I want to do a character that is an arcane archer, but focuses on the arcane side of things. After a bit of research I realised that Bard, with Sublime Chord, might be better than Wizard because of the versatility of it. So this is what my character is based around ...
8 Bard
2 Arcane Archer
x Sublime Chord
Now, I am going to ask a question that has been asked before ... I have never seen a difinitive answer though, hence me posting a new topic about it
As I said, I would like to be more of a caster, so my idea is thus:
8 Bard
2 Arcane Archer
10 Sublime Chord
13 ba - not too flash, but the theory is, I will be casting a lot more spells, instead of hitting people with a weapon directly, so I shouldn't need hgh base attack
In terms of spells, the bard will give me access to 4th level spells at CL 18, and the sublime chord will give me access to 9th level spells at CL 18. Not too shabby ...
Having said that ... perhaps I do want to hurt people with arrows a lot as well? There is the "Smiting Spell" feat in the PHB 2 which allows touch spells to be channelled when it hits a creature. I believe, in this case, you must hit their normal armour class, wound the creature, and then the spell discharges. Hitting the touch AC is not enough. Am I correct on this point? #1 I want to check ...
Dealing damage in this way would be good. Arrow damage, plus spell damage, is good news. Unfortunately, 13 ba isnt much! Arcane Strike won't get around it either, nor will tensor's transformation. heroism, bracers of archery, etc, will get around it a bit ... and polymorph may help ... but 13 ba base is low!
So, there the eldritch knight variant:
8 Bard
2 Arcane Archer
2 Sublime Chord
8 Eldritch Knight
In this case, I wil have 17 ba, which is perfectly fine.
#2 Does this mean that my bard spells will be cast at CL 10, and my sublime chord spells at CL 17?
#3 and #4 what happens at epic levels?
epic build 1: 8 bard, 2 aa, 20 sc. is this CL 28 for both bard and sc spells?
eipc build 2: 8 bard, 2 aa, 2 sc, 18 ek. is this CL 10 for bard and 27 for sc?
#5 Assuming I am correct there, is 4 base attack worth the loss of bard CL for this build?
#6 is there a better way to get around losing so much ba?
#7 at character level 22 of the first build (8 bard, 2 AA, 12 SC), SC casting will be maxed. I am tempted to then switch back to 12 levels of bard if this character ever gets that good. This will complete the bard spellcasting and bardic music. Is this worth it? Losing 3 or 4 epic feats in exchange to some bardic spells and bardic music .... Hmmm. I will have tons of spells then but probably will never need them. At least both bard and SC spellcasting will be at a rather high CL. If only something like arcane strike would work with bows! Is this trade-off worth it overall .... opinions please?
#8 any other ideas that you guys n gals could help me with?
DO NOT take Eldrich Knight. You can't afford to lose any Sublime chord caster levels.
I'd suggest Bard8/AA2/SC2/Abjurant Champion4/Sacred Excorcist4
or Bard8/AA2/SC2/Abjurant Champion4/Unseen Seer4
Either gets you 16 BAB and that 4th iterative without killing your CL.
A real "Arcane" archery is Archer-ing with Orb of Force or Scorching ray, not arrows, IMO.
DO NOT take Eldrich Knight. You can't afford to lose any Sublime chord caster levels.
I'd suggest Bard8/AA2/SC2/Abjurant Champion4/Sacred Excorcist4
or Bard8/AA2/SC2/Abjurant Champion4/Unseen Seer4
Either gets you 16 BAB and that 4th iterative without killing your CL.
this character will be based on using arrows to shoot spells, both area affect and touch spells, not on orb of force and scorching ray. perhaps it is not a "real" arcane archery build, but it is a lot more interesting than a "real" one to me!
taking eldrich knight will lose 1 sublime chord caster level, 17 instead of 18. thats still enough, and practiced spellcaster will take care of that anyway. the bard levels are the ones that suffer tons at the hands of the eldrich knight class
sacred exorcist raelly dosent fit in with the character
abjurant champion is a nice class ... but i doubt it is right for this character. i wont be able to use shield, deflect, or lesser deflect with this character as they arent bard spells, and they are low-level spells. thus, i would be taking abjurant champion because its a full base attack and full spell progression class. that is fine, however, there are some problems. firstly, it means that my bard spellcasting loses 4 levels. secondly, that suggested build is miles away from getting into an epic prestige class. i need a build that will do well in epic levels as well as in the first 20
ah yeah, another reason, the class is rather cheesy and a bit overpowered IMO. my DM doesnt like it and will probably pick on me horribly if i take iti appreciate the advice, and abjurant champion is certainly one way of getting more base attack while keeping the caster level. im just unwilling to do it this way
this character will be based on using arrows to shoot spells, both area affect and touch spells, not on orb of force and scorching ray. perhaps it is not a "real" arcane archery build, but it is a lot more interesting than a "real" one to me!
taking eldrich knight will lose 1 sublime chord caster level, 17 instead of 18. thats still enough, and practiced spellcaster will take care of that anyway. the bard levels are the ones that suffer tons at the hands of the eldrich knight class
sacred exorcist raelly dosent fit in with the character
abjurant champion is a nice class ... but i doubt it is right for this character. i wont be able to use shield, deflect, or lesser deflect with this character as they arent bard spells, and they are low-level spells. thus, i would be taking abjurant champion because its a full base attack and full spell progression class. that is fine, however, there are some problems. firstly, it means that my bard spellcasting loses 4 levels.
??? how are you losing 4 CL? Your CL is one higher than it was with eldritch Knight.
secondly, that suggested build is miles away from getting into an epic prestige class. i need a build that will do well in epic levels as well as in the first 20
Abjurant Champion is cheesy? Wow, you clearly have never looked at the other abjuration based prestige classes...
Initiate of the sevenfold Veil and Incantatrix blow AC out of the water.
however, if you take a level in abjurant champion, eldrich knight, etc etc, you gain a level in sublime chord spells (and CL), but you do NOT gain CL in the spells you cast as a bard.
is this correct, or incorrect?
First off, don't worry about caster levels. You can choose which class each level applies to, so your other PrC apply to SC, and your SC applies to Bard. So in the end, you're only 2 Caster levels behind for all spells, Bard or SC.
Second, I believe Smiting Spell you must hit the regular AC. Might want to ask your DM for a ruling on that one.
To maximize versatility and spellcasting I think your base build should be Bard8/AA2/SC2/Virtuoso8+. Virtuoso keeps your full spell progression going from SC, you get a few more nifty song tricks, and best of all, you get more song uses per day. Which by taking the Lyric Spell feat, you can trade in for extra spell uses. Sounds like versatility to me! See the bard FAQ for getting the most out of your songs as well. You'll end up a very good buffer/caster all through, with a neat ranged trick. As far as spells go, exploit the crap out of the terrain and the range of your weapon. Use powerful normally-close-range spells from far off, and aim for their square if you can't hit their AC. :D
As far as epic levels go, you're kind of on your own there, I've never bothered to read the books. If you want to keep in the same vein, you do have 2 more levels of Virtuoso and 8 more of SC available. I think returning to Bard is a big mistake, you will just cripple yourself.
I'm going the other route myself, trying to shoot for a decent BAB. I'm in a low-magic "wild west" tech level campaign. I'd already be one of the most powerful arcane casters in the world, even with just SC spells. Rifles are available as long range (expensive!) weapons, so my range with imbued spell arrows (bullets) will be pretty insane. I was considering the Bard8/AA2/SC2/AC5/??? route, but I don't think AC really fits my character either. I wish Eldritch Knight didn't have that stupid 1st level feat, and just started off with full casting. Arg. Unseen Seer is a possibility, but I don't know how I'll get all the reqs in on top of the reqs for SC. That's a lot of freakin' skill points.
If anyone can think of an alternate fighter/caster class without too terrible prereqs, please help me out! I would like full +1 caster level per level if possible.
a nice official answer on this would be perfect if anyone knows where an official answer exists hehe
virtjuoso is an interesting idea. also is the swiftblade here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327
hoping someone will know an official-ish answer :D
Bard 8 / AA 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Ruathar 3
No CL loss after you enter SC, lots of goodies, +16 BAB.
I suggest
Bard 8 / AA 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Ruathar 3
No CL loss after you enter SC, lots of goodies, +16 BAB.
what is the bard CL? the same as the SC CL or just 10?
Anyways, the key part for what you're asking is "A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class." So both, the Bard and the Sublime Chord-casting advance with each Sublime Chord-level and if you use other Prestige Classes to advance Sublime Chord-casting, rational interpretion is that it advances your Sublime Chord-level in regards to spellcasting thus giving you higher level Sublime Chord- and previous arcane-casting.
The other possible reading is that since you aren't gaining Sublime Chord-levels, you don't get any caster levels whatsoever. However, that reading is kind of stupid since all classes specifically state that you get one extra level of casting in your previous casting class, and every level of casting in Sublime Chord involves rising the previous casting class and Sublime Chord caster level.
however, it could be argued that because the spellcasting section itself says that the bard CL goes up, this is all considered one level .... bah! not clear enough, the decision could easily swing either way