1) Repel Aberration (ECS): It functions exactly like turning, using the turn/rebuke table for clerics, and even specifically states that Extra Turning applies to it. Can it be used to power DMM?
2) Illumian Sigils (RoD): The naenhoon Illumian word allows you to spend turn attempts to apply metamagic feats that you know to a spell you cast twice per day, and it costs one less attempt per use than DMM does. If an Illumian cleric (or druid, if the answer to number one is "yes") uses this, is it even necessary to have DMM? Are you really going to be able to Persist more than two spells/day?
3) Wild Shape: Says that it works like a polymorph, except for being more limited on creatures. The description for sigils says that they work "if the alternate form can use supernatural abilities" and specifically says that they work when polymorphed. Does this mean that they can be used when wildshaped? And can a druid repel aberrations (like a cleric turns undead) while wildshaped?
If you CAN Persist more then two spells per day, is there any reason why you would NOT?
I believe most DMM Persist cleric buids START with two spells (Divine Favor, Divine Might) and later ladle on things like Mass Lesser Vigor, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and so forth.
AFAIK, all alternate forms of turning add additional turn attempts to fuel DMM.
===Aelryinth
I have a follow up question.
If you CAN Persist more then two spells per day, is there any reason why you would NOT?
Absolutely not.
But Persist adds... six levels to the spell? How many turn attempts can you really get? An Illumian can do it twice more than a human.
I believe most DMM Persist cleric buids START with two spells (Divine Favor, Divine Might) and later ladle on things like Mass Lesser Vigor, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and so forth.
AFAIK, all alternate forms of turning add additional turn attempts to fuel DMM.
===Aelryinth
That's what I was hoping to hear!
If you have the feats, you'd simply buy Efficient Metamagic: Persistent spell, and reduce the cost by 1 for all your metamagic feats...and if you want to do this more then twice a day, that's exactly what you are going to do.
Also note that as you level up, you can Persist Spells without DMM. DMM is just so you can do it EARLY...and on higher level spells. Thus, Efficient Metamagic again is more useful in the long run.
Thus, in the long run, being human to pick up the MM feats and efficient Metamagic is more useful then being an Illumian.
==Aelryinth
AFAIK, all alternate forms of turning add additional turn attempts to fuel DMM.
Divine Metamagic only ever mentions using turn or rebuke undead attempt. Other types of turning cannot be substituted unless the ability permits it.
For example, a cleric with the Fire domain cannot use their ability to turn water creatures or rebuke fire creatures to fuel most divine feats, which require you to spend turn undead or rebuke undead attempts. Equally, turn undead and rebuke undead cannot be used to power those feats that require a different form of turning (like Divine Damage Reduction, which uses rebuke earth attempts), and there are some divine feats that specifically require one or the other. For example, Profane Lifeleech can only be powered by rebuke undead attempts (not turn undead attempts).
If you have the feats, you'd simply buy Efficient Metamagic: Persistent spell, and reduce the cost by 1 for all your metamagic feats...and if you want to do this more then twice a day, that's exactly what you are going to do.
Do you mean Practical Metamagic?
AFAIK, all alternate forms of turning add additional turn attempts to fuel DMM.
Divine Metamagic only ever mentions using turn or rebuke undead attempt. Other types of turning cannot be substituted unless the ability permits it.
For example, a cleric with the Fire domain cannot use their ability to turn water creatures or rebuke fire creatures to fuel most divine feats, which require you to spend turn undead or rebuke undead attempts. Equally, turn undead and rebuke undead cannot be used to power those feats that require a different form of turning (like Divine Damage Reduction, which uses rebuke earth attempts), and there are some divine feats that specifically require one or the other. For example, Profane Lifeleech can only be powered by rebuke undead attempts (not turn undead attempts).If you have the feats, you'd simply buy Efficient Metamagic: Persistent spell, and reduce the cost by 1 for all your metamagic feats...and if you want to do this more then twice a day, that's exactly what you are going to do.
Do you mean Practical Metamagic?
The feat's had at least two names in various iterations, so...sure, I meant Practical Metamagic, sure sure.
As long as it reduces the total cost of a specific MM feat by 1, to a minimum of 1, that's what I meant.
==Aelryinth
Perhaps, but since turning an elemental requires being able to turn undead, being able to do so means that you will be able to power a divine feat. The three are commutitatively equivalent, in posh speak, which is to say that if you can do one you can do the other three instead (obviously only with the domain and feat(s)) and if you can't do one, you can't do any of them.
The elemental turning types do not require that you be able to turn or rebuke undead. You could trade your turn/rebuke undead for an alternative class feature like divine counterspell and still be perfectly capable of turning or rebuking those elementals based solely on your domain abilities. The elemental turning abilities do not directly depend on turn/rebuke undead in any way.
But that's not really important, since it's only the energy from turning or rebuking undead that you can use to fuel Divine Metamagic (which is the big and important divine feat in this case). It doesn't make any difference whether or not you need turn/rebuke undead for elemental turning/rebuking when you can still only use the undead version to power the feat.
The feat's had at least two names in various iterations, so...sure, I meant Practical Metamagic, sure sure.
Keeping on top of the right name just makes it a lot easier to find when you go looking for the details or start searching for information to which it relates.
The elemental turning types do not require that you be able to turn or rebuke undead.
Ack you're right, I must not have read the bit which grants you the uses per day of elemental turning/rebuking; that makes it clear that you get those uses in addition to the normal turn uses. Since all things which require Turn Undead mention the Undead, those clearly can't be used to power them. As you say, it doesn't really make any difference.