Attempting to optimize for charge damage in 3.5 - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Attempting to optimize for charge damage in 3.5

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
daedhaed
Mar 26, 2011 14:16:28 Half-Orc
1 barbarian
3 Fighter

Looking to go Frenzied Beserker at lvl 7

Feats
1 Intimidating Rage
2 Power Attack
3 Cleave
3 Power Lunge

Looking to improve this.
#2
hellehundt
Mar 26, 2011 17:38:26 with the barbarian you can drop the speed increase to get pounce, Complete Champion

Interesting other thing to combine with pounce on an unarmed build would be to get Flying Kick(complete warrior): +1d12 dmg on unarmed attack on a charge
#3
aelryinth
Mar 26, 2011 19:25:09 The classic Uber Charger build is:

Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce (full attack on Charge)
Power Attack
Shock trooper (drop AC for Power Attack on a Charge)
Leap attack (+1 to Power Attack Multiple)

Armed with a Big 2H Weapon of Valor (doubles damage on a Charge). Level 6, all done.

Basically, you charge, dump all BAB into Power Attack for 2x (Weapon + Str x 1.5 + PAx3). bring spatula and tweezers for cleanup.

From there you wait until you can pick up Frenzied Berserker, figure out some way not to kill the rest of the party, and get the super rage/frenzy/supreme Power Attack for abuse, and go to town.

==Aelryinth
#4
phoenix00
Mar 27, 2011 0:46:12 The hood is a charger taken to an extreme that combines things such as leap attack and battle jump. Even if you don't use battle jump the guide tells you all the tricks of chargers so just take what you want.

The most recent version is here (the old version is still on these boards.)
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
#5
daedhaed
Mar 28, 2011 17:09:39 I am a lion totem barbarian. Planed on taking shocktrooper and Leap Attack and also headlong rush.
Also, where is weapon of valor located.
#6
aelryinth
Mar 28, 2011 19:48:35 Valorous weapons are in the Book of Champions (isn't that the same book as Lion Totem barbarian?)

==Aelryinth
#7
eardatch
Apr 06, 2011 8:18:55 Unapproachable East, no? I presume you meant Complete Champion by Book of Champions, yes that's where Lion Totem barb is from.
#8
lichman47
Aug 17, 2011 4:06:25 I'd only take two lvls of fighter as you don't get any special abilities with lvl 3 unless you're planning on taking more lvls later.

I'm helping one of my players build a charager currently and here's what I've come up with that hasn't already been said...

Rihno Hide - adds 2d6 damage on a charge DMG p220

Powerful Charge - must be medium or bigger and BAB +1, adds 1d8 per size category on a charge (works for one attack)

Greater Powerful Charge - must be medium or bigger BAB +4 and Powerful Charge, treat your character as being a size bigger (so medium character gets 2d8 instead on just the 1) Both feats are in Miniature's Handbook p27

Hope that helps and happy hunting ;)

#9
Smite_Thy_Enemiesof_Metal
Aug 26, 2011 22:45:05 I read another post a while back and someone recommended Power Lunge feat. It would synergize well with charge attacks. It first appeared in Sword and Fist (that might be 3.0), but it may have been implemented to 3.5 through some other book.

Power Lunge
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +3, Power Attack.
Benefit: A successful attack roll during a charge allows you to add double your normal Strength modifier to the attack's damage, regardless of whether you're using one- or two-handed weapons. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you charged.
#10
Tempest_Stormwind
Aug 27, 2011 12:00:49
I read another post a while back and someone recommended Power Lunge feat. It would synergize well with charge attacks. It first appeared in Sword and Fist (that might be 3.0), but it may have been implemented to 3.5 through some other book.

Power Lunge
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +3, Power Attack.
Benefit: A successful attack roll during a charge allows you to add double your normal Strength modifier to the attack's damage, regardless of whether you're using one- or two-handed weapons. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you charged.

Not only is it 3e-only, it's not going to be worth it. The closest that this got was Powerful Charge / Greater Powerful Charge, and those just add damage dice. (Sort of like Lichman's suggestions.)

The problem is, bonus damage dice are not what you want when you're charging. Charging is perfect for damage because there are a lot of hard multipliers to tap into (i.e. Valorous weapons deal double damage on a charge, Battle Jump (if you can qualify) doubles your charge damage, and so on). This combines with tacit multipliers (Pounce) and Power Attack (via Leap Attack) to produce some sick, sick results.

For instance, let's go pure Fighter 6 as a basis "textbook" ubercharger. (This is the most basic you can go with charging - it will NOT include Pounce, since I generally hate Complete Champion, which made pouncing impossibly easy. ) It looks like this:
1: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack
2: Combat Reflexes
3: Combat Expertise
4: Improved Trip
5: (Dead level - the textbook dead level, since you play identically to Fighter 4 except with slightly larger numbers. Ugh.)
6: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper
(I hate making characters with just one "trick", so here I've added in basic AoO tanking. This means you're a missile during your turn and a snare on your opponents').
Weapon: +1 Guisarme. (Aiming for Valorous as soon as possible - an artificer at this level could apply it to my weapon for a short duration, though.)

On my turn, I can charge, easily passing a DC 10 Jump check, and Power Attack for -6, which is greater than -5, so I use Shock Trooper to assign that penalty to my AC. (I'm using a reach weapon, so enemies will have trouble getting close to me, although I'll be vulnerable to arrows and rays.) Power Attack grants me +2 per -1 I took since I'm using a 2-handed weapon, so my bonus damage from Power Attack is +12. Leap Attack kicks in, tripling my bonus damage from Power Attack (to +36). My average damage climbs to 2d4+1+(1.5 Str)+36 = 42+1.5 Strength. Since Power Attack lasts the whole round, that carries on over to my AoOs - so when the enemies get their turn, they move, provoking an AoO, which I use to trip them, and then I gain a bonus attack from Improved Trip (against a prone target, which has -4 AC vs melee). Then they have to stand up if they want to do anything, and standing up invites ANOTHER big attack.

Power Lunge may contribute to the charge damage (+0.5 Strength total damage), but it cannot make up for that degree of battlefield control, nor the increased damage as a result of that. So it will be difficult to justify including pre-6th. And after 6th, you're probably diversifying into other areas too. Remember, each -1 you take on Power Attack while leaping amounts to +6 damage - to match this with Power Lunge, you'd need a Strength of 32. (The other "advantage" to Power Lunge, the ability to apply this to one-handed weapons, isn't even worth considering, since Power Attack, Leap Attack, and so on aren't worth using one-handed if you can help it.)

And this isn't even terribly optimized - it;s the napkin-sketch version.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 daedhaed Mar 26, 2011 14:16:28	Half-Orc 1 barbarian 3 Fighter Looking to go Frenzied Beserker at lvl 7 Feats 1 Intimidating Rage 2 Power Attack 3 Cleave 3 Power Lunge Looking to improve this.
#2 hellehundt Mar 26, 2011 17:38:26	with the barbarian you can drop the speed increase to get pounce, Complete Champion Interesting other thing to combine with pounce on an unarmed build would be to get Flying Kick(complete warrior): +1d12 dmg on unarmed attack on a charge
#3 aelryinth Mar 26, 2011 19:25:09	The classic Uber Charger build is: Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce (full attack on Charge) Power Attack Shock trooper (drop AC for Power Attack on a Charge) Leap attack (+1 to Power Attack Multiple) Armed with a Big 2H Weapon of Valor (doubles damage on a Charge). Level 6, all done. Basically, you charge, dump all BAB into Power Attack for 2x (Weapon + Str x 1.5 + PAx3). bring spatula and tweezers for cleanup. From there you wait until you can pick up Frenzied Berserker, figure out some way not to kill the rest of the party, and get the super rage/frenzy/supreme Power Attack for abuse, and go to town. ==Aelryinth
#4 phoenix00 Mar 27, 2011 0:46:12	The hood is a charger taken to an extreme that combines things such as leap attack and battle jump. Even if you don't use battle jump the guide tells you all the tricks of chargers so just take what you want. The most recent version is here (the old version is still on these boards.) brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
#5 daedhaed Mar 28, 2011 17:09:39	I am a lion totem barbarian. Planed on taking shocktrooper and Leap Attack and also headlong rush. Also, where is weapon of valor located.
#6 aelryinth Mar 28, 2011 19:48:35	Valorous weapons are in the Book of Champions (isn't that the same book as Lion Totem barbarian?) ==Aelryinth
#7 eardatch Apr 06, 2011 8:18:55	Unapproachable East, no? I presume you meant Complete Champion by Book of Champions, yes that's where Lion Totem barb is from.
#8 lichman47 Aug 17, 2011 4:06:25	I'd only take two lvls of fighter as you don't get any special abilities with lvl 3 unless you're planning on taking more lvls later. I'm helping one of my players build a charager currently and here's what I've come up with that hasn't already been said... Rihno Hide - adds 2d6 damage on a charge DMG p220 Powerful Charge - must be medium or bigger and BAB +1, adds 1d8 per size category on a charge (works for one attack) Greater Powerful Charge - must be medium or bigger BAB +4 and Powerful Charge, treat your character as being a size bigger (so medium character gets 2d8 instead on just the 1) Both feats are in Miniature's Handbook p27 Hope that helps and happy hunting ;)
#9 Smite_Thy_Enemiesof_Metal Aug 26, 2011 22:45:05	I read another post a while back and someone recommended Power Lunge feat. It would synergize well with charge attacks. It first appeared in Sword and Fist (that might be 3.0), but it may have been implemented to 3.5 through some other book. Power Lunge Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +3, Power Attack. Benefit: A successful attack roll during a charge allows you to add double your normal Strength modifier to the attack's damage, regardless of whether you're using one- or two-handed weapons. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you charged.
#10 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 27, 2011 12:00:49	I read another post a while back and someone recommended Power Lunge feat. It would synergize well with charge attacks. It first appeared in Sword and Fist (that might be 3.0), but it may have been implemented to 3.5 through some other book. Power Lunge Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +3, Power Attack. Benefit: A successful attack roll during a charge allows you to add double your normal Strength modifier to the attack's damage, regardless of whether you're using one- or two-handed weapons. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you charged. Not only is it 3e-only, it's not going to be worth it. The closest that this got was Powerful Charge / Greater Powerful Charge, and those just add damage dice. (Sort of like Lichman's suggestions.) The problem is, bonus damage dice are not what you want when you're charging. Charging is perfect for damage because there are a lot of hard multipliers to tap into (i.e. Valorous weapons deal double damage on a charge, Battle Jump (if you can qualify) doubles your charge damage, and so on). This combines with tacit multipliers (Pounce) and Power Attack (via Leap Attack) to produce some sick, sick results. For instance, let's go pure Fighter 6 as a basis "textbook" ubercharger. (This is the most basic you can go with charging - it will NOT include Pounce, since I generally hate Complete Champion, which made pouncing impossibly easy. ) It looks like this: 1: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack 2: Combat Reflexes 3: Combat Expertise 4: Improved Trip 5: (Dead level - the textbook dead level, since you play identically to Fighter 4 except with slightly larger numbers. Ugh.) 6: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper (I hate making characters with just one "trick", so here I've added in basic AoO tanking. This means you're a missile during your turn and a snare on your opponents'). Weapon: +1 Guisarme. (Aiming for Valorous as soon as possible - an artificer at this level could apply it to my weapon for a short duration, though.) On my turn, I can charge, easily passing a DC 10 Jump check, and Power Attack for -6, which is greater than -5, so I use Shock Trooper to assign that penalty to my AC. (I'm using a reach weapon, so enemies will have trouble getting close to me, although I'll be vulnerable to arrows and rays.) Power Attack grants me +2 per -1 I took since I'm using a 2-handed weapon, so my bonus damage from Power Attack is +12. Leap Attack kicks in, tripling my bonus damage from Power Attack (to +36). My average damage climbs to 2d4+1+(1.5 Str)+36 = 42+1.5 Strength. Since Power Attack lasts the whole round, that carries on over to my AoOs - so when the enemies get their turn, they move, provoking an AoO, which I use to trip them, and then I gain a bonus attack from Improved Trip (against a prone target, which has -4 AC vs melee). Then they have to stand up if they want to do anything, and standing up invites ANOTHER big attack. Power Lunge may contribute to the charge damage (+0.5 Strength total damage), but it cannot make up for that degree of battlefield control, nor the increased damage as a result of that. So it will be difficult to justify including pre-6th. And after 6th, you're probably diversifying into other areas too. Remember, each -1 you take on Power Attack while leaping amounts to +6 damage - to match this with Power Lunge, you'd need a Strength of 32. (The other "advantage" to Power Lunge, the ability to apply this to one-handed weapons, isn't even worth considering, since Power Attack, Leap Attack, and so on aren't worth using one-handed if you can help it.) And this isn't even terribly optimized - it;s the napkin-sketch version.