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Bard Choices

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
vicen_korel
Apr 01, 2008 10:48:56 I'm building a back burner character becuase I'm playing with some newer players and want them to have most of the lime light. I want to be able to buff, heal, and if really needed to pick them back up when they fall over. The DM has allowed me access to alternate class features as a way of showing what is possible within the rules of D&D 3.5.

Book Access includes:
SRD, Core 3.5, PHB2, ToM, LoM
Complete - Adventure, Warrior, Arcane, Mage, Divine
Races of - Dragon, Destiny, Wild

I'm considering one of the following types of builds:

Bard 5 / warchanter 10 / Seeker of the song 5

Beguiler 1 (able learner/Precocious App)/ Divine Bard 5/ Lyric Theurge 10/ finisher PrC of some sort

Divine Bard / something

The first would allow me to have several nice bardic music abilities while backing up the party with a secondary sword swinger if needed.

The second has a problem qualifying for Lyric Theurge but would offer a good spell progression and choices. I thought to use Beguiler becuase I'm not sure if the newer players will grab a rogue and Beguiler will give trapfinding (and the hand crossbow isn't bad either), and Precocious App will let me finish qualifying for the lyric theurge.

The third would be some idea I don't have and that some one here dazzles me with. ;)
#2
Dictum_Mortuum
Apr 01, 2008 11:15:36 The most common bard progression is something like
bard 9/virtuoso 1/sublime chord 2/virtuoso +8
#3
vicen_korel
Apr 01, 2008 11:24:09 Yeah but I can't hit that off of a divine bard as my spells become divine instead of arcane. Hench the level of beguiler
#4
eudemonist
Apr 01, 2008 11:26:06 Fochlucan Lyrist, yo.
#5
Dictum_Mortuum
Apr 01, 2008 11:26:14 oh, i didn't get that. You have to be a divine bard?
#6
vicen_korel
Apr 01, 2008 13:17:47 I don't have to be but I want the Raise Dead without actually going cleric. I guess I could do something with a cloistered cleric, but the bard/bardic music is supposed to be the big focus of the character. RP-wise he's kind of the "celestial choir" type, and I felt Divine bard fit that the best.

If I had the money I'd just go buy Book of Exalted Deeds and that could probably solve most my problems. But with 4th ed coming out and a tight money situation new books aren't an option.
#7
pfooti
Apr 01, 2008 13:41:19 Personally, I'd go with the standard Bard/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso progression and get some scrolls of Raise Dead. Keep your UMD at good levels and you'll be fine. I also like throwing in a few levels of lyric thaumaturge as well, since you'll qualify quite easily.

Frankly, Raise Dead is a really expensive spell - 5,000 gp ain't cheap, and neither is the level loss. When my characters die, I just make a new one.

Some of those builds you had don't progress bardsong very well. The virtuoso sublime chord build does it pretty well, and if you get inspirational boost, a badge of valor and maybe a vest of legends (depending on whether or not it will actually help at that level), you can easily get into the +4 or more range on your inspire courage. Base inspire courage is pretty easy to ignore, but when the bard is giving you +5/+5, that's something to write home about, even at high levels.
#8
vicen_korel
Apr 01, 2008 13:47:10 Yeah I agree, Ok what about the warchanter/seeker of song build? My main question there is: do Combined song abilities stack (i.e. can I work 3 bardic songs at once figuring regular D&D multiplier rules)? The ability to give all my allies the fighters BAB from the warchanter's ability and still be able to give an energy immunity or two would be nice too. However that would come at the expense of almost all my bard's magic. *however seeker of song abilities can make up for this too with the cones and healing and what not.*
#9
pfooti
Apr 01, 2008 13:57:58 I'm pretty ignorant of the ins and outs of the warchanter class. Similarly, I've not spent a lot of time thinking about the seeker of the song. My initial impression of it is that it's subpar, especially in comparison with the sublime chord. I'd rather have 9th-level spells than a few interesting ways to spend my songs.

In general, bardic music keeps going as long as you keep singing it. But you can't sing two things (or sing and cast a spell). Persistent song makes the song last 10 rounds after you're done, and melodic casting lets you cast and keep singing. Some songs have a builtin duration to them, inspire courage lasts for 5 rounds after you stop singing, IIRC. A harmonizing (MIC) weapon will help you sustain songs too.

Some bardsong also requires you to concentrate, which hurts your ability to do many things at once as well. So mostly, it depends on the specific song, whether it requires concentration to maintain, how long the songs last after you've stopped maintaining them, and your feats and items. So: no easy answer there.

Personally, I consider the Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge2/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso8 to be the "iconic" bard build. This is what a bard should be: a high-level caster and buffer, with good uses of inspire courage. Bard9 gets you inspire heroics (which virtuoso advances) if you go that way instead of LT, but I'm not a fan of inspire heroics. Really, the cool bardsong buffs are inspire courage and inspire competence.

The only other kind of iconic bard I can bring to mind would be the gishy arcane warrior-bard. In that case, I'd go with more Lyric Thaumaturge, because I believe it has a 3/4-bab and gives you access to wraithstrike. LT does not, however, advance your inspire courage song (it gives you more songs/day, but that's it).

The other problem with divine bard is it increases your MAD, since you still need some Cha (skills mainly) and now you need a good wis as well. Half the fun of the bard is that it has a good will save, allowing you to skimp on wisdom.
#10
vicen_korel
Apr 02, 2008 0:40:42 I understand about the concentrate ability but both the Seeker of Song and the Warchanter get abilities that allow you to use *and concentrate* on 2 songs at once.

The biggest thing about the warchanter is it's combat progression and new types of songs:

HD: d8, Full BAB, Good Fort, 4+INT SP with decent skills

Inspire Toughness -- temp HP based on class level
Inspire Recklessness -- allies can drop AC for damage (based on BAB cap)
Combine songs -- does as said
Inspire Awe -- fear effects on all foes within 60ft with will save
Singing shout -- give all allies within 60ft +4 enchancement to str as stander action for serveral rounds
Inspire Legion -- give all allies within 60ft BAB equal to the highest BAB of the group or the Warchanters character level.

Seekers of song are strong users of bardic music too gaining songs that offer:
resistances and damage from all five energy types
healing
forced spell concentration
Construct damage
Teleportation
Dismissal based on Perform Ranks
Plus abilities while using bardic music, Combined song *agian allowing 2 songs to be used* and the subvocalize feat.
#11
Dictum_Mortuum
Apr 02, 2008 6:09:01
Personally, I consider the Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge2/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso8 to be the "iconic" bard build. This is what a bard should be: a high-level caster and buffer, with good uses of inspire courage. Bard9 gets you inspire heroics (which virtuoso advances) if you go that way instead of LT, but I'm not a fan of inspire heroics. Really, the cool bardsong buffs are inspire courage and inspire competence.

I personally like bard 9, because i prefer simple builds. Remember that simple is better. Oh, and inspire competence sucks :P, i agree on inspire courage though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 vicen_korel Apr 01, 2008 10:48:56	I'm building a back burner character becuase I'm playing with some newer players and want them to have most of the lime light. I want to be able to buff, heal, and if really needed to pick them back up when they fall over. The DM has allowed me access to alternate class features as a way of showing what is possible within the rules of D&D 3.5. Book Access includes: SRD, Core 3.5, PHB2, ToM, LoM Complete - Adventure, Warrior, Arcane, Mage, Divine Races of - Dragon, Destiny, Wild I'm considering one of the following types of builds: Bard 5 / warchanter 10 / Seeker of the song 5 Beguiler 1 (able learner/Precocious App)/ Divine Bard 5/ Lyric Theurge 10/ finisher PrC of some sort Divine Bard / something The first would allow me to have several nice bardic music abilities while backing up the party with a secondary sword swinger if needed. The second has a problem qualifying for Lyric Theurge but would offer a good spell progression and choices. I thought to use Beguiler becuase I'm not sure if the newer players will grab a rogue and Beguiler will give trapfinding (and the hand crossbow isn't bad either), and Precocious App will let me finish qualifying for the lyric theurge. The third would be some idea I don't have and that some one here dazzles me with. ;)
#2 Dictum_Mortuum Apr 01, 2008 11:15:36	The most common bard progression is something like bard 9/virtuoso 1/sublime chord 2/virtuoso +8
#3 vicen_korel Apr 01, 2008 11:24:09	Yeah but I can't hit that off of a divine bard as my spells become divine instead of arcane. Hench the level of beguiler
#4 eudemonist Apr 01, 2008 11:26:06	Fochlucan Lyrist, yo.
#5 Dictum_Mortuum Apr 01, 2008 11:26:14	oh, i didn't get that. You have to be a divine bard?
#6 vicen_korel Apr 01, 2008 13:17:47	I don't have to be but I want the Raise Dead without actually going cleric. I guess I could do something with a cloistered cleric, but the bard/bardic music is supposed to be the big focus of the character. RP-wise he's kind of the "celestial choir" type, and I felt Divine bard fit that the best. If I had the money I'd just go buy Book of Exalted Deeds and that could probably solve most my problems. But with 4th ed coming out and a tight money situation new books aren't an option.
#7 pfooti Apr 01, 2008 13:41:19	Personally, I'd go with the standard Bard/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso progression and get some scrolls of Raise Dead. Keep your UMD at good levels and you'll be fine. I also like throwing in a few levels of lyric thaumaturge as well, since you'll qualify quite easily. Frankly, Raise Dead is a really expensive spell - 5,000 gp ain't cheap, and neither is the level loss. When my characters die, I just make a new one. Some of those builds you had don't progress bardsong very well. The virtuoso sublime chord build does it pretty well, and if you get inspirational boost, a badge of valor and maybe a vest of legends (depending on whether or not it will actually help at that level), you can easily get into the +4 or more range on your inspire courage. Base inspire courage is pretty easy to ignore, but when the bard is giving you +5/+5, that's something to write home about, even at high levels.
#8 vicen_korel Apr 01, 2008 13:47:10	Yeah I agree, Ok what about the warchanter/seeker of song build? My main question there is: do Combined song abilities stack (i.e. can I work 3 bardic songs at once figuring regular D&D multiplier rules)? The ability to give all my allies the fighters BAB from the warchanter's ability and still be able to give an energy immunity or two would be nice too. However that would come at the expense of almost all my bard's magic. however seeker of song abilities can make up for this too with the cones and healing and what not.
#9 pfooti Apr 01, 2008 13:57:58	I'm pretty ignorant of the ins and outs of the warchanter class. Similarly, I've not spent a lot of time thinking about the seeker of the song. My initial impression of it is that it's subpar, especially in comparison with the sublime chord. I'd rather have 9th-level spells than a few interesting ways to spend my songs. In general, bardic music keeps going as long as you keep singing it. But you can't sing two things (or sing and cast a spell). Persistent song makes the song last 10 rounds after you're done, and melodic casting lets you cast and keep singing. Some songs have a builtin duration to them, inspire courage lasts for 5 rounds after you stop singing, IIRC. A harmonizing (MIC) weapon will help you sustain songs too. Some bardsong also requires you to concentrate, which hurts your ability to do many things at once as well. So mostly, it depends on the specific song, whether it requires concentration to maintain, how long the songs last after you've stopped maintaining them, and your feats and items. So: no easy answer there. Personally, I consider the Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge2/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso8 to be the "iconic" bard build. This is what a bard should be: a high-level caster and buffer, with good uses of inspire courage. Bard9 gets you inspire heroics (which virtuoso advances) if you go that way instead of LT, but I'm not a fan of inspire heroics. Really, the cool bardsong buffs are inspire courage and inspire competence. The only other kind of iconic bard I can bring to mind would be the gishy arcane warrior-bard. In that case, I'd go with more Lyric Thaumaturge, because I believe it has a 3/4-bab and gives you access to wraithstrike. LT does not, however, advance your inspire courage song (it gives you more songs/day, but that's it). The other problem with divine bard is it increases your MAD, since you still need some Cha (skills mainly) and now you need a good wis as well. Half the fun of the bard is that it has a good will save, allowing you to skimp on wisdom.
#10 vicen_korel Apr 02, 2008 0:40:42	I understand about the concentrate ability but both the Seeker of Song and the Warchanter get abilities that allow you to use and concentrate on 2 songs at once. The biggest thing about the warchanter is it's combat progression and new types of songs: HD: d8, Full BAB, Good Fort, 4+INT SP with decent skills Inspire Toughness -- temp HP based on class level Inspire Recklessness -- allies can drop AC for damage (based on BAB cap) Combine songs -- does as said Inspire Awe -- fear effects on all foes within 60ft with will save Singing shout -- give all allies within 60ft +4 enchancement to str as stander action for serveral rounds Inspire Legion -- give all allies within 60ft BAB equal to the highest BAB of the group or the Warchanters character level. Seekers of song are strong users of bardic music too gaining songs that offer: resistances and damage from all five energy types healing forced spell concentration Construct damage Teleportation Dismissal based on Perform Ranks Plus abilities while using bardic music, Combined song agian allowing 2 songs to be used and the subvocalize feat.
#11 Dictum_Mortuum Apr 02, 2008 6:09:01	Personally, I consider the Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge2/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso8 to be the "iconic" bard build. This is what a bard should be: a high-level caster and buffer, with good uses of inspire courage. Bard9 gets you inspire heroics (which virtuoso advances) if you go that way instead of LT, but I'm not a fan of inspire heroics. Really, the cool bardsong buffs are inspire courage and inspire competence. I personally like bard 9, because i prefer simple builds. Remember that simple is better. Oh, and inspire competence sucks :P, i agree on inspire courage though.