Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 frost.fire Aug 24, 2012 14:07:15	I would like to make a bard halfdragon whose based around the usage and maximization of dragonfire inspiration and inspire courage, while using the warblade or crusader (I'm having trouble deciding which to use) along with song of the white raven to increase my melee damage output and to increase my inspire courage potential.         I have a few questions regarding this particular build and how to properly optimize it my first question would be which is better the warblade or crusader, our party doesnt have a dedicated "tank" nor a truely strong melee damage dealer, our other melee being a goliath scout specializing in unarmed damage (an odd mix) and someone building an assassin wizard gish of some sort. I was thinking of being half battle dragon or emerald for the bonus sonic damage insted of fire.        My second question would be is it worth going into presteige classes such as the seeker of song or the warchanter. Would it be worth it to go into those presteige classes or could a warblade/crusader bard be fine without them? Finally if i plan on being a melee bard it seems that TWF would be the best route to go with all the damage dice, how though can i keep two hands for mauling whilest trying to preform is this possible, i have read the guides but am still quite confused on the whole thing i was thinking using a long sword and a short sword(offhand). Also could intimidate and debuffing be possible or would that make the build to tight?        As for houserules we have in effect my DM has given me the Okay on having the half dragon LA for +1 insted of the usual +3 because of the goliath an the 2 drow getting their LA +2 for free, which i feel is a bonus and also the DM has decided to use a system of feats where we get them every other level insted of every 3 i can get flaws, but i would have to pitch them properly to him(which is fine hes generally lenient) but i think with this system they wont be as pivitol as for other builds. Forgot to mention 32 point buy is in effect.
#2 Andarious-Rosethorn Aug 24, 2012 14:27:33	My second question would be is it worth going into presteige classes such as the seeker of song or the warchanter. Would it be worth it to go into those presteige classes or could a warblade/crusader bard be fine without them? Finally if i plan on being a melee bard it seems that TWF would be the best route to go with all the damage dice, how though can i keep two hands for mauling whilest trying to preform is this possible, i have read the guides but am still quite confused on the whole thing i was thinking using a long sword and a short sword(offhand). Also could intimidate and debuffing be possible or would that make the build to tight? If you want to be a melee damage dealer your best bet is Warblade, it's got more maneuvers that deal piles of damage (Pouncing Charge, Nightmare Blades, Time Stands Still, Hurricane/Tornado). Crusader's tougher, and deals plenty of damage as well (and becomes more accurate when getting hit).  War Chanter does not stack for Inspire Courage bonus, so I'd leave it on the table. Seeker of the Song's weaker still, it doesn't provide a lot to the build. Regarding the Intimidation and Debuffing, my primary concearn with this where your party has no major melee characters is wasted action economy. If you're busy debuffing with your actions, who's getting benefit out of your IC and DFI? Not you, that's for sure. I'd focus on being a good damage dealer and buffer (swift action buffs only if you can help it), and then with what feats and other resources I had left I'd round out weak spots so as not to die easily.
#3 Caker Aug 24, 2012 14:55:40	community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... This thread should provide some insight.
#4 frost.fire Aug 24, 2012 15:38:50	That helps a lot for what I'm trying to do I could not seem to find a link to that thread, I think I'm going to go with a human half dragon(battle) for rp reasons and its fairly min max, due to my house rule allowing.a few extra feats would it be worth it to invest in getting aura of chaos since it seems very tasty for a build like this vut would use 3 feats to make the pre reqs and the feat for a the stance, if I was going this route I wouldn't know which maneuvers from devoted spirit to grab either, but that build seems right up my ally
#5 Caker Aug 24, 2012 16:49:02	If you decide to go the warblade route: www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t... If you decide to go the crusader route: www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=264... For general ToB goodness: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... This should help you make sense of it all, as it did me.
#6 aelryinth Aug 25, 2012 11:37:36	You should see Tempest's singing paladin build, if you REALLY want to rock the house as a melee/buffer. That thing was just plain fun. ==Aelryinth
#7 frost.fire Aug 25, 2012 15:18:14	Is that the "a-game paladin" build posted under his signature? And one final question would be if I went the warblade route would it be possible to get aura of chaos from the devoted spirit tree wuithout a heavy feat investment??
#8 New-Shadow Aug 25, 2012 16:22:07	Yes to the first question.  As for the second..., it's either a two level investment or 3 feats.  Maneuver levels can be placed at odd levels to get higher level stances and strikes.  While the first level of Crusader would only give you 1st level strikes and stances, if you Multi-classed/PrC'd into something else before taking another Crusader level, you could take higher level stances instead.  Page 39 of Tome of Battle explains this better then I can.
#9 draco1119 Aug 25, 2012 16:23:34	Two quick notes: first, the Goliath only has a +1 LA. Second, bardic music doesn't actually require music. There are some feats and/or PrCs that require a number of ranks in certain Perform skills, but Bardic Music, in and of itself, is keyed off of pretty much any Perform skill. You could perform a war dance, give inspiring speeches, dazzle friend & foe with weapon flourishes (Perform [Weapon Drill] from Complete Warrior), etc.
#10 frost.fire Aug 25, 2012 16:37:59	Thank you I see now I was quite confused as to how multi classing and stance progression worked between martial adepts, and the fact that I don't have to use a horn on a string while fighting with two swords (or whips ) I was quite confused about that interaction, aura of chaos could be acheiveable via crusader warblade too which is a benefit for stacking with my inspire courage
#11 frost.fire Aug 25, 2012 16:40:13	I'm actually quite surprised how well this concept works, I think that tempest_stormwind's a-game pally is intense but its not quite up my ally and I haven't played a warblade and would love to try!
#12 Caker Aug 25, 2012 16:59:55	I have personally played something very close to the build I linked to you, and with another TWF in the group the damage is quite impressive. It is also very straightforward and completely devoid of cheese, so most DMs will allow it.
#13 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 25, 2012 18:25:08	You should see Tempest's singing paladin build, if you REALLY want to rock the house as a melee/buffer. That thing was just plain fun. ==Aelryinth Just pointing out, that is NOT my build; it's Andarious'. I had a small hand in it but it was his work of genius. Also, Draco, Weapon Drill explicitly cannot be used with Bardic Music, sady.
#14 frost.fire Aug 25, 2012 18:36:32	Could the dance work though, I think a dancing twf ( who isn't a dervish) sounds awesome
#15 Andarious-Rosethorn Aug 26, 2012 9:02:10	My turn to shut down A-Game Paladin with this build. Don't do it, too feat intensive, although you could just give up any of the casting related feats and keep all the music stuff, that might work, A-Game Paladin's a feat build more than anything it isn't extremely resiliant to tampering.
#16 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 26, 2012 10:41:23	Not to mention there's a slight problem with the A-Game Paladin and other bardic music feats: He doesn't have any uses of "Bardic Music" to expend. Instead, he expends smites to bring the effect of Inspire Courage. That's why all of his feats modify the effect of Inspire Courage, but none operate off of Bardic Music. Getting to the point, the A-Game Paladin can Inspire (and possibly even Dragonfire Inspire; I'll have to double-check the prerequisites again but I know the effects are compatible), but cannot Snowflake Wardance or anything of the sort. Mind you, with full base attack, heavy Strength synergy, and double-strength Inspire Courage, he doesn't need Snowflake to hit.
#17 Omen_of_Peace Aug 26, 2012 18:09:51	Second, bardic music doesn't actually require music. There are some feats and/or PrCs that require a number of ranks in certain Perform skills, but Bardic Music, in and of itself, is keyed off of pretty much any Perform skill. You could perform a war dance, give inspiring speeches, dazzle friend & foe with weapon flourishes (Perform [Weapon Drill] from Complete Warrior), etc. Not quite. "While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance." I recommend Perform: Oratory if you want to be martial. You can recite old war poems, provide tactical advice, or simply praise your teammates depending on what you feel like doing that round. You can still describe your character as fighting like a dancer if you like the flavour of it.