| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1urpriestJun 29, 2010 3:54:17 | I'm running a 3.5 campaign in which some minor villains are characters from a 4e campaign. Most of them transfer fine, but I've had difficulty figuring out what to do with the Avenger. I want a character with divine flavor, light-to-no armor, and a focus on melee combat. The character must be a dwarf (though subrace can potentially vary) and must wield a greataxe or similar (the 4e character uses an execution axe). If there's a form of Hood that functions as a divine gish that would probably be appropriate, though I'd want to tone down the power some, as the group is not particularly optimized. Any suggestions? |
| #2Omen_of_PeaceJun 29, 2010 4:35:30 | Cloistered Cleric (UA variant) / Ordained Champion (CC) would be a good start. You didn't mention target level(s), available books, etc. |
| #3urpriestJun 29, 2010 5:37:22 | The character will be somewhere between CR 6 and 9, depending on when the players fight him. Pretty much all books are available, though I'd prefer to avoid FR/Eberron specific stuff, Dragon, or UA (cloisered cleric seems fine) and I've banned ToB and incarnum. As for Ordained Champion, the initial character worships Moradin, but I've been operating under a "4e gods and 3.5 gods aren't necessarily the same even if they share the same name" rule, so changing over to Heironeous should be fine, though a bit less dwarfy. I'd probably want to throw in something that incentivizes light/no armor though, with Monk being the default choice. |
| #4tr0llmanJun 29, 2010 6:24:24 | Monk, possibly Cleric/Sacred Fist. Add feat that allows Greataxe as a monk special weapon. |
| #5urpriestJun 29, 2010 6:36:10 | Add feat that allows Greataxe as a monk special weapon. Is there a particular feat that does this, or are you suggesting homebrewing one? |
| #6Maat_MonsJun 29, 2010 12:56:50 | Let's assume you put the best score from the elite array, 15, in wisdom, add the 2 ability increases from being at least 8th level to wisdom, and buy the best periapt of wisdom a 9th level NPC can afford, +2. That gives a wisdom score of 19, meaning a +4 to ac from monk. Since +4 AC is also what a chain shirt gives, I don't see monk as advantageous. A couple of levels of swordsage might be good though. |
| #7suin_bahhar_02Jun 29, 2010 20:07:23 | Mystic Ranger reflavoured to a non nature divine patron might be an elegant solution. |
| #8GavinfoxJul 01, 2010 23:27:05 | Yea, Mystic Ranger for Divine Strikers, for sure. Though Mystic Ranger might have to be edited to focus more on melee some, hmm... |
| #9urpriestJul 02, 2010 23:48:35 | Yeah, I looked at Mystic Ranger, and while it does the Divine Gish thing well, it lacks melee support. If the character is wielding a greataxe then they won't use their combat style, and they'd need a level of something like fighter to gain proficiency (since mystic rangers lose martial melee weapons). As such, they wouldn't have any incentive to stick to light armor. Dipping monk can fix that, but as Maat_Mons points out, it's not really an incentive so much as a stopgap to keep the character's AC from falling completely down the toilet. Swordsage would be ideal, but my players would cry foul since I've banned them from using Tome of Battle, and I try to be fair and apply restrictions like that evenhandedly. What would be nice would be a way to trade combat style for something that still requires light armor but benefits a two-handed weapon wielder. Does anyone know of a variant like that? |
| #10Omen_of_PeaceJul 03, 2010 8:29:41 | It took me a while to understand what you wanted, since it goes against how we usually think. You could go Monk 1/Cleric X with a domain that gives Mage Armor (Force, Spell) - that way he'll get a slightly better AC with no armor on. Get the Spontaneous Domain variant if he needs to cast Mage Armor several times a day. (Btw, Avengers can't wear light armor nowadays if they want their bonus.) |
| #11urpriestJul 03, 2010 17:20:58 | It took me a while to understand what you wanted, since it goes against how we usually think. Mage armor would shore things up, and I can easily claim that the ambiguous dwaren deity the character worships is a proponent of some sort of runecrafting Spell or Force domain areas. It's a pity that the character couldn't flurry with a greataxe, but this might at least make the archetype viable. While I'm aware that Avengers are restricted to cloth if they want to use Armor of Faith, I feel like light armor still holds close to the feel of the class when converted to 3.5. Since light armor isn't necessarily very obvious, the look of the character and its mobile fighting style can remain intact. Just looked up Shadowbane Stalker from Complete Adventurer, and it actually looks pretty good for the flavor I'm looking for. Ninja for the sneak attack dice would also serve to make going unarmored work, and War domain on a cleric could give the greataxe. With this, I'm looking at something like Ninja 1/Cleric 4/Shadowbane X, maybe trading out cleric levels for rogue or more ninja for sneak attack, additional sudden strike, or ghost step. |
| #12GavinfoxJul 03, 2010 18:09:42 | Mystic Ranger + one of the alternate combat styles from Dragon 326? Strong Arm, Maybe? Suitably modified per the mystic ranger's changes to ranged combat, to make it focus on certain types of melee weapons only, also modifying the ranger's proficiency to be appropriate from the Strong Arm style? it'd take some houseruling... but it'd be doable! |
| #13urpriestJul 16, 2010 23:03:35 | Not to bump unwarrantedly, but I believe I have found the class that inspired the 4e Avenger. I present: The Avenger. |
| #14Omen_of_PeaceJul 17, 2010 6:28:07 | Actually no. This Avenger is the non-Evil Assassin, which WotC made when they realized that people wanted to play assassins (cause they're cool) and that they had painted themselves into a corner with their overly restrictive alignement rules. ![]() |
| #15urpriestJul 17, 2010 12:17:43 | Actually no. This Avenger is the non-Evil Assassin, which WotC made when they realized that people wanted to play assassins (cause they're cool) and that they had painted themselves into a corner with their overly restrictive alignement rules. And the 4e Avenger is different because...? ![]() |
| #16Omen_of_PeaceJul 17, 2010 13:02:01 | ![]() Because they are divine rather than arcane, because they hit you in the face with big weapons rather than sneaking in shadows, because they don't know anything about poison? There's an Assassin class in 4E, and the 3.5E AvengerAssassin is closer to that. |
| #17awaken_D_M_golemJul 17, 2010 14:32:37 | OoP's build of Something 1 / Cleric X works fine. The Something could go a little later than 1st level, as an adaptation to whatever the home game is doing. Power wise I've argued elsewhere, that 4th level spells, Cleric or otherwise, in 3e / 3.5e can be above and beyond the usual range for the entire 4e game. You could go this Avenger-ish concept early, and then go 3e Avenger just for the feel of it. It would be sub-par for 3e builds, but still way over the rainbow for 4e. So yeah, do both , and have crazy fun. |
| #18urpriestJul 17, 2010 15:58:54 |
Just to be clear, I think the class itself is probably supposed to be Slayer-of-Domiel-ish. 4e Avengers do sneak (hence the cloth armor), and while they're divine rather than arcane, 3.0 Assassins were arcane primarily because they needed some reason to have magical abilities and their flavor made divine patrons implausible. Big weapons were almost certainly included because they had a lack of big-weapon strikers (and 4e Assassins are also big weapon strikers anyway). The thing is, Slayer of Domiel and the like are part of what motivated the 3.5 Avenger. People were complaining that certain material, in particular the Book of Exalted Deeds, was just the stuff already designed for evil but with good tagged on to it, and that's precisely what the joke of the 3.5 Avenger was apropos of. 4e's Avenger is similarly a combat style and image already covered by things like Assassin and Rogue, just flavored Divine, and I think that its name was an intentional allusion to the 3.5 Avenger and its motivation. I'm not planning to use the 3.5 Avenger for this character...for one, it's a joke class, and for another, the Shadowbane Stalker does that flavor with built-in divine gish support. I just thought it was interesting to see this connection. Sort of like when I realized where all the White Raven 4e maneuver names came from. |