I like Unusual Builds. I like the swift hunter because it is the only way that the archer in the party can come close to keeping up with The damage output of the Tome of Battle classes. But Swift Hunter has been done. Its kindof tired. I wanted something new. With WOTC not producing any more material for 3.5, ive seen alot of players open up to material they once ignored, namely, Dragon Magazine, so i reread through all my old dragons to try and familiarize myself with their material Again. Meanwhile i had some other mechanical ideas clunking around in my head, and they combined in a new way to give rise to a build im PRETTY SURE works. Im sure someone will argue.
This Thread is about a New Twist on a Build most everyone is familiar with. Its a ranged Swift Hunter Build that uses a little known Variant Fighter class from Dragon Magazine Issue 310, called the Targetteer. The small Dip in that Class is what really makes this Build unique, as well as its unique method for triggering skirmish and improved skirmish. Anyway, Read the Build.
Race: Raptoran (Races of the Wild)
I know, sounds crazy right? But its not. And Heres why:
The 50ft Step
The 50ft step is the trigger method that this build will be using for skirmish. It requires that the player play a Raptoran, and that he be Flying, or descending and in midair. Generally youll want to be about 20 ft up. Before i explain how it works, here are the basics:
“Gliding – may move forward 20’ for each 5’he/she descends. Affective “flying” speed is 40 with Average maneuverability. Also, falling damage is negated by gliding. May not be carrying more than a Light load.” -Races of the Wild, Raptoran Race Pg.69
“Down Speed: A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed.” -Rules Compendium Pg.92
“You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.”-Players Handbook Pg.144
A Raptoran may use its glide to take a 5ft step downward, while flying, which he does at double speed, moving 10ft and triggering Skirmish. Because of how his Glide works, the Raptoran may choose to move 20ft forward for each of the five feet he descends, Triggering Improved Skirmish. So, as a 5ft step, the Raptoran may move down 10ft, and forward 40ft. This activates Skirmish and Improved Skirmish, and you still have a Full Rounds Worth of Actions to take.
The only problem with this is positioning. You’re basically going to HAVE to circle to be able to hit anyone consistently with Skirmish damage. Until ECL10 you wont actually be able to fly, But at level 5 youll gain a climb speed which should help you get what you need. Youll be able to climb 15ft a round, 30ft if you Double move, because of Dungeon Specialist. Then you can just jump off and Glide, taking the 50ft Step and Making A Full Attack with Skirmish. The Most Relaible source of Damage is Greater Manyshot, and once you gain the ability to fly (ecl10) youll want to alternate 50ftstepArrowSwarms with Flying Upward and making a Greater Manyshot attack. Youll need to Do this to keep yourself in the air, and to be able to keep using Arrow Swarm.
This gets better though. Let me show you the actual Build.
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Arrow Swarm Archer
Scout 4, Ranger 14, Targetteer 2
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Now, youre probably not familiar with the Targetteer class. Its found in Dragon Magazine issue 310, and also At Crystal Keep on page 52. It has three unique abilites that synergize well with one another, but this build is only going to use one of them, Arrow Swarm.
Arrow Swarm [Targetteer]
Prerequisite: Rapid Shot
As a Full Round Attack, the Targetteer may make two extra ranged attacks at his/her highest attack bonus, but all attacks receive a –5 penalty. (Key to Build)
Source: Dragon Magazine # 310
Now, you can use this with the "Sniper" Targetteer ability to maximize the critical hit on one shot, but you would do a lot more damage by just taking each shot with Arrow Swarm as part of a full attack after youve Triggered Skirmish. If you think the 50ft Step is too cheesy, or want to play a human, you can use Something Like This to be able to Full attack with skirmish. But as is, this is the only Ability we need from the Targetteer, and we will just use that other level to gain the Prerequisite to Ranged Skirmisher.
Ranged Skirmisher [General]
Lets you skirmish at up to 60ft. Requires Far Shot
Source: Dragon Magazine #346, Class Acts Article
This feat is really only here to help you actually GET your skirmish while keeping you at a safe distance. Anyway, lets talk about attacks.
To Hit Options Analysis
Early on youll play just like any other archer, really. Youll have a harder time actually getting the 50ft step because youre only gliding, so youll rely on rapid shot, and at about level 7 Youll actually start Showing the hurt.
If you think you have the hang of the 50ft step, and maneuvering, then you might want to think about taking Woodland Archer sooner. As Written, the build focuses on getting as much damage as fast as possible. If you want to hit more consistently, then dont waste the feats on Farshot/RangedSkirmish, and get Woodland Archer Instead.Adjust for range will add +4 to your Arrow Swarms and bring them up to nearly your actual BAB.
Anyway, About Equipment.
Every Ranged Swift Hunter dreams of a Splitting bow(champions of ruin), and some Quiver with unlimited arrows. Ideally, these would be a Composite Splitting Great Bow, enhanced to your Strength, and the Quivers of Anariel. I always suggest carrying a spare bow also.
I think you can see the benefits of having a Splitting bow, especially if youve read a Swift Hunter Build before. Generally they are used to split a Greater Manyshot of 4 arrows into 8, but with Arrow Swarm, you can, at 20th level, split 6 arrows into 12. At that point your Improved Skirmish damage will be 7d6, and with 12 chances in one turn to deal the bow's damage plus 7d6, and probably 7X your STR mod... well thats just nice. Add in the Helping hand that Woodland Archer gives, and youre actually fairly likely to hit things.
Often.
and Hard.
Youre Welcome.
Variants and Feats Used
Arcane Hunter [Variant]
Lose: Rangers 1st Favored Enemy
Gain: Favored Enemy: Arcanists, which means you basically RUIN spellcasters, and since they are going to be the main threat to your damage output, at least until more people can fly, you need this.
Source: Complete Mage
Dungeon Specialist [Variant]
Lose: Fast movement and scout evasion youll never get
Gain: Climb speed equal to half your land speed. Useful because the whole build depends on you flying, so your dm will try and put you somewhere you cant fly. Climbing will help you fall that 10ft you need, and set up those 50ft steps.
Source: Players Handbook 2
Distracting Attack [Variant]
Lose: Ranger’s Animal Companion
Gain: Anything you hit counts as flanked for a round. It synergizes with your many attacks.
Source: Players Handbook2
Spell Reflection [Variant]
Lose: Ranger Evasion
Gain: Ability to reflect spells back at the caster. Helps vs save or dies, or stat debuff.
Source: Complete Mage
Point Blank Shot [General]
+1 attack and damage on ranged attacks within 30ft
Source: Players Handbook, System Reference Document
Precise Shot [General]
makes it easier to fire into melee
Source: Players Handbook, System Reference Document
Rapid Shot [General]
lets you get an extra attack on a full attack at a -2
Source: Players Handbook, System Reference Document
Improved Skirmish [General]
lets you get +2d6/+2 more skirmish if you move 20ft
Source: Complete Scoundrel pg.78
Swift Hunter [General]
lets ranger and scout stack for favored enemy and skirmish, also lets you skirmish favored enemies even if they are immune to critical. (Key to Build)
Source: Complete Scoundrel pg.81
Manyshot [General]
Lets you fire multiple arrows, here as a prerequisite
Source: Players Handbook, System Reference Document
Woodland Archer [Tactical]
Has a few abilities, the best of which gives you a +4 to hit ranged targets you’ve missed this round.
Source: Races of the Wild
Greater Manyshot [General]
Lets you fire multiple arrows at different targets
Source: Expanded Psionics Handbook, System Reference Document
Far Shot [General]
Increases your bow range, here as a prerequisite
Source: Players Handbook, System Reference Document.
Improved Precise Shot [General]
ignore all but the complete cover and concealment
Source: Players Handbook, System Reference Document
Plunging Shot [General]
when you are 30ft above your target you deal 1d6 extra damage.
Source: Races of the Wild
Bibliography
Races of the Wild
Players Handbook
Players Handbook2
Complete Adventurer
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Champions of Ruin
Dragon 310
Dragon 346
Crystal Keep
“Gliding – may move forward 20’ for each 5’he/she descends. Affective “flying” speed is 40 with Average maneuverability. Also, falling damage is negated by gliding. May not be carrying more than a Light load.” -Races of the Wild, Raptoran Race Pg.69
“You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.”-Players Handbook Pg.144
I have other significant problems with your interpretation of the Glide ability, but I'm going to keep this post very brief.
1) That is not the text of the Glide (ex) ability (which is on pg 68 of Races of the Wild)
2) Raptorans do not start with a fly speed. Therefore, they cannot take 5ft steps in midair at low levels.
I have other significant problems with your interpretation of the Glide ability, but I'm going to keep this post very brief.
1) That is not the text of the Glide (ex) ability (which is on pg 68 of Races of the Wild)
2) Raptorans do not start with a fly speed. Therefore, they cannot take 5ft steps in midair at low levels.
1) I actually got the text from Crystal Keep, so that's my own fault for assuming it was exactly as written in Race of the Wild. The exact text from Race of the Wild is:
"Gliding: (Ex): A raptoran can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Raptorans glide at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). Even if a raptoran's maneuverability improves, she cant hover while gliding. A raptoran cant glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
If a raptoran becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, her wings naturally unfurl and powerful ligaments stiffen the wings. the raptoran descends in a tight corkscrew and only takes 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall."
-pg68 Races of the Wild (69 if you have the pdf)
2) Even if you're right, the 50ft step would still work after level 10.
Your basic argument is that glide isn't a fly speed. My argument is that it is a fly speed that is modified, since it has a maneuverability type, (which they imply could be enhanced, which could only happen if it was fly) and that they specify you cant hover (which is a feat that has a fly speed as a prerequisite).
It is also possible that glide is a new mode of movement, akin to fly swim and burrow, since it has a speed. If thats the case, you can still take a five foot step with any mode of movement you possess.
Not that it matters. You could just not take a movement action while in the air and freefall and trigger glide, and take your full attack on the way down.
Not that it matters. You could just not take a movement action while in the air and freefall and trigger glide, and take your full attack on the way down.
Right. I think everything else is a red herring. You don't need your other interpretations. Just stop flying forward, let yourself fall, and your wings will automatically "catch" you. Bam, you trigger Skirmish without taking an action.
1-2 levels of Psiwarrior would let you "teleport" upwards 10 feet (or more, if you can burn the PPs) as a swift action. This would no doubt be useful, but might be hard to work in since your build is already pretty cramped. ;) It would bring a bonus feat (or two) also, but I'd be tempted to use it on Practiced Manifester. Ardent could also get you access to the power, but you wouldn't get bonus feats.
1-2 levels of Psiwarrior would let you "teleport" upwards 10 feet (or more, if you can burn the PPs) as a swift action. This would no doubt be useful, but might be hard to work in since your build is already pretty cramped. ;) It would bring a bonus feat (or two) also, but I'd be tempted to use it on Practiced Manifester.
If you wanted to take 50ft steps as early as possible, you could take a level or two of psychic warrior early on and retrain it later, when you don't need the teleport anymore.
i do like the possibility of using the Soulbound Weapon variant of the Psionic Warrior, but there is almost no way to work that into a Swift Hunter Build in any meaningful way, save maybe a theoretical psionic ranger variant?
I intend to update this build to pathfinder in august when its fully released to test paizo's promise of backwards compatibility. (The beta version of Manyshot already has me wondering how viable swift hunter will even be in the final release)
I'd never take that ACF. It eats up a bonus feat, one of your precious powers known, and the duration on Call Weaponry sucks. Just use a normal bow.
i just like its versatility. its not at all optimal, but i like playing a character who can pull Thors hammer out of the air.
i just like its versatility. its not at all optimal, but i like playing a character who can pull Thors hammer out of the air.
Buy a Ring of Arming. You can pull your armor and weapon "out of the air" for 5k gold. :D Or even swap one set of armor and weapon for another set, as a standard action.
Buy a Ring of Arming. You can pull your armor and weapon "out of the air" for 5k gold. :D Or even swap one set of armor and weapon for another set, as a standard action.
O_O ok thats awesome. Hammerspace ftw.
Plus, there's no reason you couldn't tack on travel devotion or buy a belt of battle to get a full arrow swarm's worth of shots in an environment with a low ceiling. My own swift hunter is the typical human scout 3/ranger 9 with travel devotion, though the other feats are a little less common due to the specific campaign (natural bond to beef up my AC as the party's secondary tank, and improved favored enemy since every opponent in this campaign is human so far).
O_O ok thats awesome. Hammerspace ftw.
I have a short list of normal responses to PXY's posts, and this is one of them.
+
Buy a Ring of Arming. You can pull your armor and weapon "out of the air" for 5k gold. :D Or even swap one set of armor and weapon for another set, as a standard action.
Rings of Arming are great. If you were so inclined, you could put ALL of your gear into one.
1) Get your weapon a hilt hollow modification (Dungeonscape).
2) Put your stuff inside a Portable Hole (or that one item that's like an evil Portable Hole).
3) Roll up the hole and put it inside your sword.
4) Use the Ring of Arming.
5) ???
6) Congrats, you're naked.
I'm still not convinced the "50ft step" works. I want to believe.
Minutia: I believe 10 feet of vertical movement that occurs simultaneously with 40 feet of horizontal movement would end up counting as 45ft distance moved. Not sure if you think it's happening simultaneously, but it might be worth noting.
Not that it matters. You could just not take a movement action while in the air and freefall and trigger glide, and take your full attack on the way down.
Drop downwards (150 feet in the first round, unless I'm mistaken), allowing them to move 600 (!) feet per round horizontally with no actions. Man, normal flight is for suckers.
A more sane interpretation is that the movement from glide (ex) takes place within the normal movement rules. So it's kinda like flight (as you said, since it uses the term maneuverability, and specifically excludes hovering), but with additional restrictions.
Which means the bit saying "20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent" does not grant action-free movement based on how much you move downwards, but rather, it restricts how much you can move forward, based on how much you move downwards.
Here's the really short version:
My argument is that it is a fly speed that is modified, since it has a maneuverability type, (which they imply could be enhanced, which could only happen if it was fly) and that they specify you cant hover (which is a feat that has a fly speed as a prerequisite).
It is also possible that glide is a new mode of movement, akin to fly swim and burrow, since it has a speed.
You have a speed. "20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent" is a restriction on that speed.
- Reading back over this post, it's somewhat incoherent. If anyone sees the point I'm trying to make, and can clarify it, then please do so.
Gliding: (Ex): A raptoran can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent
The ability does not say anything along the lines of "automatically moves forwards". It just specifies how far forward you are able to move related to the distance you descend. "Allowing" isn't the same as "granting free movement".
On the other hand, falling and using your racial ability to not take lots of damage would work (providing you fall far enough away from where you jump/teleport from).
If a raptoran becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, her wings naturally unfurl and powerful ligaments stiffen the wings. the raptoran descends in a tight corkscrew and only takes 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall."
-pg68 Races of the Wild (69 if you have the pdf)
“Down Speed: A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed.” -Rules Compendium Pg.92
“You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.”-Players Handbook Pg.144
The basic Question is how do these things interact.
Freefalling
Usually, if youre flying and refuse to take a movement action, and dont have hover, you freefall. If you allow yourself to freefall, do you Corkscrew, despite it saying "if you become unconscious or helpless", or do you trigger glide after you fall 5ft, and move 20ft forward, or do you fall to your probable death, taking damage for every 10ft you fell as usual because you're the only raptoran in the world who would choose to just not glide.
5ft Steps in the Air
If you have a movement speed, you can take a 5ft step using it; That's implied when they say you cant take a 5ft step with a movement speed you dont have. So if youre flying, you can take a 5ft step. If you move downward while flying, you do so at double speed. Most likely your 5ft step downward would be a 10ft step, BUT if while flying, you dont move your minimum forward speed (your natural fly speed) you freefall, so this goes back to the first part. The question is, does taking that 5ft(10) step downward trigger glide, and id say it probably does. I think it does at least.
Hover
None of this really matters if you just take the feat Hover after 10hd. Now you can 5ft step in the air without fuzzy rules, but i have no idea where to put this in the build. There is that variant from Complete Champion where you give up spells for feats, but there are too many good spells for that.
Triggering Skirmish with Glide/Falling
can falling even trigger skirmish? or can you only trigger skirmish when you take a movement action. There are several examples of someone using a 5ft step, somehow modified with cheese, to trigger skirmish. We know you can take a 5ft step downward with fly, and that it will be a 10ft step, thats not in question. What is in question is how this interacts with Glide. Also, featherfall + teleporting upward. How about triggering Skirmish that way?
So, how do you think glide works. It makes no mention of movement actions, only that its triggered by 5ft of downward movement. That is my interpretation, that it happens when you move downward.
You move down 5ft, and forward 20ft... that's 25ft of movement. If you glide 25ft, that is hardly a 5ft step since you can only take a 5ft step in a round during which you do not take a move action. In order to move forwards you need to take a move action.
Spirit of the Rules: When you are hang-gliding, you guide it, you dont do anything to cause it to move forward. That just happens. All you do is lean to steer.
The actual rules make no mention of a movement speed, or of movement actions. Falling requires no movement action, and thats what gliding is.
But this is the real problem i guess; it needs interpretation. How does Gliding really work? Is gliding its own type of movement, or an altered fly speed, or is it something that just happens whenever you move 5ft downward in the air, like i had thought? If you begin to fall while conscious, do you glide? If not, then what?
i guess this is what the 50ft step really hinges on.
Spirit of the Rules: When you are hang-gliding, you guide it, you dont do anything to cause it to move forward. That just happens. All you do is lean to steer.
If you're going to call "spirit of the rules" on something, do you really think that up to 600 feet of action-free movement per turn is intended?
i guess this is what the 50ft step really hinges on.
I agree with you there. There's only a little bit of rules text on glide, unfortunately, so we don't really have much to work from. I doubt you'll ever agree with me (or vice versa) on how glide works. I've already said my bit about how I think it works similarly to fly, so I'll just leave it at that.
The actual rules make no mention of a movement speed, or of movement actions. Falling requires no movement action, and thats what gliding is.
But this is the real problem i guess; it needs interpretation. How does Gliding really work? Is gliding its own type of movement, or an altered fly speed, or is it something that just happens whenever you move 5ft downward in the air, like i had thought? If you begin to fall while conscious, do you glide? If not, then what?
Gliding is not falling. It says that it "allows you to move 20ft forward" which is completely different from automatically moving you forward every time you go down. It does not even say in the text that you have to move forward, just that it allows you to do so. There is nothing in the text for glide that says it is falling. It does not say anywhere that it is automatic or that it happens every time you go downwards.
If you move 25ft using a movement speed, that's 25ft of movement. Unless you can somehow do that without taking a move action, you will have to take one to use that movement speed.
If you're going to call "spirit of the rules" on something, do you really think that up to 600 feet of action-free movement per turn is intended?
Dont be unkind. I think you misunderstood what i was saying. I never said anything about moving 600ft, thats your own interpretation. I was just trying to say that a freefall would trigger skirmish. Im not sure if dnd has rules for how far you can fall in a round, given that a round is only 6 seconds.
I agree with you there. There's only a little bit of rules text on glide, unfortunately, so we don't really have much to work from. I doubt you'll ever agree with me (or vice versa) on how glide works. I've already said my bit about how I think it works similarly to fly, so I'll just leave it at that.
If it does work similarly to fly, you can take the 10ft step downward, which may or may not trigger Glide. Do you think Glide has to be triggered by a movement ACTION rather than just Movement, while skirmish doesnt, and neither say that, but both say "movement"?
Gliding is not falling. It says that it "allows you to move 20ft forward" which is completely different from automatically moving you forward every time you go down. It does not even say in the text that you have to move forward, just that it allows you to do so. There is nothing in the text for glide that says it is falling. It does not say anywhere that it is automatic or that it happens every time you go downwards.
Gliding is falling in the real world. In game terms, its unclear exactly what it is. "Allows you to move 20ft forward" may or may not mean "move 20ft forward with a movement action", especially since the statement ties it to 5ft of descent and doesnt explain exactly how that descent is meant to happen. If it doesnt happen by falling, how then does it happen? Its not flying, apparently, so youre saying "glide" is a new form of movement? You're SUPPOSED to be able to take a 5ft step with any form of movement you possess.
Because raptorans have average maneuverability, they have a minimum forward speed of 15ft, half their movement speed. You accomplish that with a 5ft step downward, and can stay airborn.
If you move 25ft using a movement speed, that's 25ft of movement. Unless you can somehow do that without taking a move action, you will have to take one to use that movement speed.
My whole point is that i believe gliding to be a special ability, not a movement speed, since its listed as a special ability and not as a movement speed. Whenever you descend 5ft somehow, you may move forward 20ft. So jump off of something. Thats what im saying, that i believe gliding to be something you can just choose to do anytime you descend 5ft.
If the 20ft forward movement is free every time you descend 5ft, what does the speed of 40ft (average manuverability) do?
As far as I can tell, under your interpretation of the glide ability, the character's glide speed is not used for anything. Ever.
I never said anything about moving 600ft, thats your own interpretation.
It's a natural extension of this:
My whole point is that i believe gliding to be a special ability, not a movement speed, since its listed as a special ability and not as a movement speed. Whenever you descend 5ft somehow, you may move forward 20ft.
Since it says "20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent", a fall of 150 feet (the distance that a flying creature that falls travels in the first round) would let the Raptoran move 600 feet horizontally. Without using any actions.
Okay, so maybe I'm not quite done posting in this thread.
If the 20ft forward movement is free every time you descend 5ft, what does the speed of 40ft (average maneuverability) do?
As far as I can tell, under your interpretation of the glide ability, the character's glide speed is not used for anything. Ever.
Under the interpretation im being offered, then when you use glide to move, you move 40ft. If it is a movement speed, then you can take 5ft steps.
What ive been saying is If you take a 5ft step downward, youll move 20ft forward, since you descended. This means youve moved 25ft this round and meet the minimum of 15ft of forward speed required to stay aloft, and you've only taken a 5ft step.
You guys are saying that you can only use glide to move 40ft forward, and that the first part about 5ft down and 20ft forward is only a note about how it behaves if you choose to descend, but if you choose to NOT take a movement action, and instead use your glide speed to take a 5ft step downward, what happens?
Since it says "20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent", a fall of 150 feet (the distance that a flying creature that falls travels in the first round) would let the Raptoran move 600 feet horizontally. Without using any actions.
thats basically what im saying, that the 20ft/5ft is a passive ability, and that the 40ft is a movement speed. Im saying that since any movement speed allows 5ft steps, and that in the air you can move in 3d, that you can 5ft step downwards, and that the passive 20ft/5ft aspect of glide is activiated, and that i can move forward 20ft. without using any actions (except the one for the 5ft step).
a fall of 150 feet (the distance that a flying creature that falls travels in the first round
Just for the sake of knowing, where did you get this from? book&page?
Quoting from the rules for taking a 5ft step-
"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions, such as standing up), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."
So strictly speaking, even if a 5ft step downward would make you automatically move forwards while gliding, without taking a move action, that forwards movement would negate your ability to actually take the 5ft step in the first place.
I believe this also prevents taking a 5ft step downwards and using that to move 10ft because of the rules for descending at double speed as the extra movement would disallow the 5ft step.
Ok, I think this should put to rest this argument (but knowing these boards probably wont ;) )
Quoting from the rules for taking a 5ft step-
"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions, such as standing up), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."
So strictly speaking, even if a 5ft step downward would make you automatically move forwards while gliding, without taking a move action, that forwards movement would negate your ability to actually take the 5ft step in the first place.
I believe this also prevents taking a 5ft step downwards and using that to move 10ft because of the rules for descending at double speed as the extra movement would disallow the 5ft step.
page and book for quotes please.
What if you 5ft step off a cliff, does reality retcon itself?
It is possible that a 5ft step is always a 5ft step, and that a trait of the terrain cant enhance it. Even so, youd move 20ft forward.
Regardless, I agree with Kadeitys interpretation of the rules.
Just for the sake of knowing, where did you get this from? book&page?
The SRD, here.
page and book for quotes please.
The bit he quoted is here.
You guys are saying that you can only use glide to move 40ft forward, and that the first part about 5ft down and 20ft forward is only a note about how it behaves if you choose to descend, but if you choose to NOT take a movement action, and instead use your glide speed to take a 5ft step downward, what happens?
I'm not saying the 5ft down/20ft forward part is "how it behaves if you choose to descend" (which is a phrase I'm still trying to parse). I'm saying it's a restriction on the glide speed.
To answer your question, though, you fail to keep up your minimum forward speed, and fall 150 feet downwards.
Well, If I were to argue this to a DM I would appeal to his sensibility, since It makes more sense that you gain 20ft of forward movement for every 5ft of downward movement than not, considering your gliding and you actually have limited control over how much you move when doing so. Even if you are abusing the 5ft step mechanic.
Regardless, I agree with Kadeitys interpretation of the rules.
And this "limited control over how much you move" is not simulated by having average maneuverability?
Well, If I were to argue this to a DM I would appeal to his sensibility, since It makes more sense that you gain 20ft of forward movement for every 5ft of downward movement than not, considering your gliding and you actually have limited control over how much you move when doing so. Even if you are abusing the 5ft step mechanic.
Regardless, I agree with Kadeitys interpretation of the rules.
I think it's a pretty thin argument to say you should be able to move 20ft forwards without taking a move action, by using a 5ft step that is specifically not allowed to be used if you move any distance during your turn. Gliding forwards is moving "actual distance" which means you cannot take a 5ft step.
It also seems a pretty big stretch to say that the rule "allows you to move 20ft forward" actually means "automatically moves you 20ft fowards without using a move action or any of your movement". You could, by your interpretation, move downwards 40ft (your fly speed) and be automatically propelled forwards 160ft.
In response to the question about 5ft stepping off a cliff - by RAW you cannot 5ft step off a cliff since that would cause you to move downwards (presumably).
I think it's a pretty thin argument to say you should be able to move 20ft forwards without taking a move action, by using a 5ft step that is specifically not allowed to be used if you move any distance during your turn. Gliding forwards is moving "actual distance" which means you cannot take a 5ft step.
It also seems a pretty big stretch to say that the rule "allows you to move 20ft forward" actually means "automatically moves you 20ft forwards without using a move action or any of your movement". You could, by your interpretation, move downwards 40ft (your fly speed) and be automatically propelled forwards 160ft.
In response to the question about 5ft stepping off a cliff - by RAW you cannot 5ft step off a cliff since that would cause you to move downwards (presumably).
i disagree with your interpretations of several things here, and it seems that the (no actual distance) bit is problematic. However your interpretation of it, that movement you cant control (like falling) can deprive you of your 5ft step, would mean that if you've been bullrushed and knocked back, if someone has cast regroup, if you've teleported, if anything that MOVES you happens before your turn in initiative THIS ROUND, then you dont get your five foot step. I dont think that is a fair interpretation? Falling is just something that happens.
Anyway, at least now i think you have some grounds for your interpretation.
I am proposing that gliding in dnd works just like Gliding in the real world, and that YES you are propelled forward without any actions, just like when you glide in the real world, because you arent really DOING anything, youre just kindof along for the ride.
But: it appears that moving actual distance after my 5ft step is problematic, and that so is GRAVITY. While i see that the rules say "no actual distance" i dont think that that means you suddenly resist gravity and dont descend at double speed like always. Maybe its not RAW for that part of glide to be passive (i think it is but i see why you dont) but im pretty sure gravity should still work, especially since rules in the rules compendium supersede anything else.
Even if the 50ft step doesnt work, you can still 5ft step downward when you have a fly speed, and SHOULD still descend at twice the speed. Without glide as a passive ability though, youll need a maneuverability that has no minimum forward speed so you wont fall, and the Hover Feat. So thats ECL10, improved flight feat, then the hover feat, which you can take once you get Flight.
I had hoped that common interpretation would agree with me, but i guess thats not the case.
Travel Devotion still works better.
"Gliding: (Ex): A raptoran can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. (you can only activate this by descending using your glide speed, other methods of descent wont do.) Raptorans glide at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). Even if a raptoran's maneuverability improves, she cant hover while gliding. A raptoran cant glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
If a raptoran becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, her wings naturally unfurl and powerful ligaments stiffen the wings. the raptoran descends in a tight corkscrew and only takes 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall."
-pg68 Races of the Wild (69 if you have the pdf)
Also, can i glide upward? It doesnt say i cant, and although i know how gliding works in the real world, i think im gonna go with RAW and say i can,at half speed as per average maneuverability. (Also, average maneuverability offers a descent of double speed. And so if i use my glide speed to take a 5ft step, do i move double speed downward?)
How ive been running glide is, you can move up to 40ft forward, maximum, and even if you dont descend, you always descend 10ft a turn. I ruled that the 20ft forward and 5ft descent are tied to one another always, so if you descend, you move forward. if you move forward, you descend. Because Ascent happens at half speed, and all forward movement is tied to descent, i ruled that ascent only happens at half speed minus the descent that comes with any sort of forward movement.
Gliding takes care of itself for the most part, because youd have to start off high enough to glide anyway, and the distance to the ground covers itself pretty quickly.... just like in real life.
ANYWAY, glide is only part of the build. A full attack Composite splitting Arrow swarm + woodland archer are pretty sweet also, especially if you can trigger skirmish or improved using any one of the many other methods.
Just to be sure, you guys are saying that glide works like this:
I assume I am a member of "you guys", though I do not speak for Weezel or know precisely how he interprets the glide ability.
"Gliding: (Ex): A raptoran can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. (you can only activate this by descending using your glide speed, other methods of descent wont do.)
Stop right there.
I have never stated or implied that glide functions in this manner. (If any of my posts could be misinterpreted in this way, I apologize for being unclear.)
As I said earlier, I treat that sentence as a restriction rather than something that can be "activated".