I'm working on a 3e tweak that attempts to bring back a lot of the 2e feel, to introduce my current group to the "old school" play style before we start a 2e campaign next semester. One aspect that I'm struggling with is the multiclassing/dual-classing system. Dual-classing is fairly easy (use 3e multiclassing as-is), but I'm not exactly sure what the best way to balance 2e multiclass/3e gestalt characters to normal characters.
I figure that taking the lower of the classes' HP, saves, etc. would probably be the best bet, possibly taking the average of the two in some cases. I'm not sure how to handle class abilities, though--choose one at each level? Get both, but a few levels lower? Maybe something else? You'd probably have a better idea of the more abusable combinations than I would for each option.
Help with that and any other ideas related to gestalt integration is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
i've been running my first gestalt game for a few months, and here's what i've learned:
1) no dual-casters. seriously. just don't. (1 guy had a druid/wizard -- i should have known better
-- at least i had the forsight to quickly squash his idea for Arcane Hierophant)2) no dual-casters. that's right -- it's that bad. the ONLY exception that MIGHT be okay is if they do it the "standard" way on one side, and then a non-caster on the other side.
3) should probably only advance 1 PrC at any given level. anything else will unleash hell.
4) no "combo" PrC. seriously, that's why they have 2 classes to advance. if they want a special ability that can only be gotten from a "combo" PrC, then make-up some feats that have the same prerequisites as the class (and each class feature should have it's own feat).
5) no class-synergy feats (e.g., ascetic rogue, daring outlaw, etc.) unless you cap the effect at the character's hit-die.
6) if someone want to play a race/monster with racial hit-die, have the racial HD+LA take one side (just like a class), and a PC class on the other side (might want to check-out savage species for guidance on "monsters as class levels").
7) since you're going to mix gestalt with standard (something that i'm not brave enough to do), you're gonna have to mess with the xp system. also, unless you're starting a level 1, you'll want to start the gestalts AT LEAST 1 level behind the standards. i would probably start with treating the gestalts as having a +1 LA per 4 levels or so, for the purpose of xp awards.
by far, the hardest part of this is going to be finding some sort of intra-party "balance"; and the target is going to be constantly moving. also, keep in mind that while the gestalts get 2 classes of abilities at each level, they still only get 1 HD at each level -- this will probably result in a "glass canon" effect (i probably wouldn't nerf anything except xp awards). in the same vein, for gestalts, the line between a "challenging" encounter and "certain death" is very narrow.
hope that helps.
but I'm not exactly sure what the best way to balance 2e multiclass/3e gestalt characters to normal characters
the problem is that the dynamics of 2e and those of 3e simply do not mesh well (at least not in this case).
A gestalt character divides all exp gained between his two sides, meaning he would need 2000 and not 1000 to reach level 2 for example.
This would mean that the gestalt character would need a lot more exp to level, but since lower-level characters gain more exp from the same CR it will hopefully even out somewhat, trading some top-notch power for the versatility of gestalt.
Other then that I really have no idea how you could do it.
Hope it helps.
There... I... I do not think this can be done. Are you Leegin's GM?
No, I don't know who Leegin is. Is that someone's name, or a username here?
i think that you are a glutton for punishment. that being said, if you're gonna mix gestalt and standard in the same party, both you and your players are going to need to be ready to plenty of on-the-fly adjustments.
I think you misunderstand; I don't want to drop gestalt characters into the game as-is, I want to power them down significantly but still allow people to progress two classes at once. Think of it more as playing an Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge from level 1--you get most of the important benefits of the class, but not all of them. I'm just trying to come up with a system that would let me do this without having to make a theurge PrC for every possible combination.
Well you could try this method which I think is somewhat similar to what they did in 2e:
A gestalt character divides all exp gained between his two sides, meaning he would need 2000 and not 1000 to reach level 2 for example.
This would mean that the gestalt character would need a lot more exp to level, but since lower-level characters gain more exp from the same CR it will hopefully even out somewhat, trading some top-notch power for the versatility of gestalt.
That could work; the only problem I see is that 2e XP was more exponential than 3e's is. Hmm...that's an idea, I could use the 2e XP system for the pseudo-gestalt PCs and the 3e XP for the regulars. I'd have to give that a bit more thought.
I think the simplest solution would be to give the multiclass/gestalt character a +2 or +3 level adjustment (e.g. you can be a level 6 wizard or a level 3/3 wizard/cleric). The +3 LA sounds most reasonable to me, since that's the penalty you would suffer for playing a mystic theurge (for example).
The only problem with that is that you can't start at 1st level with that system; LA was the first idea I considered, but I didn't think it would work out.
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Okay, since people seem to be misinterpreting my intentions here:
What I most want to recapture here is the feel of being a hybrid from level 1 (and I don't mean that in the 4e give-up-stuff-and-gimp-yourself sense). I want my PCs to be able to play a "mage/priest" without waiting until level 3 for Mystic Theurge; I want them to be able to play a "fighter/thief" without waiting for Eldritch Knight or going Duskblade.
I don't want the power level of gestalt, but I do want the ability to progress multiple classes at once, so what I'm asking here is how can I change the gestalt system to balance it with regular classes, not what to do to balance the gestalt rules as they are with regular characters.
Would taking the worse of the two HD, saves, etc. be balancing enough (i.e., is a fighter//wizard with d4 HD, all bad saves, the fighter's number of skills, and the wizard's proficiencies somewhat balanced)? Do I need to cut out class abilities (choose whether to gain a bonus feat or advance casting, and you can't have more than 3/4 on one side, or have a preset progression)? Are there particular combinations that just would not work this way?
The only problem with that is that you can't start at 1st level with that system; LA was the first idea I considered, but I didn't think it would work out.
Sure you can; your gestalt character just won't reach second (character) level until he gets 10000 xp (when other characters are turning level 5). He'll just be better than average at the very beginning (although not that much better than average).
Actually, jgumbyrx's idea of increasing the level adjustment over time is probably better (e.g. +1 LA at level 1, +2 LA at level 3, +3 LA at level 5, for instance).
Outside Link
Sure you can; your gestalt character just won't reach second (character) level until he gets 10000 xp (when other characters are turning level 5). He'll just be better than average at the very beginning (although not that much better than average).
Actually, jgumbyrx's idea of increasing the level adjustment over time is probably better (e.g. +1 LA at level 1, +2 LA at level 3, +3 LA at level 5, for instance).
I suppose that could work, though the point of LA is to make you start at a higher level; messing around with XP trades later power for immediate power. I guess it depends on what exactly you're getting at those levels, so maybe variable LA based on your classes could work.
I have actually built some progressions around this very idea, though I had stopped at a certain point due to time constraints on my part. Feel free to expand as you see fit
Doing individual progressions like that is something I'd considered as well; I'll take a closer look at those later and see if they work.
I suppose that could work, though the point of LA is to make you start at a higher level; messing around with XP trades later power for immediate power.
But that's exactly how AD&D multiclassing worked! A fighter 1/wizard 1 was strictly better than a wizard 1, and they paid for it by progressing more slowly.
Okay, since people seem to be misinterpreting my intentions here:
What I most want to recapture here is the feel of being a hybrid from level 1 (and I don't mean that in the 4e give-up-stuff-and-gimp-yourself sense). I want my PCs to be able to play a "mage/priest" without waiting until level 3 for Mystic Theurge; I want them to be able to play a "fighter/thief" without waiting for Eldritch Knight or going Duskblade.
I don't want the power level of gestalt, but I do want the ability to progress multiple classes at once, so what I'm asking here is how can I change the gestalt system to balance it with regular classes, not what to do to balance the gestalt rules as they are with regular characters.
Would taking the worse of the two HD, saves, etc. be balancing enough (i.e., is a fighter//wizard with d4 HD, all bad saves, the fighter's number of skills, and the wizard's proficiencies somewhat balanced)? Do I need to cut out class abilities (choose whether to gain a bonus feat or advance casting, and you can't have more than 3/4 on one side, or have a preset progression)? Are there particular combinations that just would not work this way?
I understand what your intentions are. let's see if I can chip in my two coppers. I like the idea of the worst of the two
here's what I'd do
BUILDING A GESTALT CHARACTER
To make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two standard D&D classes.
Build your character according to the following guidelines.
Hit Dice: Choose the smaller Hit Die. A monk/sorcerer would use d4 as her Hit Die and have 4 hit points (plus Constitution modifier) at 1st level, for example.
#using the less die is a reasonable balance
Base Attack Bonus: There are three types of BAB progression, poor, fair, good (at level 20 that means either +10, +15, or +20 BAB with the iterations) Use the following table for your new BAB progression
[INDENT]Table 1-1: Determining Your Characters BAB
Class A BAB // Class B BAB = New BAB
Poor // Fair = Poor
Poor // Good = Fair
Fair // Good = Good[/INDENT]
If both classes had the same BAB progression, then use that. IE: Good//Good = Good BAB.
#Instead of taking the worst stats, this kind of "averages" the BAB progression of the two classes
Base Saving Throw Bonuses: There are two "sides" to a characters gestalt tree, ClassA//ClassB. All save progression is decided by the class on side A of the tree. Example; A Fighter//Wizard would have the Fighter save progression.
Upon reaching a new level, a player may choose to switch the classes to different sides, but they would start over at level 1 of said class. Example Fighter5//Wizard5 upon attaining level 6 could go Fighter5/Wizard1//Wizard5/Fighter1.
#Keeps you balanced with other players save rates.
Class Skills: There are 4 different levels of skills a class gets. Ranked as follows; Rank A (8+int), Rank B (6+int), Rank C (4+int), Rank D (2+int). Use the following table to determine your characters skill progression.
[INDENT]Table 1-2: Determining Your Characters Saves
Class A Rank// Class B Rank= New skill ranking
A // B = A
A // C = B
A // D = B
B // C = C
B // D = C
C // D = D[/INDENT]
#you'll see a lot more classes with B/C rank skills, and few combos that'd have excellent or poor skill points/level.
Class Features: A gestalt character gains class features from both sides of the tree as Follows. Caster levels don't stack. Abilities cap out as normal for a non gestalt character of their hit die. Choose one side of the gestalt tree (A//B), that side retards the rate at which it gains new abilities by 1 level every 4th level. So a Wizard4//Druid4 would have all abilities of 4th level wizard, but only 3th level abilities of druid. Wiz10/Drd10 would then be the ability of a 10th level wizard, with the progression of an 8th level druid (so shape change, spell casting, etc is all done at 8th level). You retard the level only on each 5th one, so a Wiz1/Drd1 has all abilities of each class. The decision of which side of the tree gets retarded can't later be changed once it is made.
As normal, a character can't combine two prestige classes at the same level, but prestige and regular class combos are ok. Prestige classes that are essential combination of two regular classes are prohibited, a DM at their discretion may rule otherwise however it's not recommended. Examples of "class-combo" prestige classes; arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight.
Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.
Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the DM is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.
#remember that while gestalt characters have a lot of new class options, the balance is in the fact that they have the same amount of turns as every one else. A gestalt character can't fire off spells from each side of the gestalt tree for example.
On the subject of BAB and Saves. You could also implement the Fractional Base Bonuses rule found in the gestalt section of UA. modifier such that you add the fractional bonuses from each class and each level, and divide by 2.
So a BAB of Fighter//Rogue would look like this:
I only progressed through the first 5 levels of the combo, but I think you get the idea. each level the bonus goes up .875, but because of rounding we drop the fractions of attack. under the other suggestion, this character would instead have a +5 BAB at level 5 because he'd follow the good progression.
I think the Fractional Base Bonuses Rule is perfect. Plus, in the case of non gestalt characters, they just don't divide the result by 2. Basically, they treat the houserule as normally suggested.
BUILDING A GESTALT CHARACTER
To make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two standard D&D classes.
Build your character according to the following guidelines.
Hit Dice: Choose the smaller Hit Die. A monk/sorcerer would use d4 as her Hit Die and have 4 hit points (plus Constitution modifier) at 1st level, for example.
#using the less die is a reasonable balance
Base Attack Bonus: There are three types of BAB progression, poor, fair, good (at level 20 that means either +10, +15, or +20 BAB with the iterations) Use the following table for your new BAB progression
[INDENT]Table 1-1: Determining Your Characters BAB
Class A BAB // Class B BAB = New BAB
Poor // Fair = Poor
Poor // Good = Fair
Fair // Good = Good[/INDENT]
If both classes had the same BAB progression, then use that. IE: Good//Good = Good BAB.
#Instead of taking the worst stats, this kind of "averages" the BAB progression of the two classes
Base Saving Throw Bonuses: There are two "sides" to a characters gestalt tree, ClassA//ClassB. All save progression is decided by the class on side A of the tree. Example; A Fighter//Wizard would have the Fighter save progression.
Upon reaching a new level, a player may choose to switch the classes to different sides, but they would start over at level 1 of said class. Example Fighter5//Wizard5 upon attaining level 6 could go Fighter5/Wizard1//Wizard5/Fighter1.
#Keeps you balanced with other players save rates.
Class Skills: There are 4 different levels of skills a class gets. Ranked as follows; Rank A (8+int), Rank B (6+int), Rank C (4+int), Rank D (2+int). Use the following table to determine your characters skill progression.
[INDENT]Table 1-2: Determining Your Characters Saves
Class A Rank// Class B Rank= New skill ranking
A // B = A
A // C = B
A // D = B
B // C = C
B // D = C
C // D = D[/INDENT]
#you'll see a lot more classes with B/C rank skills, and few combos that'd have excellent or poor skill points/level.
Class Features: A gestalt character gains class features from both sides of the tree as Follows. Caster levels don't stack. Abilities cap out as normal for a non gestalt character of their hit die. Choose one side of the gestalt tree (A//B), that side retards the rate at which it gains new abilities by 1 level every 4th level. So a Wizard4//Druid4 would have all abilities of 4th level wizard, but only 3th level abilities of druid. Wiz10/Drd10 would then be the ability of a 10th level wizard, with the progression of an 8th level druid (so shape change, spell casting, etc is all done at 8th level). You retard the level only on each 5th one, so a Wiz1/Drd1 has all abilities of each class. The decision of which side of the tree gets retarded can't later be changed once it is made.
As normal, a character can't combine two prestige classes at the same level, but prestige and regular class combos are ok. Prestige classes that are essential combination of two regular classes are prohibited, a DM at their discretion may rule otherwise however it's not recommended. Examples of "class-combo" prestige classes; arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight.
Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.
Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the DM is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.
#remember that while gestalt characters have a lot of new class options, the balance is in the fact that they have the same amount of turns as every one else. A gestalt character can't fire off spells from each side of the gestalt tree for example.
On the subject of BAB and Saves. You could also implement the Fractional Base Bonuses rule found in the gestalt section of UA. modifier such that you add the fractional bonuses from each class and each level, and divide by 2.
So a BAB of Fighter//Rogue would look like this:
- 1 // .75 = .875 = +0
- 2 // 1.5 = 1.75 = +1
- 3 // 2.25 = 2.625 = +2
- 4 // 3 = 3.5 = +3
- 5 // 3.75 = 4.375 = +4
I only progressed through the first 5 levels of the combo, but I think you get the idea. each level the bonus goes up .875, but because of rounding we drop the fractions of attack. under the other suggestion, this character would instead have a +5 BAB at level 5 because he'd follow the good progression.
I think the Fractional Base Bonuses Rule is perfect. Plus, in the case of non gestalt characters, they just don't divide the result by 2. Basically, they treat the houserule as normally suggested.
i've just spent a while analizing the whole xp system. Aniona_Amakiir hit the nail right on the head. let me break this down (some of this may be a little redundant, but it helps keep me on track):
-- at first level, there really isn't that much difference between a standard PC and a gestalt PC. as a matter of fact, the differences don't really start to pronounce until about 4-5 level (and the gap just becomes more pronounces from their). So, having them all start at 1st level shouldn't be a problem.
-- there can be 2 different ways to determine xp awards to the gestat (in either case, you will have to stricktly stick to the graduated structure of the 3e xp chart)
1) you could have the gesalt characters split their xp between the 2 classes (this will have the same effect as giving them 1/2 xp, since ALL classes now advance at the same pace. because of the self-correcting nature of the 3e xp system, lower-level characters actually receive more xp per encounter -- this will be very important, because otherwise the gestalts would only be 14th when the others are 20th (and that is actually too much disparency)
XP per level break-down (graduated xp concidered):
- at 15k xp, the "standards" will just hit 6th level; while the "gestalts" will be closing-in on 5th (which should be about right for balance).
- when the "standards" are just hitting 12th, the "gestalts" should be at least 10th (still, just about right)
- when the "standards" hit 20th, the "gestalts" should be somewhere around 16th or so (again, just about right)
2) the other way you could award xp (which Aniona didn't mention) is to add ALL of the "gestalts" classes together. for example, a rogue5/monk5 gestalt would be considered a 10th level character for the purposes of awarding xp -- they will still be advancing slower than the "standards", since they will be getting less xp/encounter. however, i would only recommend this if the "gestalts" start to fall way behind on the party-balance scale, as this method has the "gestalts" advancing a little faster than the previous method.
there you have it -- it's simple, and requires almost no additional work. you don't have to modify anything (just take it straight out of UA). also, you shouldn't need to worry about any of the restrictions that i had mentioned earlier (AND no LA) (though, i would still probably stear away from mystic theurge-esque PrC's)
if you do the math and do the proper analisis, i think you should come to the same conclusion (besides, simple is good).
This also means that the single-classed characters (who are more focused in their training, since they aren't dual-classing) will obtain the new spell levels (and other class features) faster than their gestalt brethren, which makes sense in a way.
What about using the apprentice rules from 3.0's DMG?
That solves the issue at 1st level, making you a 0/0 character, but not later on.
But that's exactly how AD&D multiclassing worked! A fighter 1/wizard 1 was strictly better than a wizard 1, and they paid for it by progressing more slowly.
That's how it did work, but I'm trying to make them more even. If I wanted the 1/1 to be strictly better than the single-classed one, I'd just use plain gestalt. ;) However...
there you have it -- it's simple, and requires almost no additional work. you don't have to modify anything (just take it straight out of UA). also, you shouldn't need to worry about any of the restrictions that i had mentioned earlier (AND no LA) (though, i would still probably stear away from mystic theurge-esque PrC's)
if you do the math and do the proper analisis, i think you should come to the same conclusion (besides, simple is good).
Today 06:24 PM
...J here does make a good point about where power peaks and where the major differences are. I think I'll build a few characters with the averaging method suggested and a few with just different XP progressions, both at the full range of levels, and I'll see how things stack up.
Thanks for all the help and ideas, everyone! If you have any other suggestions, feel free to chime in.
Looking over the DMG / XP / CR chart:
A character 3 to 4 levels behind other party members will be getting 2x the exp (depending upon the level) which balances out the 2x exp "penalty" for being gestalt. The higher the level, the less behind you will be on obtaining xp. Add in that you need less exp to reach lower levels, you should expect the gestalts to be around 2-3 levels behind the rest of the party, which is not a bad thing. They will be 1-2 spell levels behind, have slightly fewer HD (balanced by the usually higher HD size), lower save progression (balanced by better aggregate saves), possibly lower BAB progression, but have a metric ton more abilities (balanced by limited amount of actions by each player).
-- there can be 2 different ways to determine xp awards to the gestat (in either case, you will have to stricktly stick to the graduated structure of the 3e xp chart)
1) you could have the gesalt characters split their xp between the 2 classes
***
2) the other way you could award xp is to add ALL of the "gestalts" classes together. for example, a rogue5/monk5 gestalt would be considered a 10th level character for the purposes of awarding xp
something else to concider:
if you use method 1, the "gestalts" will start to fall back right away (not necessarily a bad thing).
if you use method 2, they won't start falling back until after reaching level 2.
like i said -- just a thought.
Even if you figure a more ideal case like Cloistered Cleric5//Druid5, this character has only the HP, saves, BAB, and skills of a level 5 character with none of the class features or level 4 or 5 spells of a level 10 Druid or Cloistered Cleric. LA2 seems appropriate.
An alternative is to allow gestalts by tier. Wizards are on their own, but Sorcerers could pseudo-Arcane Trickster by taking Expert on the other side.
I advise against mereliy stacking levels for XP costs. A Wizard5//Rogue5 is silghtly better off than a Wizard5 or Rogue5, but lacks the staying power of a level 10 Wizard or Rogue.
Even if you figure a more ideal case like Cloistered Cleric5//Druid5, this character has only the HP, saves, BAB, and skills of a level 5 character with none of the class features or level 4 or 5 spells of a level 10 Druid or Cloistered Cleric. LA2 seems appropriate.
it was just another possible method for adjusting xp awards -- i do prefer method 1 over 2, but i don't know how his game will play-out (a dm with options = good)