Whats the verdict? Are bloodlines horribly stupid or are they overly unbalanced? The issue seems very polarizing and I think I now know why. We haven't been giving Bloodlines a fair shot at as a balanced variant rule.
In digging through various threads on Bloodlines I see people doing pretty much every possible kind of implementation of Bloodline levels based off their varying interpretations. But they all end up conflicting themselves because they all seem to not have the right interpretation.
I would like the boards to consider this thread to be THE first and fore-most accepted implementation of the Bloodlines variant, due to the thread's depth.
We will know we have succeeded when:
Given our reading of Bloodlines we would, if allowed, use their slight boost for any character. Like flaws, I see a small be steady gain to be made to most any build so long as we temper our reading of Bloodlines.
Straight from the source (with my bolding for mechanics and italics for intent):
SRD:
Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. Instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).
If the character does not take a class level of bloodline before reaching the character level indicated on the table, he gains no further bloodline traits and must take a 20% penalty on all future XP gains. As soon as he meets the minimum bloodline level, he gains all bloodline abilities due him according to his character level, and the XP penalty no longer applies.
For example, A 1st-level character with a major bloodline (silver dragon) receives a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks as a bloodline trait. When he reaches 2nd character level, he gains the Alertness feat as a bloodline trait. Before he reaches 3rd character level, he must take a level of bloodline in order to continue gaining bloodline traits. if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains. If he later meets the minimum required bloodline levels, he gains his 3rd-level trait at that time (as well as any other traits he may have failed to receive for not taking his bloodline level right away), and the XP reduction no longer applies to future gains. Before reaching his 6th character level, he must have taken two levels of bloodline in order to keep gaining bloodline traits. If he takes his third bloodline level before reaching 12th character level, he becomes eligible to gain all the traits of his bloodline (as they become available when he reaches new character levels).
A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.
Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.
If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.
Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. Instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).
If the character does not take a class level of bloodline before reaching the character level indicated on the table, he gains no further bloodline traits and must take a 20% penalty on all future XP gains. As soon as he meets the minimum bloodline level, he gains all bloodline abilities due him according to his character level, and the XP penalty no longer applies.
For example, A 1st-level character with a major bloodline (silver dragon) receives a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks as a bloodline trait. When he reaches 2nd character level, he gains the Alertness feat as a bloodline trait. Before he reaches 3rd character level, he must take a level of bloodline in order to continue gaining bloodline traits. if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains. If he later meets the minimum required bloodline levels, he gains his 3rd-level trait at that time (as well as any other traits he may have failed to receive for not taking his bloodline level right away), and the XP reduction no longer applies to future gains. Before reaching his 6th character level, he must have taken two levels of bloodline in order to keep gaining bloodline traits. If he takes his third bloodline level before reaching 12th character level, he becomes eligible to gain all the traits of his bloodline (as they become available when he reaches new character levels).
A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.
Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.
If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.
i think you did a great job on this thread, also i copied your entire sig, and I think it's more than 22%. also the statistic for 4.0 is that 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% hate it.
Thanks everyone. I don't know why I went so OCD but I figured I let the boards know that the way I read bloodlines allows them to be a lot more fun than people say and neither overpowered nor underpowered.I will add a full listing of base class's abilities that are advanced with Bloodlines in a bit too (along with common misconceptions for things that do not actually stack).
I just think its cool to take a build and say, hmm 20 class levels but I still need some feats and don't want to go epic... Nothing left to add but a bloodline!
Now that the stacking issues seem resolved, what about when and how we take bloodline levels?
1 Though the primary source all uses the word "before", all the examples seem to place the timing of the taking of the bloodline levels immediately before 3, 6, or 12. I counter that they meant 'immediately before' meaning that one takes the level after level 2/5/11 but before you take your normal class level at 3/6/12 after the bloodline level at 3/6/12.
2 'What's this, two levels of 3, 6, and 12?' Yes, because "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does." Since the ECL does not change after the bloodline level the character is free to take a real class level that will put ECL up to 3/6/12. But we upon gaining the virtual Bloodline levels, we STILL go down to level 2/5/11's xp level. This forces a Bloodlines character who wants to go from class level 2 to class level 3 actually pays for that level 3 Xp twice. This counts as the 'cost' of the levels and the reason they are not free (since they don't add to ECL).
3 'I've got you now! This makes the bloodlines table unbalance minor and intermediate bloodlines in favor of the almost-as-XP-costly major bloodline.' Well no, the table is wrong (comon, its only a small copy and paste error on a table). This is just one of those many misprints that never gets fixed in the errata since UA is mostly variants and seemingly doesn't deserve its own errata. It follows a nice pattern so we know what it should be:
Table: Bloodline Levels
Bloodline Level Bloodline Strength
Minor Intermediate Major
1st 3rd 3rd 3rd
2nd n/a 6th 6th
3rd n/a n/a 12th
Huh? I don't get your parts 2 & 3 here. Are you talking about house rules, or is this your interpretation of what it says in Unearthed Arcana?
#2: According to Unearthed Arcana, a character with three class levels and one (major) bloodline level is a level 4 character, i.e. it takes 6,000 xp to reach this point. It sounds like you're claiming that a character with three class levels and one bloodline level would require 5,000 xp because he "pays for" level 3 twice.
#3: Why do you think the table has a typo in it? It looks fine to me -- if you have a major bloodline, you suffer for it at levels 3, 6 and 12 (by effectively adding +1 LA at each of those points); if you have a medium bloodline, you suffer for it at levels 6 and 12; and if you have a minor bloodline you suffer for it at level 12. In each case it's saying "once you have three abilities, that's worth +1 LA".
I'm still not sure if you're trying to rewrite the rules or if you're reading them wrong. I think the bloodline rules in UA are pretty clear and aren't really worth taking (e.g. the first 3 abilities of each bloodline listed aren't worth a +1 LA) unless you can cram a bunch of classes into your build that each have an ability that's progressed by the bloodline (which is rare).
(I edited to clarify my language)
Part 3: I say the table was a copy error because why pay 11k for only 1 minor bloodline level when you can pay 18k xp for all 3major ones?
Part 2: because bloodline level do not count towards ECL (even though the do cost xp) you can take a bloodlines level at 3 and then take a class level also at 3. So for level 3 you have one 'real' class level and one virtual one. So an ECL 3 character with 3 class levels and 1 Bloodline level would need 0 [class level 1] + 1000 [class level 2] + 2000 [Bloodline level] + 2000 [class level 3] = 5000 experience, exactly as you thought hogarth.
This means the total cost for 3 major bloodlines virtual levels is 2000+5000+11000=18000, which is not too bad for what you get
Also remember I was saying that it was not the class levels themselves that were being progressed, but rather the abilities that any particular class level gives that is progressed. So having bloodline levels are even better when your character has many abilities from many different classes that can be advanced by bloodlines.
Keep in mind this is not having 1 class ability advanced by several prestiges and pretending each prestige is advanced by the bloodline levels.
My reasoning for it counting to ones ECL is that it is still considered a level. If it wasn't, statements like,
It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.
wouldn't be needed. You use that very statement to say it doesn't count for ECL, because its not explicitly stated, but it is a "level". Its not an exp cost, you do gain a "level" that doesn't function like a normal class level.
I can see the argument that it doesn't explicitly say that it counts toward your ECL, but it is pretty heavily implied in that you are treated for all intents and purposes a level higher - including your ECL.
That being said, if it doesn't increase your ECL thats more interesting. I can definitely see their usefulness because you would then gain some additional exp. Much like LA buyoff, you pay an exp cost for a benefit, and it essentially functions very similar to having an LA+1/2/3 which you buy off very quickly. But I still don't find your argument for it not increasing your ECL very valid seeing as it is said you do function as a higher level character, which is what ECL does as well.
Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does
A normal level increases character level, which is also effective character level (ECL). And the no BaB, HD, saves, etc is a good indicator of that.
In the savage progressions it says specifically that those are simply the already published template LA or race LA broken down by what is gained for each level. This is given to players so they can reverse engineer what is given at each level allowing a lycanthrope to take a weaker LA1 version or a Drow character to actually player with ECL1 character even though that would have been below their starting ECL.
The quote you gave says that a Bloodline virtual level only "counts as a normal class level (...) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks." If we are not talking about the max skill ranks, then your quote does not support or override the fact that levels of bloodline do not increase character level.
No where is it implied that you are treated as an ECL higher after a bloodline level - this is merely us DnD players used to taking normal classes that do
.increase your ECL thats more interesting. I can definitely see their usefulness because you would then gain some additional exp. Much like LA buyoff, you pay an exp cost for a benefit, and it essentially functions very similar to having an LA+1/2/3 which you buy off very quickly.
Exactly Jenos. Remember that I said the LA buyoff being in the same book was no coincidence ;).
The phrase says that it counts as a class level for the purpose of determining skill ranks - it never says that it does not count for a CHARACTER level at any time.
Your justification that it does not count for a character level, to me, is iffy. That quote seems to me to simply be there to indicate the difference between a bloodline level and a class level, not to indicate that your ECL does not go up.
However! There's no point to furthering this discussion, as it ultimately is boiling down to semantics. I read the text in one way, you read it in another. In any case, that quote was what I wanted, because even if I don't think it was meant like that, perhaps I can convince my DM using your arguments.
Now my question is, other then the often mentioned hellfire warlock, what other classes benefit from having their class abilities increased to the point where a bloodline can start to be abused?
IIRC, a few sample builts were tossed around that included Divine Minion, Druid, Arcane Hierophant, MoMF, and Nature's Warrior, (ab)using Bloodlines to get into the 40s or 50s for wildshaping HD.
umopapisdn, nice to have you here.
Unfortunately no. The spirit of the text is only talking about each class level, meaning base class levels, since it is assuming no base class levels give any of the same abilities. What it is talking about specifically is "each abilities of the character that depends on class levels is advanced by bloodlines." Refer back to my original post's interpretation for better wording if you wish.
Anyway, since Wildshaping is just 1 ability (the PrC's don't grant it, they just stack with it) a major bloodline will only grant +3HD and an extra 3 hours duration no matter how many prestige classes you have that stack with the base ability. Think of Turn Undead (Su) and the Extra Turning feat as a good example. Extra Turning only gives extra turns to the base ability irregardless of how many (only) stacking prestige classes a cleric takes.
However a Cleric 1 / Dread Necro 1 with extra turning would get the feat to help both pools since they are seperate base abilities. This is the exception to the assumption that no base class levels give any of the same abilities thing.
That said, I did update a full listing of each base class ability that can be advanced with Bloodline levels.
Okay, the whole point of this thread was to present a consolidated and balanced view of the bloodlines variant, so they could be healthily used in any and every campaign. That said, there will always be calls to abuse... so:
The Long-Range, Heavy Artillery (which also happens to be almost impossible to locate for an attack 250' away)
Show
Strongheart Halfling with Darkstalker, Hidden Talent feats
Feats by level 3=item familiar, 6=least legacy, 9=empower SLA, 12=quicken SLA, 15=maximize SLA, 18=open
Hidden Talent + torc of power preservation + Bloodline Levels = half an hour long compression
Binder 1
Warlock 6 = 3d6 eldritch blast, Eldritch Spear and Darkness then Fell Flight and Hellrime Blast invocations, detect magic, DR/1 cold iron
Hellfire Warlock 3 = +2d6 per class level -> 12d6, another +2d6 from warlock, Eldritch chain
Legacy Champion 10 = 8 hellfire warlock levels ->16d6 and 4d6 from warlock along with 4 greater invocations (vitriolic blast, enervating shadow, devour magic and eltritch cone) and 3 dark invocations (dark discorporation, retributive invisibility and utterdark blast)
basically you are a fully maxed out warlock with a 37d6 hellfire blast from 250' away while hidden with full concealment...
You can also add two feats (via flaws), two items and two spells (via umd) to net 9d6 SA if you have a party to help with the flanking:
Martial Study (Cloak of Deception maneuver:swift->greater invis until end of your turn)& Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance = +2d6 SA)
1d6 via Bracers of the Hunter (Secrets of Xen'drik, 8,500 gp) +5 competence bonus on Hide checks, +2 competence bonus on initiative checks
1d6 via Rogue Vest, +2reflex,Hide&move Silently
Hunters eye for 2d6
Nightstalker's Transformation = (33.75k) +3d6SA, +4dex enhance, +3AC luck, +5luck reflex, +5 comp spot,listen,hide&move silently, +evasion, ~spells for the 10 rounds but can still UMD
Feats by level 3=item familiar, 6=least legacy, 9=empower SLA, 12=quicken SLA, 15=maximize SLA, 18=open
Hidden Talent + torc of power preservation + Bloodline Levels = half an hour long compression
Binder 1
Warlock 6 = 3d6 eldritch blast, Eldritch Spear and Darkness then Fell Flight and Hellrime Blast invocations, detect magic, DR/1 cold iron
Hellfire Warlock 3 = +2d6 per class level -> 12d6, another +2d6 from warlock, Eldritch chain
Legacy Champion 10 = 8 hellfire warlock levels ->16d6 and 4d6 from warlock along with 4 greater invocations (vitriolic blast, enervating shadow, devour magic and eltritch cone) and 3 dark invocations (dark discorporation, retributive invisibility and utterdark blast)
basically you are a fully maxed out warlock with a 37d6 hellfire blast from 250' away while hidden with full concealment...
You can also add two feats (via flaws), two items and two spells (via umd) to net 9d6 SA if you have a party to help with the flanking:
Martial Study (Cloak of Deception maneuver:swift->greater invis until end of your turn)& Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance = +2d6 SA)
1d6 via Bracers of the Hunter (Secrets of Xen'drik, 8,500 gp) +5 competence bonus on Hide checks, +2 competence bonus on initiative checks
1d6 via Rogue Vest, +2reflex,Hide&move Silently
Hunters eye for 2d6
Nightstalker's Transformation = (33.75k) +3d6SA, +4dex enhance, +3AC luck, +5luck reflex, +5 comp spot,listen,hide&move silently, +evasion, ~spells for the 10 rounds but can still UMD
I agree with one primary point: Bloodline levels do not increase ECL
Also, though I haven't looked through the entirity of the lists of abilities Bloodline levels do or do not affect, it seems we agree here too (not surprising, the text is pretty clear about this).
But I disagree on a few points, going strictly by the rules presented. I know your intent is to show how Bloodlines can be used in a balanced way, but I think it is important to be clear about what the rules say and what might be tweeked to improve balance:
- Bloodline levels need to be taken right before the given level (3, 6, 12):
It seems to me "before" means anytime before. The LA-buyoff rules are very clear about when a character may buy off a LA, but there is no such directive here. Only "before". The levels given indicate the level at which a penalty applies if the requisite Bloodline level is not taken, but that is all. (see below for a discussion on xp cost)
- The table you present, wherein a character with a Minor Bloodline must take a Bloodline level before character level 3:
I think you are wrong on this. I understand why you might think this, but see below for my discussion of xp cost.
The maximum character level to take a Bloodline level without suffering penalties is as it should be - before a character has gained a specific level of benefit from their Bloodline, they have to pay a cost. If you examine the Bloodline benefit tables, you will see that Minor Bloodlines confer the same benefits at character level 12 as Intermediate Bloodlines confer at character level 6 and as Major Bloodlines confer at character level 3.
You quoted: "Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference." [emphasis mine] I think the idea behind this applies directly to this issue.
At this time, I can't comment on the stacking issue except to say that what you present would certainly limit how exploitable this can be.
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XP cost. Based on the xp reward system laid out in the DMG, it should take the same number of level-appropriate encounters to earn enough experience for the next level regardless of present level. Another way to look at this is, "each level costs the same number of successful encounters". So, 2k xp at level 2 takes just as many encounters as 11k xp at level 11. The absolute ammount of xp is more, but the characters are earning it at a faster rate so they are functionally equal. There is no difference between sacrificing 2k xp at level 2 and 11k xp at level 11. (Though clearly 2k xp at level 11 would be different.)