level games. That said, this sounds right\familiar, so maybe I'm wrong. I wasn't flaming you! Just saying something that you probably never noticed before. I certainly never would have if I hadn't just decided to try and use a shadow dragon as a mount/cohort in an epic campaign I'm in lol. I'll look when I'm home and near my books. To be fair - I don't see it on the SRD either.
#33 dr_rocktopus Mar 26, 2009 13:34:03	I actually prefer the SRD to the PHB, and in case of wording differences, will side with the OGL content. :: laughing :: weird, I know. I was more terrified of just rejoining this thread in any fashion.
#34 pithica Mar 26, 2009 13:52:12	Sorry about that...I swear, "failed at reading comprehension" was meant as "you missed something" and not as "you failed 1st grade reading"...I didn't catch that it could be construed as a personal attack until after it was pointed out.
#35 dr_rocktopus Mar 26, 2009 13:53:12	I construed your mom as a personal attack! ;)
#36 pithica Mar 26, 2009 14:04:57	It is against my religion to reply to a post with just lol, otherwise, I would do so.
#37 dr_rocktopus Mar 26, 2009 14:09:46	It's okay, I understand that not everyone can be straight lawlin'.
#38 fnord72 Mar 26, 2009 14:45:02	What is a cohort? On one page, a cohort is an NPC hired by the group. On another page, a cohort is a PC acquired through the Leadership feat. I have a character with several cohorts. One is "free" and earns exp and gets a PC share of treaure found under my character's leadership feat. The other cohorts receive a wage, don't get exp, and are under greater control by my DM (who still mostly lets me play them anyway). The difference between a cohort and a follower? Followers are free under leadership and generally don't need to be paid a wage, but can actually be used to earn wages. That same character has hired a group of mercenary fighters to protect his keep while he is off fighting. These are higher level than the followers my character has from Leadership, and are more likely to do a better job of protecting that keep. Of course they also cost a lot to employ. Fortunately I have a lot fo followers tilling fields and crafting to pay for those cohorts...
#39 pithica Mar 26, 2009 15:22:25	On another page, a cohort is a PC acquired through the Leadership feat. No, it's not... Here, maybe an analogy of what the DMG is saying will help you (and others) understand. Greg has Green eyes, but, under most conditions they look blue. People with blue eyes can negatively impact the game. Since Greg effectively has blue eyes, you should always take consideration when allowing Greg to play. What color are Greg's Eyes? I, and others, are saying they're green, but since they look blue, it's okay to houserule they're blue. You, and others, are quoting the beginning of that last sentence out of context and saying they're blue. or... Cohorts are NPC's, but, under most conditions they follow the orders of a PC, and take a share of the XP and treasure like a PC. This is effectively the same as if that player had two PC's under their control. Since adding another PC could negatively impact the game, and Cohorts work like second PC's you should take consideration before allowing them. Is a Cohort an NPC or a PC? I, and others, are saying it's an NPC that acts in many ways like a PC, so it's okay to houserule it as 'close enough'. You, and others, are taking that second sentence out of context and saying that it's an extra PC under the players control. Nowhere in the section on Cohorts on page 104 are they described as being PC's. Just like the Allies, Followers, and Hirelings, they are all classified as NPC's, and therefore, the domain of the DM. Just like Allies, they take a share of treasure and xp if they go adventuring with the group. Just like Followers and Hirelings, they generally follow the orders of a PC. The line on page 106 is referring to their effect (hence the word effectively) on a campaign, not the rules governing their behaviour. Seriously, read the entire paragraph that sentence is in. Someone?...Anyone?
#40 pallatine Mar 26, 2009 17:54:49	Someone?...Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anywho - as promised (I believe that ELH content is part of the OGL now, but if not I'll remove this!) Show Optional Rule: Exceptional Followers Through followers are normally warriors, experts, or commoners, your DM might allow you to have characters of other classes as followers. If you use this optional rule, adept or aristocrat followers count as followers of two levels higher than their actual character level. A follower with any levels in a PC class counts as a follower three levels higher than his character level. A follow with any levels in a prestige class counts as a follower five levels higher than his character level. This reflects the fact that such characters are rarely followers and are much more likely to be unique characters in their own right.