Main rules are:
2M gp, no crafting
5 LA for free on top of the 20 levels
Allowed books: Core+Completes+MM2+MM3+MIC+SpC+BOED+Frost
My idea is playing a saint (BoED) woodling (MM3) anthro-bat druid. That pumps up my WIS, my AC and gives me plant immunities (immunity to mind affecting spells is golden).
Another idea I was playing with is an half-celestial druid... mainly for the spell resistance (30).
In any case I am looking for the solutions to the following problems:
- Greater dispels: I am buying a few slotless ring of counterspells... is that enough? I will also pump my CL as much as I can (beads of karma, ankh of ascension, orange ioun stone)
- MDJ: I will buy a deck of many things hoping for an auto-win, but I would like to avoid the effect alltogether, if possible... how?
- Anti-magic fields: in such an high powered game, I think that those will be everywhere. And while I have a touch AC of 70 in my natural form, it would be nice to have a workaround for that. Knowing my opponent, he will kill my animal companion before having this up.
- SR25, DR 32/-, FH64, that's apparently the characteristics of what I am going to fight (plus casting as a sorcerer 20 - but no wish or time stop... hopefully). How can I deal consistent damage to such a monster? Or should I focus on save-or-die/suck? He will probably have an anti-magic field up as well...
- 9th level arcane spells: can I effectively defend from those without SR in any way?
The more I think about it the more I think that losing all the saint goodies (perma-magic circle vs evil, WIS to AC, various energy immunities that are replicable with spells) and woodling goodies (plant immunities) for SR 30 is a good idea.
Shameless self bump
Lol I will back you up because I was considering bumping my own post earlier, but fortunately someone stepped in for me. I am not a professional optimizer like most of these guys, but my dos centos are SR is pretty much where it is at I mean it affects most spells and helps a lot in high level encounters in my experience. Of course it's effectiveness is probably reduced if you are going against another PC who is not a caster. Sorry for my lack of knowledgeable help
Unfortunately everything you posted is out of the allowed sources. My fault, again.
The build is pretty much set in stone, especially because it is impossible to fiind a better one ;)
Finally, I realized taht shapechanging into a pit fiend gives me SR32 and into a will o wisp complete immunity to magic, so SR is not an issue any more.
I have yet to find a way to kill that monster though... hp damage is out of question due to DR/FH, all the save or dies (in my sources) allow for FOR saves and he will have that up to the wazoo.... is there a good druid WILL save or die? Otherwise I will have to rely on enveloping cocoon and baleful polymorph. Is there a way to deal CON damage with a druid besides poison (he is immune)?
At least I know that I can keep him grappled/pinned as long as it takes....
1) Simply do not deal HP damage and focus on save or die/ ability damage (but how to deal ability damage with a druid? Poison is out of question, at ECL 20 everybody and their mum are immune)
2) Use spells that deal damage: that takes care of DR but not of FH
3) A force composite longbow in pit fiend form - again, that bypasses DR but not Fast Healing
I guess that what I am looking for is a way to stop fast healing... is that possible?
Example: Assay Spell Resistance (SC). If he's aware of it, your SR is meaningless. If not, it could be useful. Of course, 'could' is not enough - drop the SR.
Spells that stop or bypass FH are... arcane. See Cursed Blade (SC) or Graymantle (SC).
Honestly, if he was a wizard you'd be toast. If he's a sorcerer you may have a chance since he'll have some vulnerabilities - but it's not easy to know in advance which.
Forget about HP damage if his character is truly legal. Enveloping cocoon is probably your best bet, but search for the "Save-or-die" thread in the Handy Links. I also like Murderous Mist (SC) because once cretures are blind they're not so impressive.
Against MDJs, buy contingent spells (CA). For AMFs, it's again a question of experience: he can't use it on himself as is. He has to either shape it (Archmage) or cast it on a Familiar (who is then vulnerable).
What about investing in UMD and getting 2 scrolls of MDJ yourself ?
Just a little background: that char is an homebrew race that gets 2*CON SCORE as DR /- and 3*CON SCORE as FH. Yes, crazy, especially because that means that he keeps all that in an AMF. He is also a socerer 20.
Yes, I know that is stupid, still I would like to show him the superiority of the druid, even to stupid homebrew races.
I am aware that celerity/time stop is a winner, but apparently he didn't get time stop as a known spell (he is not an optimizer).
I am not afraid for my character. Fully buffed he is invulnerable to anything and since MDJ is banned, there is no way for him to get me. AMF is actually good for him since that race is also a melee monster (low-ish AC, but a lot of damage).
I was thinking to get my summons/animal companion/spiritjaw grapple/pin him and then drain his levels/abilities by shapechanging into a spectre/greater shadow but that does not work either: that stupid race is also immune to ability drain/damage and energy drain
So I am left with:
- just inflicting more damage than he can heal (my super-buffed colossal dire elephant would actually be able to inflict about 35 damage/round AFTER DR, so I need to inflict about 75 more (after DR, sigh) to slowly kill him). That is tough even as a force bow (bypasses DR) using super-buffed Titan
- Save or dies. Yes, that is viable, even if if is tough. I can find only FOR save or dies, but that is not too bad against an arcane caster (even if he has 34 CON... sigh). I am betting on cast in stone (SC, SR=NO).
Did I miss anything? I would love to find a way to block his FH (or get my animal companion to bypass DR/-... actually this would be best, my animal companion can kill him in 1 round if he can bypass his DR)
With BoED in, you could also go for a Bow of the Solars and wait for him to roll a 1 - is he immune to death effects ?
That's really one of the most pointless challenges I've ever seen, though. Stupid race vs stupid template (Saint) + Shapechange + whatever else you're using. Doesn't seem to have much to do with a druid.
In any case I tought about getting my animal companion/summons to grapple him and then shapechange into a balor and wait to roll a 20 with the vorpal longsword. Yes, this is an option... but I am quite sure that he will find a way to have freedom of movement on. Anyhow, he is not immune to death effects, AFAIK
I am afraid of investing too much money in metamagic rods. If I buy all the rods that you listed down there I won't have money for much else. In any case you bet that I am going to burn some incense of meditation before memorizing spells, so that they are all auto-maximized.....
Wait, you may be on something there...
Actually deadfall + quickened (via rod) deadfall (all maximized via incense) would be 240 damage/round no save/SR... I could kill him in 2 rounds.
Make it 3 assuming that he pulls some trick (like something to heal himself)
That means that I am going to burn 6 level 8 slots (deadfall). Since I have 7 level 8 and 7 level 9 slots, it IS doable. And with just 1 rod (metamagic quicken, greater)
Mumble, mumble.....
Shoot! If I only could take arcane thesis I could have one-shotted him (with an arcane thesis empowered maximized (incense) deadfall + a quickened (rod) arcane thesis empowered maximized (incense) deadfall). Can you use two rods on the same spell? And can you use the same rod twice in your turn (once on a spell, once on a quickened spell)? I guess not...
Wait...
If you use the belt of battle to get an extra full round action, can you use a swift action too (beside the one that you used to activate the belt)?
In any case I tought about getting my animal companion/summons to grapple him and then shapechange into a balor and wait to roll a 20 with the vorpal longsword.
A small hijack here:
I know that you gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your new form - but do you also get the whip and sword of a balor? The trumpet of a trumpet archon? The mace of an astral deva?
Only 1 rod per spell, but using a rod twice per round is ok. Take Empower as a feat and use it. For Arcane Thesis you just need to dip an arcane class IIRC.
No extra swift action.
Then he has to deal with the 'problem' he created for you, except of course that yours is dispellable. Meanwhile you've hopefully figured out a way to do enough damage to him to take him out. Your biggest issue will be his save or die spells, and getting dispelled, which you already realize is a large issue regardless with all the buffs you are going to use.
So I am not worried about defenses, just offense.
Thanks Omen for the clarifications
Anauroch, in general you DON'T get the weapons, but the Balor's case is special since the sword is listed as SU. So you DO get the sword... but you don't get the whip, for example.
Example: Maw of Chaos (SC). Though amusingly you are immune when in your Balor shape. But then other spells can get you.
Against a Will-o-Wisp: Reciprocical Gyre (SC) should kill you fast given that you presumably have tons of buffs.
A more complicated one: Forcecage+Energy Transformation Field is an inescapable trap if you can't cast Disjunction/Wish/Miracle or have an (Ex) teleport.
He could use Dispels other than Greater Dispel to work around your rings - Reaving Dispel is my favorite.
And so on...
You are never immune to everything - except if you are Pun-Pun, of course.
Example: Maw of Chaos (SC). Though amusingly you are immune when in your Balor shape. But then other spells can get you.
Against a Will-o-Wisp: Reciprocical Gyre (SC) should kill you fast given that you presumably have tons of buffs.
A more complicated one: Forcecage+Energy Transformation Field is an inescapable trap if you can't cast Disjunction/Wish/Miracle or have an (Ex) teleport.
He could use Dispels other than Greater Dispel to work around your rings - Reaving Dispel is my favorite.
And so on...
Of course I am not immune to everything, but my defenses are super-good, I have to say.
Maw of chaos is not a big deal at all. It allows SR, I am immune as a balor, as you said, and the amount of damage inflicted is not that much, considering that there is no way that I am going to fail my will save (my wisdom is in the high 50s).
Recyprocal gyre is dangerous, but meh... it would inflict about 50-60 damage (again, there is no way that I am going to fail my will save). I have about 350 hp when buffed.
Forcecage+energy trans field does not work, since if you cast the field first, the forcecage would get absorbed. If you cast the forcecage first, the field does not get inside (no line of effect).
Forcecage is dangerous by itself but can only buy him time and in any case I have plenty of ways around it (rod of cancellation, or my favourite: just be too big to fit in. Yes, if you are taller than 20' the spell does not work.... and a titan is 25')
Reaving dispel is the only real threat among the ones you listed. Yes, that would be bad. I am casting my key buffs at CL 29 so I hope he would miss some.
Finally, considering that his stupid race would be at least +10 LA, he is about an ECL 30 character vs my ECL 20, so he should win. I am counting on the fact that he will not be as optimized as I am and that he will not play as smart as I will. If he does, I am toast. Nobody can take a CR 30 with an ECL 20 character, even if that character is a druid.
I any case I am immune to that as a will-o-wisp, so it is a non-issue.
I will get 2-3 rings of improved counterspell (reaving dispel) and a rod of cancellation, so he is back to square zero.
You use a "barred cage" Forcecage. The real combo is Rod-quickened Disjunction + Rod-maximized Time Stop -> Forcecage+ETF... done.
Expensive but you can kill creatures way above your CR that way.
I'm not saying your opponent is not ridiculous - he is. I'm simply showing why in a ridiculously optimized wizard vs ridiculously optimized druid duel at level 20 I'd put my money on the wiz. Since your friend is not optimizing you should have little trouble winning.
Rings of Greater Counterspells (MIC) are also limited to 6th level spells.
But if he's not immune to stunning, just use the Dust and then play videogames together...
What Tshern said. Reciprocical Gyre would be metamagicked too.
You use a "barred cage" Forcecage. The real combo is Rod-quickened Disjunction + Rod-maximized Time Stop -> Forcecage+ETF... done.
Expensive but you can kill creatures way above your CR that way.
I'm not saying your opponent is not ridiculous - he is. I'm simply showing why in a ridiculously optimized wizard vs ridiculously optimized druid duel at level 20 I'd put my money on the wiz. Since your friend is not optimizing you should have little trouble winning.
Rings of Greater Counterspells (MIC) are also limited to 6th level spells.
But if he's not immune to stunning, just use the Dust and then play videogames together...
I would put my money on druid, but anyhow, going back to the current situation.
- I already showed you that it is ridiculously easy to avoid forcecage. You CANNOT forcecage a titan, fullstop. He is IMMUNE (too big)
- MDJ is banned
- Timestop exists, but he is a sorcere and he doesn't know it
- Recyprocal gyre, even empowered and maximized would not go above the 172 damage/round that I can recover with hydra's FH and an Heal. My staff of life has 50 charges... guess who is going to finish spells first? Also while you are focusing all your energy on damaging me and I am focusing all my energy in healing (thus we are stalled) my animal companion is pummeling you for about 300 damage/round (before DR).
So everything you mentioned in the first half of your post is not relevant or not effective.
- Thanks for the info about the rings. Reaving Dispel is still a big problem then. Any idea on how to solve that?
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I thought about beholder and anti-magic ray, but what can stop him from moving out of the ray and then casting?
The only thing that I can think about is preparing an action to redirect the ray if he moves. This would stop him from doing anything (and me too) and leave my animal companion vs him melee... unfortunately, because of his stupid FH and DR he would eventually win...
I would put my money on druid, but anyhow, going back to the current situation.
Let's poke some holes!
- I already showed you that it is ridiculously easy to avoid forcecage. You CANNOT forcecage a titan, fullstop. He is IMMUNE (too big)
Using Walls of Force might do it.
- MDJ is banned
Some sanity on your DM's behalf right here.
- Timestop exists, but he is a sorcere and he doesn't know it
Scrolls, staves and whatnot. Are you certain you know his full build?
- Recyprocal gyre, even empowered and maximized would not go above the 172 damage/round that I can recover with hydra's FH and an Heal.
Add in a Sudden Maximized and rod Empowered Maw of chaos. And Reaving dispels. And 50 Simulacra are tossing the same things right add you.
My staff of life has 50 charges... guess who is going to finish spells first? Also while you are focusing all your energy on damaging me and I am focusing all my energy in healing (thus we are stalled) my animal companion is pummeling you for about 300 damage/round (before DR).
Phantasmal thief --> no more staff of life for you. And if you seriously consider that a well-played Sorcerer is going to be bothered by your animal companion, then you are wrong. Dead plain wrong.
So everything you mentioned in the first half of your post is not relevant or not effective.
Just like I pointed out.
- Thanks for the info about the rings. Reaving Dispel is still a big problem then. Any idea on how to solve that?
Buy Contingencies against it.
Btw, I was getting into more general considerations when I went into Forcecage & co.
I'm not saying your opponent is not ridiculous - he is. I'm simply showing why in a ridiculously optimized wizard vs ridiculously optimized druid duel at level 20 I'd put my money on the wiz. Since your friend is not optimizing you should have little trouble winning.
That part still stands, but I'm trying to educate the audience if you will.
MDJ prevents you being a Titan when it's available.
Your Animal Companion ? One Dominate Monster later and you are fighting it.