I’m playing a human, 8th Level Druid Saint (Currently LA +1 as I’ve bought off 1 level) in a world that permits virtually all the books and rules (with a few exceptions). I’m thinking about how I want to shape my character’s feats going forward. My DM permits up to 3 flaws so of course I took 3. My current set of feats is as follows.
Level 1: Spell Focus (conj), Augment Summoning (human bonus feat), Ashbound (flaw), Sacred Vow (flaw), Vow of Poverty (flaw), Nymph’s Kiss (exalted).
Level 2: Touch of Golden Ice (exalted)
Level 3: Greenbound Summoning
Level 4: Intuitive Attack (exalted)
Level 6: Natural Spell, Animal Friend (exalted)
Level 8: Exalted Wild Shape (exalted)
So, going forward, I have 6 more exalted feats and 4 more level progression feats. I’ve got no idea what to take for the exalted feats; there doesn’t appear to be too much left. But I’d welcome any suggestions.
For the remaining level progression feats I’m currently considering among: Initiate of Nature, Rashemi Elemental Summoning, Dragon Wild Shape, Extend Spell, and Mindsight (at fifth level I had the good fortune to acquire the Telepathy 50’ ability). Which of these or any others would you take at 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th levels?
Thanks for your help.
Consider Sanctify natural attack as one of your exalted feats.
Extend, Dragon, Rashemi, Mindsight and finally Initiate. That's the order I'd use.
Consider Sanctify natural attack as one of your exalted feats.
Thanks, Tshern. Sanctify Natural Attack is an excellent suggestion.
If you have a few minutes, I'd love to know more about your thinking on the order you recommended for the feats.
For the remaining level progression feats I’m currently considering among: Initiate of Nature, Rashemi Elemental Summoning, Dragon Wild Shape, Extend Spell, and Mindsight (at fifth level I had the good fortune to acquire the Telepathy 50’ ability).
Dragon WS should be taken at 12th level. You can't take it before that and it's at the peak of its power from levels 12/13 to about 16.
Rashemi Elemental Summoning is great as soon as you get Huge Elementals. Therefore, level 15 is your best bet. Before that, you are probably still better off summoning (multiple) Greenbound animals.
I think this is good advice. I'm struggling because all five of these feats are solid, it seems to me, and can't decide which to leave off.
Dragon Wild Shape gives just excellent Wild Shape options.
Extend Spell is wonderful for a druid, not only because of the SNA but also for things like creeping cold, entangle, etc.
Initiate of Nature will let me attract a cohort of helpers and gives access to some pretty good spells.
Rashemi Elemental Summoning makes supercharged elemental summons at high levels.
Mindsight is a very cool feat that puts the druid in touch with much of the life in the immediate area and it can make the druid an excellent scout.
Am I overlooking other top-notch feats to consider?
Multiattack+Imp. Multiattack might be nice.
Gatekeeper Initiate is rather handy, as is Initiate of Nature.
Playing an Azurin and taking Incarnum feats is also an interesting option.
Gatekeeper Initiate is an intriguing idea. Mind Blank alone may be worth it. Admittedly, I'm still leaning toward perception for myself (Mindsight) over blocking perception.
I suppose saint gives telepathy?
no he got it thru the game somehow...notice:
For the remaining level progression feats I’m currently considering among: Initiate of Nature, Rashemi Elemental Summoning, Dragon Wild Shape, Extend Spell, and Mindsight (at fifth level I had the good fortune to acquire the Telepathy 50’ ability). Which of these or any others would you take at 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th levels?
:D
Anyway, I'm considering the Mindsight feat as a mechanism to make the telepathy more useful.
I'm starting to wonder whether taking dragon wildshape is worth it. Can anyone help me think through this?
It depends. In terms of pure melee/ranged damage output, it's probably not the best option.
However, DWS offers amazing flexibility and a few potentially broken options, especially if you consider dragons outside the MM. My personal experiences with playing a DWS druid were extremely positive. I enjoyed having a toolbox of special abilities/immunities to choose from. Note that you can, via DWS, gain access to certain abilities that can duplicate certain magic items (which you can't have). Here are the main benefits:
One big advantage is the toughness of dragon forms. You generally get high AC, dragon immunities + one or more additional immunities plus special qualities, such as Spell Resistance. Good choices here (for example):
- Very Young Silver Dragon: immune to two elements: cold & acid
- Young Steel Dragon: SR 30 vs. 1st-4th level spells, SR 20 vs. other spells
- Young Shadow Dragon: +13 natural armor, immunity to energy drain, SR 15, Shadow Blend
The second big feature are AoE attacks (breath weapon). Some dragons have nice save-or-suck effects, e.g.:
- Silver Dragon: Cone of paralyzing gas: paralyzed for 1D6+2 rounds
- Faerie Dragon: Cone of Gas, dazed for 1D6 rounds
- Shadow Dragon: cone of energy drain, loose one level
- Steel Dragon: cone of poisonous gas, primary & secondary effect: 3 CON damage
Next, dragons have very flexible movement modes. Next to a generally very fast fly speed (although with usually poor maneuverability), dragons may have:
- Silver, Deep, Rust: burrow
- Faerie: flight at perfect mobility
- Several dragons: swim
Finally, dragon shapes confer certain excellent abilities:
- Deep Dragon: True Seeing (!)
- Silver Dragon: Alternate Form
- Rust Dragon: Frightful Presence, DR, Metal Resistance, Rusting Bite
- Faerie Dragon: Water Breathing, Scent
- Shadow Dragon: Shadow Blend
As I've said before, DWS is excellent from level 12-13 on until about 16, when other wildshape options might provide more power. However, that is for the average druid, not for a dedicated summoner (which you seem to be). In your case, the combination of a flight-capable form with extremely flexible defensive attributes (and extra abilities / offensive powers) is simply awesome.
At least until you get Shapechange.
:D
:D
Level 1: Spell Focus (conj), Augment Summoning (human bonus feat), Ashbound (flaw), Sacred Vow (flaw), Vow of Poverty (flaw), Nymph’s Kiss (exalted).
Level 2: Touch of Golden Ice (exalted)
Level 3: Greenbound Summoning
Level 4: Intuitive Attack (exalted)
Level 6: Natural Spell, Animal Friend (exalted)
Level 8: Exalted Wild Shape (exalted)
Level 9: Extend Spell
Level 10: Sanctify Natural Attack (exalted)
Level 12: Dragon Wild Shape; Exalted Wild Shape (exalted)
Level 14: Gift of Faith (exalted)
Level 15: Rashemi Elemental Summoning
Level 16: Nimbus of Light (exalted)
Level 18: Mindsight; Holy Radiance (exalted)
Level 20: Sitgmata (exalted)
Level 1: Spell Focus (conj), Augment Summoning (human bonus feat), Ashbound (flaw), Sacred Vow (flaw), Vow of Poverty (flaw), Nymph’s Kiss (exalted).
Level 2: Touch of Golden Ice (exalted)
Level 3: Greenbound Summoning
Level 4: Intuitive Attack (exalted)
Level 6: Natural Spell, Animal Friend (exalted)
Level 8: Exalted Wild Shape (exalted)
Level 9: Extend Spell
Level 10: Sanctify Natural Attack (exalted)
Level 12: Dragon Wild Shape; Consecrate Spell (exalted)
Level 14: Gift of Faith (exalted)
Level 15: Summon Elemental (reserve feat)
Level 16: Nimbus of Light (exalted)
Level 18: Mindsight; Holy Radiance (exalted)
Level 20: Sitgmata (exalted)
Summon Elemental (reserve feat)... will give you an Unlimited supply of Large Elementals(of any type) to do whatever you need... thus it is a great resource for a character with limited resources(ie. "no material things")
:D
Looks good. If you're just filling in Exalted feats, also consider the metamagic that lets you deal non-lethal damage or Sanctify Spell.
Thanks Blade. I appreciate your effort here. Unfortunately, I'm a little confused.
I'm not sure that the metamagic feats in BoED count as "exalted feats" for purposes of the VoP bonus feats. They don't have the "exalted" identifier and they don't appear on the list of exalted feats on the table of feats in BoED. Are there metamagic feats that are also "exalted"?
Also, I'm not sure what you mbean by "Sanctify Spell" above. If you're referring to a feat, I'm not familiar with it. If it's the spell "Sanctify," I'm not sure what you mean here?
I'd welcome any clarifications. -- ShriekingDrake
Thanks Blade. I appreciate your effort here. Unfortunately, I'm a little confused.
I'm not sure that the metamagic feats in BoED count as "exalted feats" for purposes of the VoP bonus feats. They don't have the "exalted" identifier and they don't appear on the list of exalted feats on the table of feats in BoED. Are there metamagic feats that are also "exalted"?
Also, I'm not sure what you mbean by "Sanctify Spell" above. If you're referring to a feat, I'm not familiar with it. If it's the spell "Sanctify," I'm not sure what you mean here?
I'd welcome any clarifications. -- ShriekingDrake
I was shooting from the hip (as I usually do) and probably got some stuff confused. If it doesn' specify [Exalted] then you can't do it without DM permission, which I encourage you to try to get. The Sanctify Spell feat I might be confusing with Consecrate Spell.
+1 spell level
1. Spell gains the [good] subtype.
2. Half the damage dealt by the spell is Untyped, so it is not blocked by any form of energy resistance.
Purify Spell[Metamagic](BoED p44)req:Good alignment
+1 spell level
1. The spell gains the [good] subtype.
2. Neutral creatures take ½ damage.
3. Good creatures take no damage.
4. Evil Outsiders have the die size of the damage dice increased by one category (i.e., 1d6 becomes a 1d8, a 1d8 becomes 2d6, etc.)
:D
consecrate Spell is awesome.... heres what i would suggest... change to this:
Level 1: Spell Focus (conj), Augment Summoning (human bonus feat), Ashbound (flaw), Sacred Vow (flaw), Vow of Poverty (flaw), Nymph’s Kiss (exalted).
Level 2: Touch of Golden Ice (exalted)
Level 3: Greenbound Summoning
Level 4: Intuitive Attack (exalted)
Level 6: Natural Spell, Animal Friend (exalted)
Level 8: Exalted Wild Shape (exalted)
Level 9: Extend Spell
Level 10: Sanctify Natural Attack (exalted)
Level 12: Dragon Wild Shape; Consecrate Spell (exalted)
Level 14: Gift of Faith (exalted)
Level 15: Summon Elemental (reserve feat)
Level 16: Nimbus of Light (exalted)
Level 18: Mindsight; Holy Radiance (exalted)
Level 20: Sitgmata (exalted)
Summon Elemental (reserve feat)... will give you an Unlimited supply of Large Elementals(of any type) to do whatever you need... thus it is a great resource for a character with limited resources(ie. "no material things")
:D
Thanks, as always, Carnivore, for your excellent advice.
I'm not sure VoP will permit the metamagic feats to count as "exalted" feats. What do you think?
Also, I'm not seeing what the real benefits of summon elemental reserve feat would be. I'm sure I'm overlooking something. Could you help me out?
With much appreciation -- ShriekingDrake
Level 1: Spell Focus (conj), Augment Summoning (human bonus feat), Ashbound (flaw), Sacred Vow (flaw), Vow of Poverty (flaw), Nymph’s Kiss (exalted).
Level 2: Touch of Golden Ice (exalted)
Level 3: Greenbound Summoning
Level 4: Intuitive Attack (exalted)
Level 6: Natural Spell, Animal Friend (exalted)
Level 8: Exalted Wild Shape (exalted)
Level 9: Extend Spell
Level 10: Sanctify Natural Attack (exalted)
Level 12: Dragon Wild Shape; Exalted Companion (exalted)
Level 14: Gift of Faith (exalted)
Level 15: Summon Elemental (reserve feat)
Level 16: Nimbus of Light (exalted)
Level 18: Mindsight; Holy Radiance (exalted)
Level 20: Sitgmata (exalted)
Summon Elemental (reserve feat) .... is extremely useful... since it allows you to summon any Large Elemental you need... the duration is = Spell level of Reserve Spell used... always keep Summon Natures Ally IX uncast, and then the Duration is always 9 rounds... when it expires summon another... you have an Unlimited Supply.
uses for summon elemental :
to walk down a hallway .... to check for traps
Open Doors and Chests .... to check for traps
Flanking Partner
attack things Vulnerable to its element(since you can choose what kind you want to Summon, exa: vs White Dragon... summon Fire Elemental)
etc.....
they basiclly are unlimited supply of Cannon-Fodder.... let the enemy use its resources up on them, before you attack
the uses are up to your imagination
:D
of all the Exalted feats.... i just checked... the Metamagic feats are not in the group of Exalted feats.... so try this instead:
Level 12: Dragon Wild Shape; Exalted Companion (exalted)
Level 14: Gift of Faith (exalted)
Level 15: Summon Elemental (reserve feat)
Summon Elemental (reserve feat) .... is extremely useful... since it allows you to summon any Large Elemental you need... the duration is = Spell level of Reserve Spell used... always keep Summon Natures Ally IX uncast, and then the Duration is always 9 rounds... when it expires summon another... you have an Unlimited Supply.
uses for summon elemental :
to walk down a hallway .... to check for traps
Open Doors and Chests .... to check for traps
Flanking Partner
attack things Vulnerable to its element(since you can choose what kind you want to Summon, exa: vs White Dragon... summon Fire Elemental)
etc.....
they basiclly are unlimited supply of Cannon-Fodder.... let the enemy use its resources up on them, before you attack
the uses are up to your imagination
:D
So, I have to say that the Summon Elemental Reserve feat is pretty impressive. Will it work even with an unused but able to be spontaneously case SNA or would the druid have to actually prepare the SNA? I found the text surrounding Reserve Feats to be a little enigmatic.
I also wondered about the language that says "The elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell." Would feats like Augment Summoning apply in this instance? The Summon Elemental Reserve Feat grants a Supernatural ability, but the text says to treat the summoned creature as if it were summoned by a spell. My first inclination is that I could not apply Augment Summoning, for example. But I would be interested to know if others have different thoughts here.
I can see where the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat would have more utility than Rashemi Elemental Summoning, even if the latter produces a more powerful combatant. I think I'm convinced that the former is more practical than the latter. I'm sure there are tenable perspectives on the other side. I'd welcome hearing them.
I did note that I don't seem to get my choice of any elemental, RAW, but I get to choose from among air, earth, fire, and water elementals, which isn't all bad. But I can see some real benefit in summoning shadow or storm elementals. I guess you can't have everything. Is there any reasonable interpretation that would allow me to access para-elementals or other creatures of the elemental type?
As for exalted companion, I might move it later in the exalted chain . . . I've got to think about it.
Many thanks -- ShriekingDrake
So, I have to say that the Summon Elemental Reserve feat is pretty impressive. Will it work even with an unused but able to be spontaneously case SNA or would the druid have to actually prepare the SNA? I found the text surrounding Reserve Feats to be a little enigmatic.
as long as you can cast a SNA spell..... prepared or Spontaneous.... you can use the feat..... reserve feats need to have a Spell slot available to use.... since sorcerors can use them.... they dont prepare any spells
I also wondered about the language that says "The elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell." Would feats like Augment Summoning apply in this instance? The Summon Elemental Reserve Feat grants a Supernatural ability, but the text says to treat the summoned creature as if it were summoned by a spell. My first inclination is that I could not apply Augment Summoning, for example. But I would be interested to know if others have different thoughts here.
that would be up to the DM to decide... i would not have any problems with it.. and i would allow it, but your DM may not
I did note that I don't seem to get my choice of any elemental, RAW, but I get to choose from among air, earth, fire, and water elementals, which isn't all bad. But I can see some real benefit in summoning shadow or storm elementals. I guess you can't have everything. Is there any reasonable interpretation that would allow me to access para-elementals or other creatures of the elemental type?
sorry for the confusion..... i meant "Any Elemental(air, earth, fire, and water)"...... unless your DM allows the other types... if so great
the feat specifies only "Elementals" , not "Elemental Type".... so you couldnt summon Mephits or other "Elemental type" creatures
:D
I can see where the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat would have more utility than Rashemi Elemental Summoning, even if the latter produces a more powerful combatant. I think I'm convinced that the former is more practical than the latter. I'm sure there are tenable perspectives on the other side. I'd welcome hearing them.
I did note that I don't seem to get my choice of any elemental, RAW, but I
First, I think this feat selection is VERY well optimized for a VoP-Druid/Saint. I don't think it gets much better than this without going munster.
I can't say that my view here is strong, but do think RES is pretty darn nice, if you can get it. I've never played with SER and do wonder if it gets used all that much? I also wonder about any pressure you might feel to keep your high slots unused.
I don't think you can go wrong either way, but I'd want to hear more from those who've actually played with SER to get a sense of not only its utility, but if you actually used it.
Deckinhand