Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mervin_magnus Jul 28, 2009 20:43:17	Ok I'm stumped, my friend is asking me for a build. He wants to be a bad*** like the dude from assassin's creed but at the same time he wants to have the occasional ability to dish out something crazy like naruto (ninjutsu) So basically a very shady ninja (that uses "chakra") Oh yea! this shady ninja is a good guy I'm trying to come up with an optimized build that would embody that... What I was thinking was: Assassin creed: Avenger, Slayer of Domiel (perhaps), Rouge Naruto: Swordsage, Ninja (perhaps) Can you guys come up with any optimized build? If you can't fit in the "ninjutsu" part into your build, that is O.K. still post it P.S. It's O.K. not to use the classes I mentioned above. They're just ideas.
#2 tethlis Jul 28, 2009 22:35:02	Rogue / Swashbuckler / Invisible Blade / Sword sage maby?
#3 mervin_magnus Jul 28, 2009 22:54:07	Thx for the swash/invisi blade idea. I'm going to throw in the classes I mention bc he REALLY liked those classes. The build I current have: Rouge 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Avenger 1/ Slayer of Domiel 3/ Invisi Blade 5/ XXX 3/ Swordsage 2 Should I put the last 3 levels into swordsage? ninja? anything else in mind? (preferably a full sneak attack class so it come close to full rouge sneak attack) Of course if you have any sort of input it is welcome.
#4 thebigstupidfighter Jul 28, 2009 23:29:56	the Ninja Assassin from Oriental Adventures might serve you well here.
#5 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 9:45:01	the Ninja Assassin from Oriental Adventures might serve you well here. do you mean ninja spy? because it is interesting... but it has a slow sneak attack progression, which is making me question: is it worth it?
#6 dragonamedrake Jul 29, 2009 10:57:16	Here was my version of Assassin's Creed and the forum post to go along with it. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=16406660
#7 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 11:04:42	Here was my version of Assassin's Creed and the forum post to go along with it. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=16406660 sweet thanks! I just put in swordsage instead of monk (who need to punch, when I gotta dagga?) My new build: (I like my death attack!) Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage* 2/ Avenger 1/ Invisi Blade 5/ Ninja of the Cresent Moon 9 *It's the unarmed swordsage variant (which is improved unarmed strike) This build costs me an extra feat (deflect arrows), but I gain swordsage manuvers. P.S. If this build was to continue onto epics what levels would I take I'm thinking 1 Slayer of Domiel (i just like the class), finish ninja, and then continue on with swordsage.
#8 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 12:05:24	Now I need to consider feats: Human: Point Blank Shot (pre req) Flaw: Weapon Focus (dagger) (pre req) Flaw: Far Shot (pre req) 1: Deflect Arrows (pre req) 3: Two Weapon Fighting (for any sneak attack build) 6: Quick Draw (pre req) 9: Craven (worth more than daring outlaw) 12: improved two weapon fighting 15: greater two weapon fighting 18: ??? I'm just making sure, Kung Fu Genius feat only applies to monks? If I get rid of Penetrating Strike, I would be able to get Surprising Riposte (Drow of Underdark) which will allow me to apply my sneak attack as a full round aciton (i.e. get sneak attack bonus to each attack). But the pre req feats aren't all that good. I could always go down the "Shadow Blade," "Gloom Razor" path: +Dex instead of Str to finesse damage and awsome tactical feat... Adaptive Style is fairly manditoy as a swordsage... Some of the skill tricks I'm looking at are very interesting: Mosquito's Bite: I can sneak up behind someone, sneak attack them, and they won't even know! Acrobatic Backstab: I move through opponent space to make them flatfooted (sneak attack!) Im open for anything (but this doesn't have much variant, most of it are pre reqs...)
#9 dragonamedrake Jul 29, 2009 15:03:37	Now I need to consider feats: Human: Point Blank Shot (pre req) Flaw: Weapon Focus (dagger) (pre req) Flaw: Far Shot (pre req) 1: Deflect Arrows (pre req) 3: Two Weapon Fighting (for any sneak attack build) 6: Quick Draw (pre req) 9: Craven (worth more than daring outlaw) 12: Penetrating Strike (sneak attack apply to constructs! woot!) 15: ??? 18: ??? I'm just making sure, Kung Fu Genius feat only applies to monks? If I get rid of Penetrating Strike, I would be able to get Surprising Riposte (Drow of Underdark) which will allow me to apply my sneak attack as a full round aciton (i.e. get sneak attack bonus to each attack). But the pre req feats aren't all that good. I could always go down the "Shadow Blade," "Gloom Razor" path: +Dex instead of Str to finesse damage and awsome tactical feat... Adaptive Style is fairly manditoy as a swordsage... Some of the skill tricks I'm looking at are very interesting: Mosquito's Bite: I can sneak up behind someone, sneak attack them, and they won't even know! Acrobatic Backstab: I move through opponent space to make them flatfooted (sneak attack!) First of all... Avenger? Im not familiar with this class... what book is it from? I dont have the Drow of Underdark book either but sneak attack isnt restricted to your first attack as is. If your talking about bluffing as a free action and only getting your first attack as a SA then yes thats true... If that feat gets around that it would definatly be something Id like to see. Gloom Razor is a really nice feat but I would really think about Improved and Greater TWF ... 2 extra attacks worth of SA might be better then Dex to dmg. Forget Penetrating Strike... Look at the Weapon Crystals in the Magic Item Compendium. 6k gold and you can SA constructs do an extra 1d6 dmg, and overcome dmg reduction as if your weapon is adamantine. There is also an undead version for 10k gold. I even worked it out with most of my dms for plant and ooze versions. They can be a bit pricey if you get 2 of each for 2 weapons but they are too good for rogues... And its a move equivenlent to swap out a weapon crystal... so you can crit a different type on the fly and if you get a new weapon you just swap em to that new weapon. Kung Fu Genius is a monk feat so thats a no go. Over all Sword Sage might be a good way to go if you like the abilities you pick up from 2 lvls of it. I personally liked the feal of monk and didnt like giving up the ability to use a Monks belt and Monks tatoo to increase my monk abilities. Really I dont know how Avenger fits into the mix so that might be another reason to go Swordsage. But over all it looks like a strong build.
#10 dragonamedrake Jul 29, 2009 15:21:18	O on a side note. Im actually playing my build right now and Im almost getting to the point where I am going to have to curb my build back some. The DM is getting somewhat a little frustrated with my build lol. Im currently 12th lvl so Ive taken my second lvl of Ninja of the Cresent Moon. Ive got 5 attacks (11 BA with TW and Imp TW) with 9d6 SA 2d6 from my Swashbuckler lvls, 3d6 from my Invisable Blade lvls, 1d6 from NotCM, 2d6 from weapon enchant (Deadly Precision), and 1d6 from a Rogue's Vest. I think I might get rid of the weapon enchants and rogue's vest because honestly its getting rediculous. I and our monk both have wounding on our weapons, so most mobs take 4 to 10 points of con dmg a round. The two of us killed a CR 12 Mob in one round last game... it didnt even get to act. I also have all the weapon crystals, which means Im going to Sneak attack almost anything he throws at us other then humanoids with Fortification armor... but then we have other things for those characters. My build is decent till like lvl 10 and then once you start getting a good amount of gold for some few key items.... your power goes through the friggin roof. O btw... where you getting a Death attack from? Also does Avenger give you a +1 Base attack? If not your looking at a +15 base attack and lacking that last extra attack. I convinced the DM to use the old NotCM from 3.0 so Ive get Fighter BA and Monk Saves but even without that my build gets that 16 base attack bonus. Just something to consider.
#11 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 15:23:59	avenger is basically a non-evil assassin the reason I got him is because: easy entry (no feats, just some skills and BAB) more sneak attack dice and most importantly Death Attack I just feel death attack is the epitome of all sneaky builds (I strike you, then you either die or be paralyzed!) If your talking about bluffing as a free action and only getting your first attack as a SA then yes thats true... If that feat gets around that it would definatly be something Id like to see. Oh, didn't know about the "all attack, EXCEPT when ur bluffing" but yes, this feat would let me get full round sneak attacking while bluffing. but it costly (have two pre req feats that aren't that great) Over all Sword Sage might be a good way to go if you like the abilities you pick up from 2 lvls of it. I personally liked the feal of monk and didnt like giving up the ability to use a Monks belt and Monks tatoo to increase my monk abilities First off, yes I chose swordsage because of shadow hand manuvers (extra sneak attack!) But I am curious about the tatoos ur talking about P.S. I can still use monk's belt Since my understanding of sneak attack changed ill fill in the two "two weapon fighting" feats But I'm still 1 feat short... shadow hand? I'm still open for anything... P.P.S: Avenger link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a P.P.P.S: I got my DM to approve partial BAB (woot!) (I made my DM pick between 3.0 and partal BAB)
#12 dandu Jul 29, 2009 18:27:39	and most importantly Death Attack I just feel death attack is the epitome of all sneaky builds (I strike you, then you either die or be paralyzed!) The DC is very low.
#13 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 18:33:02	I use death attack on wizards and rouges (the ones without fortitude) Plus I plan to have very high Intelligence, which should help. This is especially helpful against other rouges bc my attack has to deal damage, not score sneak attack damage. So their uncanny dodge is pointless against it!
#14 dragonamedrake Jul 29, 2009 19:18:51	What book is the avenger in? It sounds interesting. Monks Tattoo is from Magic of Faerun. It increases unarmed strike, speed, and AC by 4 lvls. Doesnt grant abilities to a non monk and doesnt take up an equipment slot... it does cost 80k gold but it stacks with a monks belt for a total of 9 lvls of extra monk lovin. But then considering the cost its debatable whether this or the swordsage is better... the assassins stance for 2d6 extra dmg is nice. you might want to think on this though. Your Avenger class looks like isnt giving you a point of base attack so your going to be stuck at +15 base attack. That might not be a big deal but you loose one attack. Also if you dont want to go the Imp Two weapon fighting/Greater Two Weapon Fighting there are a pair of bracers that give you Imp Two Weapon Fighting as long as you have Two weapon fighting. Gloves of the Balanced Hands in Magic of Faerun... 18k gold but then it takes up the same slot that your gloves of Dex do... you could combine them with the magic item rules. Just some thoughts.
#15 dragonamedrake Jul 29, 2009 19:28:06	I use death attack on wizards and rouges (the ones without fortitude) Plus I plan to have very high Intelligence, which should help. This is especially helpful against other rouges bc my attack has to deal damage, not score sneak attack damage. So their uncanny dodge is pointless against it! Ok let me clear up a few things here. Uncanny dodge just allows them to retain thier dex to AC if they are caught flat footed... they are still flat footed and can be the target of a Sneak Attack. Improved Uncanny Dodge just keeps them from being flanked unless the rogue has 4 lvls of rogue more then they have class lvls in whatever give them uncanny dodge. In other words you cant catch them flat footed by flanking. They can still be sneak attacked if they arent aware of you or if you bluff them catching them flat footed that way. It only cancels your sneak attack for flanking. Now Im not sure how the Avenger's Death attack works but if its like an Assassin's death attack then you have to study your opponent for 3 rounds without them knowing so... in other words your hidden. When you strike they will be flat footed because they have to be unaware of you... otherwise you cant death attack em anyways. So your death attack would deal sneak attack dmg to a rogue or barbarian ... they would just retain thier dex to AC and be harder to hit. Does that make any since lol?
#16 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 19:40:18	I took me a while but I finally understood your second post. Ill look into the tatoo thing, see if that makes it better (the 80k does kinda sting) The BAB problem isn't a problem bc my DM allowed partial BAB (if he didn't the I'd probably stay in Ninja) This makes the weighing (between swordsage and monk) more dificult: (belt included) Monk 2 with tatoo: flurry of blows (not helpful bc it unarmed) evasion, 2 bonus feats (1 I care about), +20 speed 1d10 unarmed strike +2 AC Swordsage: Several manuvers (shadwo hand help get in more sneak attacks) no speed bonus 1d6 (swordsage) + 1d8 (belt) unarmed damage: if you interpret rules differently, then it is just 1d8 +1 AC Basically I lose 20 speed, 1 AC, bonus feat, and evasion for manuvers and stances (and 80k) This is how I broke it down: I lose evasion and 1 AC---> I gain miss chance from manuvers (even a stance if I take it) (you win here) I lose speed---> I gain "moveability" through manuvers (I think I win here) I lose bonus feat---> I gain stances (close call) (but I keep 80k, which is a good magic item)
#17 dragonamedrake Jul 29, 2009 20:44:30	Sweet then you seem set. Let me suggest a few nice magic items then. Boots of Temporal Acceleration. They are in the Magic Item Compendium. Once per day you gain Time Stop for 2 rounds. For most rogues this isnt that great but for a Death attack... you study your opponent for one round... activate these boots... study them for the 2 rounds of Time stop and wack! ... lol you can effectively get a Death Attack that only takes 1 round of study once a day for 21k gold... not a bad deal. Ive already mentioned the Rogues Vest and Weapon Crystals... they are both in the Magic Item Compendium. The Rogues Vest also doesnt take up your Armor slot.. its a vest that takes up a Vest slot. (aka you can wear a set of Armor and a vest). Mask of Lies. Wow I cant tell you how nice this item is if used well. My character im playing has a max disguise skill. Combined with this item people have almost no chance of telling who I am. It works like a Hat of Disguise so you get disguise self at will(+20 to your disguise check). I have been a different person in almost every town my party goes too. Even my party isnt sure who I really am. If they do pierce your illusion with a spell such as True Seeing they will still only see a person in a Black Mask. Second the Undetectable Allignment is nice if you are evil... my character is lol. And the bonus to bluff checks works great for my free feint in combat for sneak attack. for its price its a steal imo. I work as an assassin and Ive had hits actually taken out on myself. Because of this one Item and because im continually changing my persona no one can even find me. And last the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis... Tome of Magic item that grats you the Dark Creature Template for 10 minutes or a continuous effect for the greater version. The Template gives you a hefty bonus to hide and move silently some cold resist and Hide in Plane site... all for a very resonable amount... yes please.
#18 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 21:07:36	thanks for the item suggestions (I was planning on using the dark template with LA buyoff- not anymore!) I still have an issue with a leftover feat... Should I just put in Shadow Hand, or is there some other feat that would be worth my while. (If I do take shadow hand, I'll be able to take gloom razor at epics) Please note that the avenger has a twin the assassin they are both the same in every way with the exception of one. Avenger: non-chaotic Assassin: evil So my build is adaptable to be an evil build (I prefer evil, but since this build is for a friend who prefer good)
#19 dragonamedrake Jul 29, 2009 21:31:15	thanks for the item suggestions (I was planning on using the dark template with LA buyoff- not anymore!) I still have an issue with a leftover feat... Should I just put in Shadow Hand, or is there some other feat that would be worth my while. (If I do take shadow hand, I'll be able to take gloom razor at epics) Please note that the avenger has a twin the assassin they are both the same in every way with the exception of one. Avenger: non-chaotic Assassin: evil So my build is adaptable to be an evil build (I prefer evil, but since this build is for a friend who prefer good) Yeah i took a look at Avenger and its a solid class. I like it but I usually prefer to be Lawful Evil. You could explain to your friend that not all evil alighned people want to see the world burn. I play a paid killer who has his own set of personal rules he lives by(Hense the lawful part). He doesnt have any open hosility towards good. He just is willing to kill for money and believes that if he was contracted... the person obviously did something to diserve it at some point in his life. He usually has rules like he wont kill children or stuff like that. But that avenger seems like a good sub. A paid killer who works for a specific cause or religion would be actually more in line with Assassin's Creed. I just have fun being evil in a party of good players lol. My party hasnt even realized what I do in my free time between adventures. When we go to town they spend money... thats when I start making the real money lol. As for the feat. I would go Daring Outlaw for 2d6 more SA or Adaptive Style for your Swordsage lvls. Either would I think work better for you then having to use epic feats for dex to dmg... expecially at that point your damage is insane anyways.
#20 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 21:39:48	P.S. I always have a "plan" (more like a general idea) if this build was to go to epic levels (I always write on margin of character sheet "focus on warlock, or, dip here, then continue there...) On this character sheet this is what I plan to write: 1 level dip into slayer of domiel (if I'm good, if not skip) (from book of exalted deeds) finish Ninja level continue on with swordsage People tell me the dread commando class is good...
#21 dragonamedrake Jul 29, 2009 21:55:14	P.S. I always have a "plan" (more like a general idea) if this build was to go to epic levels (I always write on margin of character sheet "focus on warlock, or, dip here, then continue there...) On this character sheet this is what I plan to write: 1 level dip into slayer of domiel (if I'm good, if not skip) (from book of exalted deeds) finish Ninja level continue on with swordsage People tell me the dread commando class is good... eehhh not a fan of Slayer of Domiel.. detect evil is cool i guess but the death touch? Even at lvl 10 in the class your rolling 10d6. If he has less then 10d6 hitpoints then you could just attack him at that lvl and kill him. With a one lvl dip your talking 1d6 hitpoints... in epic lvl you could pinch him and do more.
#22 mod5000 Jul 31, 2009 8:58:10	Someone created an Assassin's Creed class that might be worth looking into... hope this helps.
#23 phaedrusxy Jul 31, 2009 13:01:25	Ok let me clear up a few things here. Uncanny dodge just allows them to retain thier dex to AC if they are caught flat footed... they are still flat footed and can be the target of a Sneak Attack. That's not right at all. From the Rogue class description: The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC Since they retain their Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed, they are not vulnerable to being Sneak Attacked. However, you are right that you can use Feint to Sneak Attack someone with Uncanny Dodge, as Uncanny Dodge doesn't protect against Feinting.
#24 hijaxx Jul 31, 2009 13:59:03	how about something like this? psionic warrior 1/unarmed swordsage 3/warblade 1/teflammar shadowlord 5/Elocator 7/Unarmed swordsage +3 (Im AFB, but i remember swordsage getting some sort of teleportation maneuver) Important feats: Up the walls, Speed of thought, psionic charge, mental leap. And max your jump and tumble skills. less focus on sneak attack damage, more on hopping around the city like a total badass. (note: i only ever played assasin's creed one time at a friend)
#25 dragonamedrake Aug 01, 2009 3:12:34	Pretty sure Im right here unless im just reading to much into this... but here goes From the Rogue class description: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Basically, the rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.. From the Rules Compendium: FLAT-FOOTED You can’t react well to danger at the beginning of combat... I bolded the key words... stay with me here. This is just a BASIC description of what can triger a sneak attack. But you will notice that being flat footed means you cant react well to danger in combat when flat footed, which to me trigers a sneak attack by the above description. From the PHB description of flanking: When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner. Notice how while being flanked you dont loose your dex but you can still be the victim of a sneak attack. I know I know... it talked about being flanked but Im not done yet. From barbarians class description: Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. Notice how they dont state you are unable to be the victim of a sneak attack, yet you dont loose your Dex to AC. From barbarians class description: Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked; he can react to opponents on opposite sides of him as easily as he can react to a single attacker. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. Now why would they specificly state that this denies rogues the ability to sneak attack them while being flanked and not say anything to that effect when talking about uncanny dodge and being flatfooted. The way i see it you can be the victim of a sneak attack while being flat footed whether or not you keep your Dex to AC. By your description anyone with improved uncanny dodge cant be the victim of a sneak attack if... Being caught unaware... after all he retains his Dex to AC Being attacked by an invisible character... again see above Being Flanked.... this I agree with cause it specified he gets with improved uncanny dodge. Maybe my groups have just played it differently but basicly a rogue would have no chance of ever getting a sneak attack off on anyone with Improved Uncanny dodge. That doesnt add up to me.
#26 hijaxx Aug 01, 2009 3:20:31	Maybe my groups have just played it differently but basicly a rogue would have no chance of ever getting a sneak attack off on anyone with Improved Uncanny dodge. That doesnt add up to me. the fact that pun-pun can exist doesn't add up to me either. game designers are just as prone to making mistakes as anyone else. the fact that the DnD people failed at catchint their mistakes does not make the mistakes sponatneously cease to exist.
#27 Senevri Aug 01, 2009 4:44:38	Uh, dragonamedrake, what are you on? Uncanny dodge will, in fact, prevent SA from working, due to the fact that the target isn't denied dex bonus to AC. It won't help against flanking. Now, you cleverly bolded only part of the sentence, thus taking it out of context. The full text: "This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him," gives the specific extra benefit from Improved Uncanny Dodge. Compare to the following sentence: "You can receive a million dollars by winning in a lottery" See how important the qualifying second part is? Also, Sneak Attack is NOT in any way keyed to the condition of being flat-footed, per se.
#28 dragonamedrake Aug 02, 2009 0:52:48	Uh, dragonamedrake, what are you on? Uncanny dodge will, in fact, prevent SA from working, due to the fact that the target isn't denied dex bonus to AC. It won't help against flanking. Now, you cleverly bolded only part of the sentence, thus taking it out of context. The full text: "This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him," gives the specific extra benefit from Improved Uncanny Dodge. Compare to the following sentence: "You can receive a million dollars by winning in a lottery" See how important the qualifying second part is? Also, Sneak Attack is NOT in any way keyed to the condition of being flat-footed, per se. I actually went and took a look at a few sage advice post. It seems I am in fact wrong though I still believe Im not twisting anything... but anyways sorry to derail the thread. As stands if this is how Uncanny dodge works then I dont see how a rogue could possibly get around it... Who takes more than 5 levels of rogue honestly... but back to the thread. how about something like this? psionic warrior 1/unarmed swordsage 3/warblade 1/teflammar shadowlord 5/Elocator 7/Unarmed swordsage +3 (Im AFB, but i remember swordsage getting some sort of teleportation maneuver) Important feats: Up the walls, Speed of thought, psionic charge, mental leap. And max your jump and tumble skills. less focus on sneak attack damage, more on hopping around the city like a total badass. (note: i only ever played assasin's creed one time at a friend) Im not familiar with shadowlord or elocator so I cant help much there. Swordsage does get a d door type abliliy that works up to 100 feet but it goes in a series... the low lvl one takes a standard, the second a move, and the last one a swift I believe... but I dont think your IL would be high enough for the last one... I could be wrong though since your last three lvls are Swordsage.
#29 hijaxx Aug 02, 2009 13:37:07	elocator is a psionic class specialized in mobility. shadowlord gains an ability that allows me to make a full attack each time i teleport(or something like that).