Assassin/Rogue and Wizard Optimizations - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Assassin/Rogue and Wizard Optimizations

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
hairrorist
Nov 13, 2008 10:16:29 I've got a pair of characters that I need some help advancing. I just don't know -how- to go in the direction I want to go without irrevocably gimping them.

Rufio:
Rogue 5/Assassin 3
Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Dodge

He has outrageous stats: 18 Str / 19 Dex / 12 Con / 13 Wis / 17 Int / 16 Char.
I'd like to take him in a more magically oriented direction, hopefully without sacrificing too much of his roguishness. Any ideas?

Anton is a improved specialist (Evocation) Wizard 7. He can't cast Abjuration, Necromancy, or Enchantments.
He has Empower Spell, Improved Init, Alacritous Cogitation, and Extend Spell. I'd like to take him in an evil direction....the more bizarre, otherworldly, etc, the better, but I need to retain full spellcasting potential. His main problem right now is probably his low, low AC of 16.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance guys!
#2
CantripN
Nov 13, 2008 10:38:38 I'd suggest Alienist (CA) for the Otherworldly (Evil/Crazy) flavoured Wizard. It's not an amazing PrC, but you don't really lose anything for taking it, and you get some semi-useful stuff (and awesome fluff).

Another (more powerful, I think) version, would be Wild Soul (CM) (Unseelie, probably). Great fluff, but I'm not sure that's the kind of Evil you want.

As for the Assassin, look at Swashbuckler 3 (at least) + the Daring Outlaw feat (CS) to gain a decent (and simple) Rogue.

If you can retrain/rebuild the PCs, we can make them far better, though. Seriously, Two-Weapon Defense?! A Pure-class Wizard (though he is actually decent as far as feats and schools go, I admit)?
#3
hairrorist
Nov 13, 2008 12:37:27 Yeah... I'm rusty after a two year D&D hiatus, and I just got my sourcebooks back, so now I want to try to salvage these guys as much as possible. Although I admit that it's kind of like asking how to turn a prius into a racecar.

The Assassin was a throwaway character whom I decided to keep around after he contracted an unseelie "blessing" that gave him great stats, but requires him to consume 1/10th his body weight in food per day. So now I have to try and get what I can out of him.

Are there any formal rules on retraining/rebuilding or is it just DM discretion?
#4
rebel7284
Nov 13, 2008 13:04:39
Are there any formal rules on retraining/rebuilding or is it just DM discretion?

Player's Handbook 2
#5
idontmuchcareforit
Nov 13, 2008 16:05:57 would have been alot better if we could have built it from scratch...
I definitely appreciate your prius analogy.

I would say keep advancing assassin. It will reduce the amount of depletable magic items you need. Assassin is no combat ace, but it will do ok for stealth operations.
#6
NiteCyper
Nov 13, 2008 16:43:44 Other fashions of modifying past decisions about levels is Thought Bottle, Psychic Reformation (psionic power), DCFS (in my sig),
The 'Shadow-walker' template gives you some SLAs since you want magic.
Getting the Dark template (LA +1) or a (continuous) Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ten minutes/day) gets HiPS and some other bonuses.
Incarnum is magical and has good stealth bonuses via Lamia Belt, Kruthik Claws, Fellmist Robe (virtual HiPS). Shedu Crown with the Mindsight feat is a great scouter's boon.
For more Stealth tips, check my fragmented handbook.
If I were that Rogue, I'd probably continue with Rogue or Assassin levels, maybe grab some combo like Practised Spellcaster and Unseen Seer for Hunter's Eye. It'd be a fun challenge to prove that plain Rogue(/Assassin)s can be good.
Tome of Battle is another magical path to take. The good thing is that non-initiator class levels count towards your initiator level slightly so you can salvage some with that. Try Crusader, Extra Granted Maneuver, and Martial Study to be granted Cloak of Deception, Drain Vitality, Shadow Jaunt every round. Cloak of Deception means greater invisibility as long as you have the maneuver granted which you should with the Crusader's method of maneuver recovery. Along with Tome of Battle stuff, you can get the Shadow Blade feat which lets you apply DEX to melee damage with weapons of the Shadow Hand discipline.
Fighter (Hit-and-Run tactics variant from DotU) levels can get you DEX to damage against flat-footed opponents within 30 ft.
You might be interested in the 'Keen Intellect' feat (DMag?) which lets you apply INT to Will saves and certain WIS-based skills.
Swashbuckler is good for free Weapon Finesse and, at third level, INT to damage via Insightful Strike as precision damage.

Could you elaborate on this Unseelie blessing you've received?

For your Wizard, check out the 'how to shove it to beatsticks' thread, a caster's resource to not getting hit.
Warmage 1 gets Warmage's Edge which adds INT to spell damage but I'm not sure it's optimal due to loss of caster levels.
You could get a meat-shield cohort too. I think there's a good one in PhaedrusXY's sig (link to it in 'Links' section of Stealth Handbook).
There's a thread on the optimization of Alacritous Cogitation which has a list of spells to lower the casting time of.
The Malconvoker is a evil-sort-of class from Complete Scoundrel? There's a good handbook on it so check it out.
#7
hairrorist
Nov 14, 2008 12:37:22 Heh... the "blessing" grants big stat bonuses based on how much the character eats. And horrific minuses if he doesn't eat enough. He needs to eat at least ten pounds per day. It was obtained as a reward/punishment by beating some fey at an eating game.
#8
NiteCyper
Nov 14, 2008 22:06:29 You might want to look into the Travel(er's/ing) Cloak for food and the same with Ring of Sustenance. Decanter of Endless Water, heheh.
#9
Endarire
Nov 17, 2008 0:26:53 Magic Item Compendium has a Field Provisions Box. For 2000G, you can eat enough food for 15 people per day.
#10
tordak
Nov 17, 2008 6:53:21 The best rogue/caster class I know of is the Daggerspell Mage from CAd, but it's good and your most likely evil so you won't qualify unless you work something out with your DM. Most PrC mixing roguishness and spellcasting requires you to have some spellcasting to begin with. Of course assassin can cast arcane spells, but qualifying that way for a PrC most likely means that your going to build on your assassin spellcasting ability without the other assassin abilities, which isn't that great. I don't think magical orientation is your greatest option right now.

Assassin do cast arcane spells, so take arcane strike (CW) and razing strike (CAd); this will cover those occasion where your opponent is immune to sneak attack, synergies extremely well with 2-weapons fighting and gives you a more magical outlook. You'd also probably want to replace two-weapons defense by improved two-weapons fighting.

If you're ready to sacrifice a feat to take expanded knowledge haste as an additional 3rd level spell (so you need to be Assassin lv5 at least) and you get the permission from your DM, maybe you can try to became a Swiftblade. You'd still only be increasing your Assassin spellcasting ability though, but you get cool unnatural stuff.
#11
brainpiercing
Nov 17, 2008 11:10:13 Well, assassin is sub-optimal IMHO.

If you could somehow replace your progression with:
Rogue 2/Swash3/Transmuter (or Focused, if you can't get Incantatrix) Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer3/Divine Oracle 2/Incantatrix3/whatever

Keeps all the flavour, just gets better. The order of the levels isn't fixed. If you want more sneak-attack and less fighting prowess skip out on Abjurant Champion levels, and get Unseen seer earlier. Incantatrix earlier is also never bad. You'll be less meaty, but more versatile early on.

If you have to stick with assassin you could just also just add to your build:
Transmuter OR Diviner 1/Abjurant Champion until you can enver Unseen Seer3/Incantatrix3/Divine Oracle 2

What this does:
Transmuter gives you buffs and more Wraithstrikes
The only advantage of Diviner would be not giving up schools
Abjurant Champion is primarily a way to get BAB and HP while advancing casting, and all it needs is combat casting. (might need Martial weapon proficiency, that would be a bummer in this case, since it would require a level of Fighter or Swashbuckler)
Unseen Seer allows you to learn divination spells of any school: Enter the PHBII and Hunter's Eye (Ranger spell), which gives Sneak Attack dice
Divine Oracle increase the CL on Divinations for more SA dice.
Incantatrix gives free Persistent Spell with a skill check.

Basically any melee class will improve by adding a level of wizard and Abjurant Champion. Any roguish class will improve with Unseen Seer/Divine Oracle. Any caster with Incantatrix.
#12
liquid150
Nov 17, 2008 11:25:40 A good spellcasting option for the assassin might be beguiler. Just a thought.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hairrorist Nov 13, 2008 10:16:29	I've got a pair of characters that I need some help advancing. I just don't know -how- to go in the direction I want to go without irrevocably gimping them. Rufio: Rogue 5/Assassin 3 Two Weapon Fighting Two Weapon Defense Dodge He has outrageous stats: 18 Str / 19 Dex / 12 Con / 13 Wis / 17 Int / 16 Char. I'd like to take him in a more magically oriented direction, hopefully without sacrificing too much of his roguishness. Any ideas? Anton is a improved specialist (Evocation) Wizard 7. He can't cast Abjuration, Necromancy, or Enchantments. He has Empower Spell, Improved Init, Alacritous Cogitation, and Extend Spell. I'd like to take him in an evil direction....the more bizarre, otherworldly, etc, the better, but I need to retain full spellcasting potential. His main problem right now is probably his low, low AC of 16. Any ideas? Thanks in advance guys!
#2 CantripN Nov 13, 2008 10:38:38	I'd suggest Alienist (CA) for the Otherworldly (Evil/Crazy) flavoured Wizard. It's not an amazing PrC, but you don't really lose anything for taking it, and you get some semi-useful stuff (and awesome fluff). Another (more powerful, I think) version, would be Wild Soul (CM) (Unseelie, probably). Great fluff, but I'm not sure that's the kind of Evil you want. As for the Assassin, look at Swashbuckler 3 (at least) + the Daring Outlaw feat (CS) to gain a decent (and simple) Rogue. If you can retrain/rebuild the PCs, we can make them far better, though. Seriously, Two-Weapon Defense?! A Pure-class Wizard (though he is actually decent as far as feats and schools go, I admit)?
#3 hairrorist Nov 13, 2008 12:37:27	Yeah... I'm rusty after a two year D&D hiatus, and I just got my sourcebooks back, so now I want to try to salvage these guys as much as possible. Although I admit that it's kind of like asking how to turn a prius into a racecar. The Assassin was a throwaway character whom I decided to keep around after he contracted an unseelie "blessing" that gave him great stats, but requires him to consume 1/10th his body weight in food per day. So now I have to try and get what I can out of him. Are there any formal rules on retraining/rebuilding or is it just DM discretion?
#4 rebel7284 Nov 13, 2008 13:04:39	Are there any formal rules on retraining/rebuilding or is it just DM discretion? Player's Handbook 2
#5 idontmuchcareforit Nov 13, 2008 16:05:57	would have been alot better if we could have built it from scratch... I definitely appreciate your prius analogy. I would say keep advancing assassin. It will reduce the amount of depletable magic items you need. Assassin is no combat ace, but it will do ok for stealth operations.
#6 NiteCyper Nov 13, 2008 16:43:44	Other fashions of modifying past decisions about levels is Thought Bottle, Psychic Reformation (psionic power), DCFS (in my sig), The 'Shadow-walker' template gives you some SLAs since you want magic. Getting the Dark template (LA +1) or a (continuous) Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ten minutes/day) gets HiPS and some other bonuses. Incarnum is magical and has good stealth bonuses via Lamia Belt, Kruthik Claws, Fellmist Robe (virtual HiPS). Shedu Crown with the Mindsight feat is a great scouter's boon. For more Stealth tips, check my fragmented handbook. If I were that Rogue, I'd probably continue with Rogue or Assassin levels, maybe grab some combo like Practised Spellcaster and Unseen Seer for Hunter's Eye. It'd be a fun challenge to prove that plain Rogue(/Assassin)s can be good. Tome of Battle is another magical path to take. The good thing is that non-initiator class levels count towards your initiator level slightly so you can salvage some with that. Try Crusader, Extra Granted Maneuver, and Martial Study to be granted Cloak of Deception, Drain Vitality, Shadow Jaunt every round. Cloak of Deception means greater invisibility as long as you have the maneuver granted which you should with the Crusader's method of maneuver recovery. Along with Tome of Battle stuff, you can get the Shadow Blade feat which lets you apply DEX to melee damage with weapons of the Shadow Hand discipline. Fighter (Hit-and-Run tactics variant from DotU) levels can get you DEX to damage against flat-footed opponents within 30 ft. You might be interested in the 'Keen Intellect' feat (DMag?) which lets you apply INT to Will saves and certain WIS-based skills. Swashbuckler is good for free Weapon Finesse and, at third level, INT to damage via Insightful Strike as precision damage. Could you elaborate on this Unseelie blessing you've received? For your Wizard, check out the 'how to shove it to beatsticks' thread, a caster's resource to not getting hit. Warmage 1 gets Warmage's Edge which adds INT to spell damage but I'm not sure it's optimal due to loss of caster levels. You could get a meat-shield cohort too. I think there's a good one in PhaedrusXY's sig (link to it in 'Links' section of Stealth Handbook). There's a thread on the optimization of Alacritous Cogitation which has a list of spells to lower the casting time of. The Malconvoker is a evil-sort-of class from Complete Scoundrel? There's a good handbook on it so check it out.
#7 hairrorist Nov 14, 2008 12:37:22	Heh... the "blessing" grants big stat bonuses based on how much the character eats. And horrific minuses if he doesn't eat enough. He needs to eat at least ten pounds per day. It was obtained as a reward/punishment by beating some fey at an eating game.
#8 NiteCyper Nov 14, 2008 22:06:29	You might want to look into the Travel(er's/ing) Cloak for food and the same with Ring of Sustenance. Decanter of Endless Water, heheh.
#9 Endarire Nov 17, 2008 0:26:53	Magic Item Compendium has a Field Provisions Box. For 2000G, you can eat enough food for 15 people per day.
#10 tordak Nov 17, 2008 6:53:21	The best rogue/caster class I know of is the Daggerspell Mage from CAd, but it's good and your most likely evil so you won't qualify unless you work something out with your DM. Most PrC mixing roguishness and spellcasting requires you to have some spellcasting to begin with. Of course assassin can cast arcane spells, but qualifying that way for a PrC most likely means that your going to build on your assassin spellcasting ability without the other assassin abilities, which isn't that great. I don't think magical orientation is your greatest option right now. Assassin do cast arcane spells, so take arcane strike (CW) and razing strike (CAd); this will cover those occasion where your opponent is immune to sneak attack, synergies extremely well with 2-weapons fighting and gives you a more magical outlook. You'd also probably want to replace two-weapons defense by improved two-weapons fighting. If you're ready to sacrifice a feat to take expanded knowledge haste as an additional 3rd level spell (so you need to be Assassin lv5 at least) and you get the permission from your DM, maybe you can try to became a Swiftblade. You'd still only be increasing your Assassin spellcasting ability though, but you get cool unnatural stuff.
#11 brainpiercing Nov 17, 2008 11:10:13	Well, assassin is sub-optimal IMHO. If you could somehow replace your progression with: Rogue 2/Swash3/Transmuter (or Focused, if you can't get Incantatrix) Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer3/Divine Oracle 2/Incantatrix3/whatever Keeps all the flavour, just gets better. The order of the levels isn't fixed. If you want more sneak-attack and less fighting prowess skip out on Abjurant Champion levels, and get Unseen seer earlier. Incantatrix earlier is also never bad. You'll be less meaty, but more versatile early on. If you have to stick with assassin you could just also just add to your build: Transmuter OR Diviner 1/Abjurant Champion until you can enver Unseen Seer3/Incantatrix3/Divine Oracle 2 What this does: Transmuter gives you buffs and more Wraithstrikes The only advantage of Diviner would be not giving up schools Abjurant Champion is primarily a way to get BAB and HP while advancing casting, and all it needs is combat casting. (might need Martial weapon proficiency, that would be a bummer in this case, since it would require a level of Fighter or Swashbuckler) Unseen Seer allows you to learn divination spells of any school: Enter the PHBII and Hunter's Eye (Ranger spell), which gives Sneak Attack dice Divine Oracle increase the CL on Divinations for more SA dice. Incantatrix gives free Persistent Spell with a skill check. Basically any melee class will improve by adding a level of wizard and Abjurant Champion. Any roguish class will improve with Unseen Seer/Divine Oracle. Any caster with Incantatrix.
#12 liquid150 Nov 17, 2008 11:25:40	A good spellcasting option for the assassin might be beguiler. Just a thought.