Bard Inspire Courage Optimization

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Mistwell

Mar 25, 2007 15:42:38
Thanks to EvilVegan for this new format:

Inspire Courage (Su)
A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.

Feats

Direct Improvements to Inspire Courage

Song of the Heart (ECS, pg. 60): Bonus granted by your music increases by +1.

Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic). Convert inspire courage bonuses to elemental damage depending on dragon type.

Words of Creation (BoED, pg. 48). Get DM approval. Doubles bonus from bardic music effects, but you take subdual damage.

Other feats for bardic music

Music of Growth (ECS): Kind of like Augment Summoning but with singing.

Melodic Casting (CM, pg. 44): Replace Concentration with Perform. Cast spells/use items while maintaining bardic music.

Song of the White Raven (ToB) Activate Bardic Music as a swift action. (Doesn't work well with the spell Inspirational Boost).

Lingering Song (CA, pg. 111): Bardic Music lasts 1 minute after you stop playing.

Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn): Expend Bardic music to get Charisma to damage.

Spells

Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium, pg. 124): +1 to inspire courage. Can be used during the start of bardic music for longer lasting effect.

Equipment

Vest of Legends (DMG II, pg. 272). Bonus to Diplomacy and Perform. Treated as a bard of higher level for bardic music bonuses.

Badge of Valor (MIC, pg. 208). Bonus on Charm or Fear saves. Or +1 to inspire courage. Either 3/day.

Crystal Echoblade (MIC). Bonus Sonic Damage while using bardic music.

Harmonizing Weapon (MIC). Bonus on Perform checks and the weapon maintains the bardic music, allowing you to cast spells or activate items.

Gaulents of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon#314, p20) Fire Damage bonus to your weapon equal to charisma bonus.

Prestige Classes

Dread Pirate (CA)- Improves Inspire Courage faster than standard bard.

Battle Howler of Gruumsh (Dragon#311) stacks with bard for bardic music uses per day and affects, bardic spells and the 4th lvl ability increases the bonus of inspire courage by 1 as well as make the radius 60 feet.

Heartfire Fanner (Dragon#314) grants bonus feats, free metamagic up to +2 and increase the duration of spells and ex abilities by your Cha Modifier in rounds. Gives full spellcasting, bardic music per day, and teachers the bard all the bardic music affects of a normal bard, but inspire courage is not advanced.

Tips

1) If you have both inspirational boost and a badge of valor, activate them in this order inspirational boost->inspire courage->badge of valor. This uses your swift/immediate actions for the first 2 rounds of the inspire courage, but gives you the full benefit for the duration of the song.

2) A harmonizing weapon helps negate the need for the melodic casting feat, but melodic casting does have additional benefit of freeing up some skill points.
#2

ophanimx

Mar 25, 2007 16:27:55
I don't have the book (it's in Dragon Magic), but I know Dragonfire Inspiration works well with Inspire Courage builds. It does something along the lines of allowing a bard to add 1d6 sonic damage per +1 of Inspire Courage to every weapon of the party.

Haunting Melody isn't that bad of a feat, either. Especially if you can convince the DM that some of these spells and feats increase it's effectiveness.

Edit: You may not want to post the exact text of the feats and items.
#3

Mistwell

Mar 27, 2007 23:25:10
New useful item for this build, from the Magic Item Compendium:

Crystal Echoblade
Price (Item Level)" 4,310 gp (9th)
Body Slot: - (held)
Caster Level: 10th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) evocation
Activation: -
Weight: 4 lb.

A crystal echoblade normally functions as a +1 longsword, but is enhanced by your musical ability. If you use your bardic music ability while wielding the weapon, the blade resonates in harmony, dealing additional sonic damage on each attack equal to half your bard level.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Bardic Music
Cost to Create: 2,000 go (plus 310 gp for masterwork longsword), 160 XP, 4 days.

The MIC says "You can increase the enhancement bonus of these weapons or add more special properties just as you would for any other item." Great! So, let's enhance it with the Harmonizing ability, a +1 ability from MIC:

Price: +1 bonus
Property: Melee Weapon
Caster Level: 5th
Aura: Faint (DC 17) Illusion
Activation: --; see text

A harmonizing weapon accompanies you in song if drawn, granting a +2 competence bonus on Perform (sing) checks.
In addition, if you hold a harmonizing weapon when you begin a bardic music effect, the weapon can continue the effect for you, allowing you to focus on other efforts. One round after you begin a bardic music effect that allows or requires continued use or concentration (including inspire courage, countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire greatness, song of freedom, and inspire heroics), the weapon picks up and continues the performance flawlessly for 10 rounds, until you start another bardic music effect, or until you command it to end as a swift (mental) action.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, ghost sound, bardic music.
Cost to Create: Varies.

So, a Crystal Echoblade of Harmonizing would be 10,310 gp. And it eliminates the need for one of the other feats that this build was likely to take (Melodic Casting), while significantly bumping your own damage up.
#4

friendlyfrog

Mar 28, 2007 3:33:35
That Crystal echoblade sounds very tasty. A two-weapon fighting Paladin 4/Bard 16 with Divine smite and Snowflake wardance became even stronger. Hooray for melee Bards!
#5

Mistwell

Mar 31, 2007 0:40:31
That Crystal echoblade sounds very tasty. A two-weapon fighting Paladin 4/Bard 16 with Divine smite and Snowflake wardance became even stronger. Hooray for melee Bards!

Which book is snowflake wardance from?
#6

Dictum_Mortuum

Mar 31, 2007 2:41:07
Which book is snowflake wardance from?

frostburn
#7

friendlyfrog

Mar 31, 2007 19:19:29
Snowflake wardance is just great! Cha to attack for a very good duration for only a single Bardic music use? Sing me up!

Hmm, I've been trying to make that two-weapon fighting Bard, but I'm having serious trouble fitting all the feats in the build: I need Devoted performer, the three two-weapon fighting feats and Oversized two-weapon fighting, Power attack and Divine smite, Snowflake wardance and Words of creation. And things like Somatic weaponry and Practiced spelcaster would be really good, too.

By using the 3.0 weapon enhancement Balanced to get rid of needing OTWF, it would become doable.
#8

blue23

Mar 31, 2007 19:44:52
Snowflake wardance is just great! Cha to attack for a very good duration for only a single Bardic music use? Sing me up!

Hmm, I've been trying to make that two-weapon fighting Bard, but I'm having serious trouble fitting all the feats in the build: I need Devoted performer, the three two-weapon fighting feats and Oversized two-weapon fighting, Power attack and Divine smite, Snowflake wardance and Words of creation. And things like Somatic weaponry and Practiced spelcaster would be really good, too.

I think we're going a bit off topic, but I was playing with a build just for a bit of fun, not something that I was planning on playing, that was like this. I took Exotic Weapon Prof (Dragonsplits) from MM4, which could as light for TWF and Weapon Finesse, but are 1H - this is the same as Oversized Two Weapon Fighting in regards to penalities and power attack, but did let me take a level of Exotic Weapon Master from Complete Warrior for Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting to reduce the penalty to -1. I had a lot of non-bard levels. War Chanter (CW) for inspire recklessness - penalize AC, add to BAB, which works very nicely for Power attack TWF with 1H weapons. I also had several levels of fighter and two of Battle Trickster from Complete Scoundrel, since I had plenty of skill points for tricks. I ended up not worrying about spells at all.

But to try to drag this back on topic, since we're talking about melee bards but the topic is Inspire Courage, levels of Fochulan Lyricist (sp?) from Complete Adventurer will add to bard levels for what you gain so it will advance your Inspire Courage, with full BAB, arcane casting, and divine casting.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)
#9

bsdraggon

Apr 01, 2007 11:28:51
Snowflake wardance is just great! Cha to attack for a very good duration for only a single Bardic music use? Sing me up!

Hmm, I've been trying to make that two-weapon fighting Bard, but I'm having serious trouble fitting all the feats in the build: I need Devoted performer, the three two-weapon fighting feats and Oversized two-weapon fighting, Power attack and Divine smite, Snowflake wardance and Words of creation. And things like Somatic weaponry and Practiced spelcaster would be really good, too.

By using the 3.0 weapon enhancement Balanced to get rid of needing OTWF, it would become doable.

I'm trying to do this build too, and the first thing I was thinking is dropping Words of Creation beacuse it needs 15 int, and paladins suffer from MAD.
To fit in the feats it would be graet to use the flaws from UA, and maybe 1 or 2 fighters leves. The downside would be the XP penality, but you could solve it with the Diverse Background feat from Races of Destiny, which let you choose a second favored class if you are a half-human. I think that a human withe the Draconic Creature Template (LA+1, RoD) could qualify for the feat.

My idea is:

1 - Bard - Power Attack, TWF, Diverse Background(flaw), Over TWF(flaw)
2 - Paladin
3 - Paladin - Devoted Performer
4 - Paladin
5 - Paladin
6 - Fighter - Divine Smite, (open)
7 - Bard
8 - Fighter - Improved TWF
9 - Bard - Somatic Weaponry
12 - Bard - Snowflake Wardance
15 - Bard - Arcane Strike
18 - Bard - Greater TWF(if you have 19 dex, which is pretty hard for this build)

I just wish I could get Somatic Weaponry or Snowflake Wardence before...It would be really cool if one of this two feats were fighter feats so I could take one at 6th level...
For taking Song of the Heart, I don't remember where it says, but you can drop any bard ability (like suggestion) and take a bardic music feat in the place...
#10

merlinthetuna

Apr 01, 2007 12:23:23
Another feat suggestion: Song of the White Raven, from Tome of Battle. While in a White Raven stance, you can activate Inspire Courage as a swift action, and Crusader, Warblade and Bard levels stack to determine its strength.
#11

surreal

Apr 01, 2007 13:01:34
How about instead of the TWF-bard, maybe something with natural attacks? Maybe Catfolk with pounce, a touch of Incarnum, then paladin/bard, then... bloodclaw master? Just throwing out random thoughts.
#12

bsdraggon

Apr 01, 2007 13:15:53
Another feat suggestion: Song of the White Raven, from Tome of Battle. While in a White Raven stance, you can activate Inspire Courage as a swift action, and Crusader, Warblade and Bard levels stack to determine its strength.

Yeah, I think about it too, but then I realized: First, I need those fighters levels for the feats and I wouldn't like to drop Bard levels, since I would lose damage from the Crystal Echoblade and second because if I activate Inspire Courage as a swift action I can't use Inspirational Boost, which requires a swift action too...
#13

merlinthetuna

Apr 01, 2007 14:06:29
...and second because if I activate Inspire Courage as a swift action I can't use Inspirational Boost, which requires a swift action too...

Yeah, I realized that as I mentioned it, but by no means are you required to activate it as a swift action, you just get it as an option. You can still Inspire Courage with a standard action and Inspirational Boost as a swift until you run out of slots, then start using Song of the White Raven. After all, if you use Inspirational Boost every single time you Inspire Courage (which will be pretty much every encounter), you might as well not have any other 1st level spells known.

Still, if you're strapped for feats, it's probably not high up on the list of "must haves." I was actually just pointing it out for inclusion in the main list of Inspire Courage helpers, not for your build in particular -- I haven't actually looked at that yet.
#14

bsdraggon

Apr 01, 2007 14:22:34
Yeah, I realized that as I mentioned it, but by no means are you required to activate it as a swift action, you just get it as an option. You can still Inspire Courage with a standard action and Inspirational Boost as a swift until you run out of slots, then start using Song of the White Raven. After all, if you use Inspirational Boost every single time you Inspire Courage (which will be pretty much every encounter), you might as well not have any other 1st level spells known.

Still, if you're strapped for feats, it's probably not high up on the list of "must haves." I was actually just pointing it out for inclusion in the main list of Inspire Courage helpers, not for your build in particular -- I haven't actually looked at that yet.

Still it is a very good feat, especially if you are a martial adept loking for a dip into bard, and I really missed the fact that you can activate it as standard action normaly if you want :D
In the end, it gives more versatility, if you don't have enough time to buff with Inspirational Boost;)
#15

friendlyfrog

Apr 02, 2007 6:54:45
How about instead of the TWF-bard, maybe something with natural attacks? Maybe Catfolk with pounce, a touch of Incarnum, then paladin/bard, then... bloodclaw master? Just throwing out random thoughts.

Well, you wouldn't get the bonus from Crystal echoblade, but otherwise it would work pretty well. If one could incorporate the Landshark boots into the build, the Slippers of battledancing would allow him to use his Cha modifier to hit and damage instead of his Str modifier.

That would make a pretty interesting character at the lower levels: Azurin Bard 2/Totemist 2/Paladin 4, Able to do a jump as a move action followed by four attacks at 9+Cha*2 attack bonus doing 1d6+3+Cha*2 damage before Power attack, assuming he's using both Snowflake wardance and Divine smite and when all essentia is invested to the Landshark boots.

EDIT 1: One would need one more level to be able to take all the feats with that build. One more level of Bard would let one have an Inspire courage bonus of +2 with the Vest of Legends, making the attack bonus 12+Cha*2 and damage 1d6+5+Cha*2.

EDIT 2: Damn, Slippers of Battledancing cost 33,750 gp. One needs to be at higher level to get them. Azurin Bard 4/Totemist 4/Paladin 4 would work:

Azurin

1. Bard 1 --- Power attack, Open feat
2. Bard 2
3. Paladin 1 --- Devoted performer
4. Paladin 2
5. Paladin 3
6. Paladin 4 --- Divine smite
7. Totemist 1
8. Totemist 2
9. Bard 3 --- Snowflake wardance
10. Totemist 3
11. Totemist 4
12. Bard 4 --- Bonus essentia?

With 32 point buy:
Str: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 17

With a Cloak of Charisma +4 and all three bonuses from leveling going to Charisma, we end up with a Charisma of 24, that's a +7 modifier. Let's assume we have Inspirational boost running, for a +3 bonus from Inspire courage. We now have four claw attacks at +31 attack bonus each, and all doing 1d6+21 damage before power attack, assuming we're using both Divine smite and Snowflake wardance. Not that bad.
#16

bsdraggon

Apr 02, 2007 20:39:41
A 20th level bard with the "Vest of legends" would have the +5 inspire courage from epic levels or he can't have it because he's not epic?

If he can, we would have:
+5*2(Words)=+10
+10+1(inspirational boost)+1(song of the heart)+1(badge of valor)=+13

With Dragonfire Inspiration it would become +13d6 damage
#17

Mistwell

Apr 06, 2007 12:30:38
BSDRAGGON mentioned in a related thread this useful find:

Dragonfire Inspiration, from Dragon Magic, makes every +1 from inspire courage become +1d6 fire damage. You need the dragonblood subtype, bardic music, and Cha 11.

The Spellscale race from Races of Dragon has a bonus to charisma and is the dragonblooded subtype I believe? Perhaps that race would work best with such a build.
#18

friendlyfrog

Apr 06, 2007 13:02:28
Dragonfire inspiration is even better if you can get Draconic heritage, as it will change the damage type to match that of your dragon heritage, opening up sonic damage. With your "normal" Bard that has a +10 Inspire courage bonus, adding 10d6 sonic damage to each attack of every ally is damn good.

I tried to make a two-weapon fighting Half-orc Paladin with a dip into Bard and the Initiate of Milil, but it was way too feat heavy to pull off.
#19

OneWinged4ngel

Apr 10, 2007 23:19:22
Err, what's "Divine Smite" from?
#20

rhuxley

Apr 11, 2007 10:43:21
Dread Pirate gets an ability that stacks with inspire courage, and the bonus comes every 3 levels instead of every 6 levels.

At Level 15:
Bard 9
Dread Pirate 6 (QD & WF are prerequisites... see 'feats' below)

Equipment: vest of legends, badge of valor, masterwork horn
Spells: Inspirational Boost
Feats: Song of the heart, words of creation, quick draw, weapon finesse, 2 others.

Inspire Courage: +18 (2 from bard, 2 from dread pirate, 1 from vest of legends, 1 from horn, 1 from badge of valor, 1 from song of the heart, 1 from inspirational boost, multiply that 9 by 2 for words of creation.)
#21

Dictum_Mortuum

Apr 11, 2007 10:57:06
i think that only base inspire courage gets multiplied by words of wisdom.

so at best it's a 13 or a 11 if you count only bard inspire courage.
#22

rhuxley

Apr 11, 2007 11:06:23
i think that only base inspire courage gets multiplied by words of wisdom.

so at best it's a 13 or a 11 if you count only bard inspire courage.

I think that falls into DM call zone, but all the same, 11 - 18 is damn good
#23

friendlyfrog

Apr 12, 2007 13:36:55
Err, what's "Divine Smite" from?

That's supposed to be Divine might, the feat from Complete Warrior...
#24

yeshua

Aug 22, 2007 3:33:32
I have seen a few folks cite Words of Creation feat as doubling your IC bonus. Been browsing Bard info, gonna play a lvl 3 next week for the first time, borrowed BoED just to check the feat out.

My very first thought upon reading the description was "OK, but that is just BASE bonus." I reread it a few times, and while i will conceed that the RAW do not get extremely specific as to how it relates to other bonuses, i won't even be trying to present it to my DM as a blanket double to Inspire courage. It says it doubles the bonus, and then cites how it doubles the bonus. Any further additions would add to that (doubled) base.



I am going to try to work it in though if we play this campaign out into 8-10 range. It seems like good Sublime Chord material, and it seems that the entire Book of Exalted Deeds is a "you better have a good reason for this" bit of source material.



Thank you all for all the material on these forums. (first post)
#25

kurobara

Aug 22, 2007 11:50:59
I don't have the book (it's in Dragon Magic), but I know Dragonfire Inspiration works well with Inspire Courage builds. It does something along the lines of allowing a bard to add 1d6 sonic damage per +1 of Inspire Courage to every weapon of the party.

Defaults to fire. However, if you are a dragon, half-dragon, have the Draconic Heritage feat, etc., it becomes the damage type of the breath weapon. Battle Dragons (Drac) and Emerald Dragons (MMII, I think) both will let you do sonic - out of the core dragon types, I'd probably go with Copper, Black, or Green for acid.

Also worth noting is that I don't think Inspirational Boost and the Badge of Valor are stackable, since they both take a swift action to activate and the former, for sure, has to be the same turn you activate the music. Not sure on the latter, it doesn't explicitly state.
#26

phaedrusxy

Aug 22, 2007 12:18:25
Also worth noting is that I don't think Inspirational Boost and the Badge of Valor are stackable, since they both take a swift action to activate and the former, for sure, has to be the same turn you activate the music. Not sure on the latter, it doesn't explicitly state.

Badge of Valor is an Immediate action, actually. So, assuming that it still applies even if you activate it after you start your Bardic Music, it is possible to use both. You use Inspirational Boost on your turn, and then use the Badge of Valor immediately after your turn ends (which uses up your Swift action for the next round).
#27

kremti

Aug 22, 2007 16:46:05
Another thing to add...

Harmonize and Greater Harmonize spells from Races of Stone (Level 2 and 4 Bard spells respectively) let you initiate the bardic musics as move action, instead of standard action. If you end up stacking Inspire Courage, Greatness, and Heroics, you get to start'em as move action, and you'll still have standard action to do other stuff...

-K
#28

phoenix00

Aug 22, 2007 17:18:54
Another thing about the wonderful Dragonfire inspiration. Dragonfire Inspiration is not a moral bonus to attack and damage like normal Inspire Courage is, it is a flat untyped energy bonus.

This means you can get 5 bards to do this.

Round 1
Bard 1: Gives Sonic Damage
Bard 2: Gives Fire Damage
Bard 3: Gives Cold Damage
Bard 4: Gives Elecriticy Damage
Bard 5: Gives Acid Damage

Round 2:
Bard 1: Uses his traditional Inspire Courage Ability, he is now giving the attack bonus and attack damage to his allies.

Note instead of 5 bards you can have a 6th bard. The one who uses traditional inspire courage though has to delay his initative until after the 5 energy bards use their inspire courage else it is lossed.

Good Catch on the Dread Pirate, I didn't even notice that before but knew of all the other ways to boost a bard.

------------------------------------

I can see now great addition to an eberron world. Pirates who fly airships similar to skies of arcadia/eberrron. The most feared pirate group is the 5 dragon clan, who boasts 5 captains who each has a unique dragon as a totem. They are feared all through out eberron. There crews consists of normal bards, variant bards (such as the one who produces fear instead of courage), warrior skallad (imported from Forgotten Realms), Warchanters (who boost the bab of the weaker pirates), Sublime Chord/Virutsos (need magic after all to provide teleport for the pirates), and lowly pirates archers (whose bab are boosted by the warchanters) as well as other forms of variant pirates/bard themes.

Add in some bards who are also paladin of slaughter
lion barbarian subsitution level from Complete Champion
TOB adepts (with song of the white raven)
and/or bards who have taken snowflake wardance.
Also add the feat where you can give DR of 5/- to one person, have the medium level people do it for the captain.

Oh having lowly pirates (bards/crusaders with song of the white raven) using white raven tactics on the pirate captains can get pretty sick real quick.

The 5 dragon clan is so powerful that when the 5 captains work together and are all in one location there power can threaten nations. It is a small organization, small and elite, only boasting about 400 pirates (which is the most Blackbeard every had). They purposefully reduce their numbers, only allowing the strong to join, and sacrificing the weak in battle (or giving them jobs that are non-pirate related such as spies, cooks at the base, merchants who travel and sell there wares in exchange for gold) for each additional man is a smaller share of the bounty.

Note though they are only powerful if the 5 dragon captians are working together, if they aren't working together they are much weaker. Because pirates are naturally looking out for number 1 and they are all captains they are plotting backstabbing but won't do so unless they know it will be safe and they don't expect a betrayl/mutiny of their own.

Only thing you really need to do now is import the exalted feat words of creation to a similar evil feat.
#29

phaedrusxy

Aug 22, 2007 17:41:25
That's freakin' awesome, Phoenix00. If I ever get to DM again, I'll have to use that. And people still say bards are weak. :D
#30

phoenix00

Aug 22, 2007 18:46:13
PhaedrusXY is correct looking at my books Badge of Valor is an immediate action and you can activate it during any time your inspire courage is in effect (thus if you want you can activate it in the 3rd turn instead of the 1st and inspire courage will get a boost, this is often going to be wasteful get it done as soon as possible.)

Furthermore just like Badge of Valor you can use Inspirational Boost after you use your Inspire Courage. The boost to Inspire Courage from Inspirational Boost will last till the duration of Inspirational Boost ends. This though is wasteful for if you start Inspirational Boost after Inspire Courage then the durational of Inspirational Boost is only 1 round.

Thus always use Inspirational Boost prior to the Badge of Valor.

Also the Masterwork Mandolin (smaller version of Lute which is similar to a guitar) from Complete Adventurer page 127 will boost the bonus of attack rolls by 1 but subtract the bonus to damage rolls by -1. This is a nice instrument with Dragonfire Inspiration for Dragonfire Inspiration gives you boost to damage equal to your moral bonus to attack. It is something from nothing (unlike its intended use.)
#31

crimsondeath

Aug 22, 2007 19:30:13
Defaults to fire. However, if you are a dragon, half-dragon, have the Draconic Heritage feat, etc., it becomes the damage type of the breath weapon. Battle Dragons (Drac) and Emerald Dragons (MMII, I think) both will let you do sonic - out of the core dragon types, I'd probably go with Copper, Black, or Green for acid.

Sapphire dragons (MM2) also do sonic damage.
#32

phoenix00

Aug 22, 2007 19:37:04
Sapphire dragons (MM2) also do sonic damage.

There is a huge 1 page list in Races of the Dragon of all the dragons you can choose for Draconic Heritage. Much larger than Dragon Magic or Complete Arcane's list. It even has a part where the DM can add dragons to the list.

Battle, Emerald, Howling, and Pyroclastic give sonic. According to the table Sapphire give Elecriticty.
#33

friendlyfrog

Aug 23, 2007 6:42:07
Lets optimize the all-Bard-party even further! Five is all that's needed, but six of them would be easier to pull off.

Some of them (2, 3, even 4?) should be Bard 16/Paladin 4, OTWF style with two Crystal echoblades, Divine might and some buffs. These are the guys that deal damage. A lot of damage.

At least one, preferably two, should be Bard 8/Virstuoso 2/Sublime chord 2/Virtuoso +8. This'll be the caster of the group. For spells, all those normal great Wiz/Sorc picks, and as mamy party buffs as there's room for. Having two makes selecting the spells a lot easier.

How about a Bard 2/Marshal 2/Fighter 2/Warrior skald 7/War chanter 7? Has multiple fear inducing songs, so Dreadful wrath would be a great pick for a feat. Inspire recklesness + Power attack is fun, especially if we fit Pounce, Leap attack and Shock trooper there. Though Insipre recklessness seems to be a morale bonus, hmm.
#34

phoenix00

Aug 23, 2007 9:15:50
throw a level maybe 2 of marshall on those 2 sublime chords for Bard 8 is a dead level and you only need 7 levels of Bard for sublime chord.

have all the main bards take leadership. Have one of the bards be warchanter 10 for inspire legion (give bab to everybody of the highest person in 60 feet). Make your followers small races such as petals so you can fit more within a radius of 60 feet. Have one of your cohorts be a kensia and use the trick where a kensai can sacrifice up to 10 bab and give it to one person (thus increasing the bab of the warchanter to 20+). Now all those lvl 1 followers have 4+attacks at a ridiculous amount of damage due to the 5 energy buffs and the typical inspire courage.

To protect such fragile followers have one bard ready a wall of force which he dismisses at a signal, then have all the followers fire the arrows/projectiles (which were readied or the followers just delayed their initative), followed by another bard releasing a new wall of force which he readied.

Also to hit matters more than to damage with such a party (you are already doing enough damage with your 5 energies and your typical inspire courage). Thus paladin 4 for divine might may be useless and there may be better feats to take.

MIC Bow of song
Charming the Arrow (use charisma instead of dex for arrows)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a
#35

Dictum_Mortuum

Aug 23, 2007 9:38:37
would a single bard affect his animated objects with inspire courage?
#36

phoenix00

Aug 23, 2007 11:40:54
would a single bard affect his animated objects with inspire courage?

no because animated objects are constructs and thus immune to mind affecting effects. Summon Monsters on the other hand would work.
#37

phaedrusxy

Aug 23, 2007 11:54:39
I noticed that the Music of Growth feat is Uber as hell for a bard that travels around with a druid, especially if the bard also has Song of the Heart. +6 to Str and Con for all animals, for a bard song? Sign me up please!

Also, couldn't you use Music of Growth one round, and then use your normal (twinked out) Inspire Courage the next round?
#38

phoenix00

Aug 23, 2007 12:14:11
Opening the Dragon Can of worms.

Dragon 311 has Battle Howler of Gruumsh which stacks with bardic music for times per day and affects, bardic spells and the 4th lvl ability increases the bonus of inspire courage by 1 as well as make the radius 60 feet.

Dragon 314 has Hearfire Fanner which grants bonus feats, free metamagic up to +2 and increase the duration of spells and ex abilities by x rounds where x is your charisma modifer. Gives full spellcasting, bardic music per day, and teachers the bard all the bardic music affects of a normal bard but inspire courage is not advanced.

Did you get the Song of Growth feat name right PhaedrusXY?
#39

phaedrusxy

Aug 23, 2007 12:42:35
Nope, it's Music of Growth.
#40

Mistwell

Aug 26, 2007 22:03:14
Book of 9 Swords may help with this build. The Song of the White Raven feat lets you both activate inspire courage as a swift action while in a White Raven Stance, and lets your crusader and warblade levels stack with your bard levels to determine the bonus granted by your inspire courage ability.

I think a White Raven focused crusader or warblade, combined with bard, could be a pretty powerful combination.
#41

olala88

Aug 30, 2007 5:01:07
Gaulents of heartfelt blows (dragon# 314 p 20) cost 12 000 gp but let you get fire damage bonus to your wepon equal to charisma bonus. It works all the time.

Btw why wude the badge of valor bonus and the inspirational boost stack?
#42

phoenix00

Aug 30, 2007 8:16:14
Gaulents of heartfelt blows (dragon# 314 p 20) cost 12 000 gp but let you get fire damage bonus to your wepon equal to charisma bonus. It works all the time.

Btw why wude the badge of valor bonus and the inspirational boost stack?

Because they are untyped bonuses from different sources.
#43

Harliquinn

Aug 30, 2007 9:32:24
Also, couldn't you use Music of Growth one round, and then use your normal (twinked out) Inspire Courage the next round?

I don't see why not. The first Music of Growth though will end in 5 rounds (Or whenever it says it ends after the bard stops performing) after you start up the Inspire Courage.

Harliquinn
#44

xeorsos

Sep 09, 2007 15:36:44
I'm loving the idea of Dragonfire Inspiration and changing that fire to Sonic, because let's face it, nothing has resistance to sonic. Right now, best I can figure, it's 2 feats to get this (Dragontouched and then Draconic Heritage: Emerald Dragon). Any way to get around this one?

My personal solution was to play a Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic) and argue that though it's not expressly written, the character is obviously descended from Silver Dragons and thus gets Cold Damage instead of Fire. It's not a bad trade, either. I lose the skill point in favor of Feather Fall 1/day and the dragonblooded subtype.

Thoughts?
#45

evilvegan

Oct 15, 2007 11:50:52
Can we get the first post reformatted for clarity? It jumps around a bit. (Removing stuff that Violates CoC might be a good idea as well)

Inspire Courage (Su)
A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.

Feats

Direct Improvements to Inspire Courage

Song of the Heart (ECS, pg. 60): Bonus granted by your music increases by +1.

Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic). Convert inspire courage bonuses to elemental damage depending on dragon type.

Words of Creation (BoED, pg. 48). Get DM approval. Doubles bonus from bardic music effects, but you take subdual damage.

Other feats for bardic music

Music of Growth (ECS): Kind of like Augment Summoning but with singing.

Melodic Casting (CM, pg. 44): Replace Concentration with Perform. Cast spells/use items while maintaining bardic music.

Song of the White Raven (ToB) Activate Bardic Music as a swift action. (Doesn't work well with the spell Inspirational Boost).

Lingering Song (CA, pg. 111): Bardic Music lasts 1 minute after you stop playing.

Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn): Expend Bardic music to get Charisma to damage.

Spells

Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium, pg. 124): +1 to inspire courage. Can be used during the start of bardic music for longer lasting effect.

Equipment

Vest of Legends (DMG II, pg. 272). Bonus to Diplomacy and Perform. Treated as a bard of higher level for bardic music bonuses.

Badge of Valor (MIC, pg. 208). Bonus on Charm or Fear saves. Or +1 to inspire courage. Either 3/day.

Crystal Echoblade (MIC). Bonus Sonic Damage while using bardic music.

Harmonizing Weapon (MIC). Bonus on Perform checks and the weapon maintains the bardic music, allowing you to cast spells or activate items.

Gaulents of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon#314, p20) Fire Damage bonus to your weapon equal to charisma bonus.

Prestige Classes

Dread Pirate (CA)- Improves Inspire Courage faster than standard bard.

Battle Howler of Gruumsh (Dragon#311) stacks with bard for bardic music uses per day and affects, bardic spells and the 4th lvl ability increases the bonus of inspire courage by 1 as well as make the radius 60 feet.

Heartfire Fanner (Dragon#314) grants bonus feats, free metamagic up to +2 and increase the duration of spells and ex abilities by your Cha Modifier in rounds. Gives full spellcasting, bardic music per day, and teachers the bard all the bardic music affects of a normal bard, but inspire courage is not advanced.

Tips

1) If you have both inspirational boost and a badge of valor, activate them in this order inspirational boost->inspire courage->badge of valor. This uses your swift/immediate actions for the first 2 rounds of the inspire courage, but gives you the full benefit for the duration of the song.

2) A harmonizing weapon helps negate the need for the melodic casting feat, but melodic casting does have additional benefit of freeing up some skill points.



If anyone has further suggestions would you please include page numbers and sources for the things you suggest?
#46

phaedrusxy

Oct 15, 2007 13:19:13
1) If you have both inspirational boost and a badge of valor, activate the badge on round 2 of the music effect and use inspirational boost right before starting the song. The badge's effects continue for the duration of the bardic music where inspirational boost would only last one round if cast after the music has started.

You can actually activate the Badge immediately after your turn ends. You don't have to wait until round 2.

It is an immediate action, and you can take it outside of your normal turn. Doing so uses up your swift action for the next round. So effectively, this "trick" lets you use the Badge and Inspirational Boost in the same round (one during your turn, and one just after it).
#47

evilvegan

Oct 15, 2007 14:37:35
I don't know what you're talking about.
#48

operation_shoestring

Oct 15, 2007 15:12:47
What is "over TWF"
#49

evilvegan

Oct 15, 2007 15:20:22
Oversized two weapon fighting.
#50

operation_shoestring

Oct 15, 2007 15:43:19
Oversized two weapon fighting.

ah thanks.

If you're building an all-bard party, why not have a war weaver?

Hell, if we're going to be be so buff heavy, Dread Commando lets you give EVERYONE withing 30 ft a Initiative boost,
#51

evilvegan

Oct 18, 2007 11:26:27
Anyone know any more spells or abilities that bump inspire courage?!
#52

Khan_the_Destroyer

Oct 18, 2007 13:44:12
I noticed that the Music of Growth feat is Uber as hell for a bard that travels around with a druid, especially if the bard also has Song of the Heart. +6 to Str and Con for all animals, for a bard song? Sign me up please!

Also, couldn't you use Music of Growth one round, and then use your normal (twinked out) Inspire Courage the next round?

You can take the Savage Bard variant in Unearthed Arcana and grab Greenbound Summoning.

Now you can summon your own animals. They'll get pumped up by Greenbound Summoning, Music of Growth, and Inspire Courage.
#53

crimsondeath

Oct 18, 2007 14:29:15
You can take the Savage Bard variant in Unearthed Arcana and grab Greenbound Summoning.

Now you can summon your own animals. They'll get pumped up by Greenbound Summoning, Music of Growth, and Inspire Courage.

With Greenbound Summoning, you summon plants, not animals. I hope one of those feats lets you effect plants with your bardic music.
#54

evilvegan

Oct 19, 2007 6:42:54
I think Music of Growth does, but if not there's Green Ear.
#55

quickenedwish

Oct 26, 2007 17:07:32
I posed this to the simple question/simple answer thread, but I will post it here, as I think it may be of some interest to the people here:

With the Dragonfire Inspiration feat, one can "choose" to turn the morale bonus to attack roll from Inspire Courage into an extra 1d6 damage of varying energy types. One would usually try and nab sonic. Using this option you lose the morale bonuses normally produced by this bardic music.

Let us assume that we can start and maintain two bardic musics at once (through class abilities like combine songs and harmonizing weapons).

My question is, can one start 2 instances of Inspire Courage, one where we "choose" to use Dragonfire Inspiration and one where we "choose" not to?

The only text I can see that would be relevant is that bardic music follows normal stacking rules. One could, for example, perform two instances of unaltered Inspire Courage, but the effects would not stack. This would not apply, of course, if we were using one instance of Dragonfire Inspiration.

The 8-12d6 sonic damage is good, but I really hate giving up the morale bonus to attack and damage. This way, we get the best of both worlds.
#56

phaedrusxy

Oct 26, 2007 17:51:46
You can take the Savage Bard variant in Unearthed Arcana and grab Greenbound Summoning.

Now you can summon your own animals. They'll get pumped up by Greenbound Summoning, Music of Growth, and Inspire Courage.

Oh noes! It's Bardzilla!
#57

tshern

Oct 30, 2007 10:14:30
Slippers of Battledancing add your charisma modifier to damage and to hit. Maybe they should be mentioned in the equipment section.
#58

patinho_amarelo

Oct 30, 2007 13:11:31
Well... Still has "Harmony" of the Magic of Faerun (Pag. 100)...
#59

jameswilliamogle

Oct 30, 2007 13:27:36
Could a Bard use both regular Inspire Courage and the Dragonfire Inspiration? I'm looking for a reason why not... and can't find one. Maybe Lingering Song to combine the two?
#60

phoenix00

Oct 30, 2007 13:31:31
Well... Still has "Harmony" of the Magic of Faerun (Pag. 100)...

replaced with inspirational boost according to the spell compedium. It was renamed that and the two spells are now one.
#61

eRaz0r

Oct 30, 2007 13:41:31
If you want a summoner bard, perhaps a Fochlucan (sp?) lyricist might work.
#62

hyfigh

Oct 30, 2007 14:46:51
Are there any bard/x class feats that work akin to Daring Outlaw to allow Inspire Courage growth to stack with another class for, perhaps, more class features?
#63

quickenedwish

Oct 30, 2007 16:00:50
Are there any bard/x class feats that work akin to Daring Outlaw to allow Inspire Courage growth to stack with another class for, perhaps, more class features?

There is initiate of Milil allows Paladin levels to stack with bard, but only concerning which kinds of music one can play, not their bonus. As far as I know, there is no feat that allows Inspire Courage stacking with other classes. Many bardic prestige classes stack with bard when determining the bonus to Inspire Courage. Here is a list of the ones I like that stack:

Fochlucan Lyrist
Spellsinger
Virtuoso

Out of these I like using Viruoso. 10 levels, minimal entry requirements, and only one caster level loss, which is not all that bad if you plan to take Sublime Chord levels afterwards.

Spellsinger is great, and if it weren't for that utterly useless counterspelling feat requirement, it would beat out the Virtuoso in my book. Note that although it does have a racial stipulation of 1/8 elven blood, this is just fluff, as it notes that a human (with a hint of elven heritage, but not enough to warrant half-elf status) has become a spellsinger before.
#64

crimsondeath

Oct 30, 2007 16:07:02
Are there any bard/x class feats that work akin to Daring Outlaw to allow Inspire Courage growth to stack with another class for, perhaps, more class features?

Bard/Crusader or Bard/Warblade with Song of the White Raven. That feat also allows you to start a Bardic Music effect as a Swift action while you're in a White Raven stance.

Also, the War Chanter prestiege class stacks with Bard levels for the purpose of Inspire Courage bonus and bardic music uses per day.
#65

quickenedwish

Oct 30, 2007 16:23:23
Could a Bard use both regular Inspire Courage and the Dragonfire Inspiration? I'm looking for a reason why not... and can't find one. Maybe Lingering Song to combine the two?

I was thinking along these lines as well, and even put a post up in the simple question/simple answers thread. I think the consensus was that, as a bard can choose to apply the effects of Dragonfire Inspiration, he could perform two aspects of Inspire Courage, one with and one without, and that the effects stack, since they are of different effects. One is a morale effect, one is elemental damage.

I thought of lingering song, and also Combine Songs from the Seeker of the Song PrC, but there are problems with both of these. Lingering song only allows you to sing one new song per turn, and it would be best if both aspects of Inspire Courage could come into play the first round of combat. The latter option gets around this, but if you are a serious caster bard, you don't want any part of Seeker of the Song.

There are two ways I can see to deal with this. You could cast the Harmonize spell from Races of Stone and somehow get it extended whenever you enter a dungeon. That way, you can start one bardic music as a standard, and one as a move action. The feat Lingering Song then makes them continue for a full minute.

The cleaner solution is the feat "Focused Performance" from Dragon 338 that allows you to start and maintain 2 bardic musics simultaneously. You could drop Lingering Song, pick up Melodic Casting, and go from there as good as gold. If your DM allows a harmonizing weapon to pick up both songs, then you don't even need Melodic Casting. Only problem is that its Dragon, which may or may not be allowed.

QW

Input?
#66

operation_shoestring

Oct 30, 2007 19:53:28
IIRC, There are classes with abilities similar to Inspire courage which stack with it. Dread Pirate is one, i think.
#67

hyfigh

Oct 31, 2007 7:59:33
The cleaner solution is the feat "Focused Performer" from Dragon 338 that allows you to start and maintain 2 bardic musics simultaneously. You could drop Lingering Song, pick up Melodic Casting, and go from there as good as gold. If your DM allows a harmonizing weapon to pick up both songs, then you don't even need Melodic Casting. Only problem is that its Dragon, which may or may not be allowed.

QW

Input?

Wait, Focused Performer allows you to use two bardic music abilities at the same time? I don't have Dragon so I can only go by the Crystal Keep descrption, but that only reflects being able to maintain a spell while using bardic music. Can you please clarify?
#68

quickenedwish

Oct 31, 2007 9:00:48
The text of Focused Performance under the name "Accompaniment" states that one can spend 3 uses of bardic music to "perform two Bardic Music abilities simultaneously." One can maintain them by making a performance check. The feat is discussed in more detail here"

http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-180178.html
#69

hyfigh

Oct 31, 2007 9:12:16
I see. Performer does not but the performance does.
#70

quickenedwish

Oct 31, 2007 10:18:29
My mistake, I will correct that in my earlier post.

It's too bad the ability listed under Focused Performance that doubles the area of effect of certain Bardic Music dosn't apply to Virtuoso music. It would have been nice to use that with Jarring Song. I know Spellsinger has an ability called Amplification or somthing like that which increases the range of bardic music. Also there is the Aplenhorn. I dislike either option. Are there any other ways to increase the effective distance of bardic music, specifically in the case of Jarring Song, which the text states has a effective radius of 30 feet?

QW
#71

qoshea

Nov 02, 2007 19:12:55
Here is a list of the ones I like that stack:

Fochlucan Lyrist
Spellsinger
Virtuoso

Out of these I like using Viruoso. 10 levels, minimal entry requirements, and only one caster level loss, which is not all that bad if you plan to take Sublime Chord levels afterwards.

How do you get into Virtuoso in time for it to do any good? Bards don't get Intimidate and that is one of the requirements for the prestige class.

I love it when the examples don't even follow the rules. LOL
#72

archerpwr

Nov 02, 2007 19:19:56
How do you get into Virtuoso in time for it to do any good? Bards don't get Intimidate and that is one of the requirements for the prestige class.

I love it when the examples don't even follow the rules. LOL

cross class ranks?
#73

killgreedy_dup

Nov 03, 2007 12:04:14
Dragonfire Insp. mentions that if the source of your dragon-ness (feat or parentage) isn't associated with an energy type than you get no benefit from the feat. Does this mean that Spellscale wouldn't be able to use it? It would basically require Half-Dragon or Draconic Heritage (which in turn reqs Sorcerer).
#74

arismir

Nov 03, 2007 13:55:59
If you want a summoner bard, perhaps a Fochlucan (sp?) lyricist might work.

I put a lot of thought into this before. Really one of the most practical builds I could come up with was: Bard1/Rogue2/Druid7/Fochlucan Lyrist10. With this build you still get 9th level spells, but your bardic music is rather weak with inspire courage only at +2. Of course this could be increased as mentioned in this thread to quite possibly get it up to +5 or so. Furthermore, music of growth doesn't stack with augment summoning, and would realistically only save you one feat slot, assuming you do not want to get imbued summoning. In my opinion, imbued summoning paired with bard buffs, outweighs music of growth. So I guess instead of rambling, I'll just post my build idea:

NG Human Bard1/Rogue2/Druid7/Fochlucan Lyrist10
1: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning
3: Extend Spell
6: Rapid Spell
9: Imbued Summoning
12: Melodic Casting
15: Song of the Heart
18: Lingering Song

Items: Vest of Legends, Badge of Valor, Ring of Beasts

With this build, you'd be able to achieve an inspire courage +5 with the use of inspirational boost. Imbued summoning paired with effects such as Haste, Blink, and Invisibility would present some interesting summons. And ring of beasts helps keep your summons at the proper level. Overall, it's much weaker than a Druid20, but it would allow for a creative summoner with a lot more flavor.
#75

quickenedwish

Nov 03, 2007 14:25:36
Dragonfire Insp. mentions that if the source of your dragon-ness (feat or parentage) isn't associated with an energy type than you get no benefit from the feat. Does this mean that Spellscale wouldn't be able to use it? It would basically require Half-Dragon or Draconic Heritage (which in turn reqs Sorcerer).

I have been mulling this over for a few days, and here is what I have come up with.

Dragonfire Inspiration requires the dragonblood subtype, and usually gives bonus fire damage. So the question is, how do I get another type of bonus energy damage that doesn't suck, and how do I cut my losses?

The half-dragon template is a quick fix, but then again, there is the +3 LA to worry about. Without LA buyoff, it should not even be considered, with LA buyoff, you are still giving up quite a bit. By level 10 you would still be two levels behind everyone else.

Another option is to take a level of sorcerer and the two feats Draconic Heritage and X Dragon Lineage. Not only is sorcerer 1 a waste of a level, so are those two feats.

The best option I can see involves this. Be a silverbrow human. All this does is give you the dragonblood subtype while allowing you to keep your human bonus feat. You do lose a few skill points, but that is manageable. Then you take a level of dragon shaman, choosing the Battle Dragon as your totem. There you have satisfied the dragonblood subtype requirement, and can take advantage of the special rule that lets effects based on draconic heritage be taken from your totem dragon. Rules for choosing a true dragon heritage that is not a standard MM choice can be found in Races of the Dragon, I believe this would also extend to a Dragon Shaman's totem dragon, and, if not, then at least allows the choice of acid or electricity energy damage.

Thats the best I got. You lose one level, but a 1 level dip of Dragon Shaman isn't that bad actually.

Critique? Other options?
#76

archerpwr

Nov 03, 2007 14:30:29
I have been mulling this over for a few days, and here is what I have come up with.

Dragonfire Inspiration requires the dragonblood subtype, and usually gives bonus fire damage. So the question is, how do I get another type of bonus energy damage that doesn't suck, and how do I cut my losses?

The half-dragon template is a quick fix, but then again, there is the +3 LA to worry about. Without LA buyoff, it should not even be considered, with LA buyoff, you are still giving up quite a bit. By level 10 you would still be two levels behind everyone else.

Another option is to take a level of sorcerer and the two feats Draconic Heritage and X Dragon Lineage. Not only is sorcerer 1 a waste of a level, so are those two feats.

The best option I can see involves this. Be a silverbrow human. All this does is give you the dragonblood subtype while allowing you to keep your human bonus feat. You do lose a few skill points, but that is manageable. Then you take a level of dragon shaman, choosing the Battle Dragon as your totem. There you have satisfied the dragonblood subtype requirement, and can take advantage of the special rule that lets effects based on draconic heritage be taken from your totem dragon. Rules for choosing a true dragon heritage that is not a standard MM choice can be found in Races of the Dragon, I believe this would also extend to a Dragon Shaman's totem dragon.

Thats the best I got. You lose one level, but a 1 level dip of Dragon Shaman isn't that bad actually.

Critique? Other options?

Vigor aura... good dip.
#77

quickenedwish

Nov 03, 2007 14:49:20
Here are a few build stubs that go along the Dragonfire Inspiration line:

Bard 6/Dragon Shaman 1/Marshall 1/Virtuoso 2/SC 2/Virtuoso +8

Bard 8/Dragon Shaman 1/Virtuoso 1/SC 2/Virtuoso +8

Bard 5/Spellsinger 3/Dragon Shaman 1/Virtuoso 1/SC 2/Spellsinger +2/Virtuoso +6

SC = Sublime Chord

Marshall is useful dip, especially if you like to use Diplomacy, Bluff, and UMD. All the builds here maintain at least 8 IC levels by level 10, giving a +2 Inspire Courage. The last one I haven't really worked out as much, but I really like the Spellsinger's capstone ability Amplification mixed with the Virtuoso's Jarring Song.

A Dragon Shaman dip gives 3 draconic auras. I would choose Vigor (for decent OOC healing), Senses (for +1 initiative, when expecting combat), and Presence (+1 diplomacy and bluff, when in a social setting).

QW
#78

zeratulcraft

Nov 04, 2007 1:09:29
Are there any bard/x class feats that work akin to Daring Outlaw to allow Inspire Courage growth to stack with another class for, perhaps, more class features?

Devoted Performer allows Bard/Paladins. Comp Adventurer.
#79

tensaiga

Nov 04, 2007 2:45:00
Man, I was about to suggest something that would have been amazing and sort of cheesy, involving the Mythic Exemplar, but turns out I read it wrong. Hate when that happens. Why am I posting this? So the universe doesn't forget the hour or so I spent reading, planning, and plotting! That's why.

Carry on
#80

crimsondeath

Nov 04, 2007 3:38:26
Devoted Performer allows Bard/Paladins. Comp Adventurer.

That only let's Paladin levels stack with Bard for the purpose of bardic music uses per day. Paladin levels won't improve the Inspire Courage bonus.
#81

lietx

Nov 04, 2007 8:02:27
That only let's Paladin levels stack with Bard for the purpose of bardic music uses per day. Paladin levels won't improve the Inspire Courage bonus.

I think the OP means Devoted Performer permits a LG Bard since they normally have to be partially neutral to have any Bard abilities.

Devoted Performer combined with Initiate of Milil (Champions of Valor, p31) will allow a Forgotten Realms Paladin/Bard to get all the types of Bardic Music for their character level but I don't see that it allows them to improve the bonuses of any of their music. If I were GM, however, I'd say being able to use "Inspire Greatness" would imply that improvements in Inspire Courage are permitted but that's not explicitly stated.
#82

crimsondeath

Nov 04, 2007 12:03:17
I think the OP means Devoted Performer permits a LG Bard since they normally have to be partially neutral to have any Bard abilities.

Perhaps, but that's not the question it looked like he was answering.
#83

phaedrusxy

Nov 04, 2007 12:03:32
I think the OP means Devoted Performer permits a LG Bard since they normally have to be partially neutral to have any Bard abilities.

They just have to be non-lawful. Druids are the ones that have to be partially neutral.

[rant]Which is pretty stupid IMO... What does the philosophy of a lawful neutral druid have to do with that of a neutral evil druid, or a chaotic neutral druid? Nothing.[/rant]
#84

stardock

Nov 06, 2007 20:41:51
I have been mulling this over for a few days, and here is what I have come up with.

Dragonfire Inspiration requires the dragonblood subtype, and usually gives bonus fire damage. So the question is, how do I get another type of bonus energy damage that doesn't suck, and how do I cut my losses?

The half-dragon template is a quick fix, but then again, there is the +3 LA to worry about. Without LA buyoff, it should not even be considered, with LA buyoff, you are still giving up quite a bit. By level 10 you would still be two levels behind everyone else.

Another option is to take a level of sorcerer and the two feats Draconic Heritage and X Dragon Lineage. Not only is sorcerer 1 a waste of a level, so are those two feats.

The best option I can see involves this. Be a silverbrow human. All this does is give you the dragonblood subtype while allowing you to keep your human bonus feat. You do lose a few skill points, but that is manageable. Then you take a level of dragon shaman, choosing the Battle Dragon as your totem. There you have satisfied the dragonblood subtype requirement, and can take advantage of the special rule that lets effects based on draconic heritage be taken from your totem dragon. Rules for choosing a true dragon heritage that is not a standard MM choice can be found in Races of the Dragon, I believe this would also extend to a Dragon Shaman's totem dragon, and, if not, then at least allows the choice of acid or electricity energy damage.

Thats the best I got. You lose one level, but a 1 level dip of Dragon Shaman isn't that bad actually.

Critique? Other options?

I'm wondering if instead a one level dip into sorcerer with the variants Battle Sorcerer and Stalwart Sorcerer might be better. You can take the substitution level from Races of the dragon in exchange for your familiar, and you get the following:

Pros:
Draconic Heritage(Whatever) as a bonus feat - For sonic damage Battle dragon looks pretty cool, and gives perform as a class skill.

Weapon Focus as a bonus feat

Martial Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat

d8 + 2hp from stalwart = 10 hp at first level before con modifiers

Intimidate as a class skill (If you're going into Virtuoso, this refunds 4 skill points)

a level 1 sorcerer's spell you can cast twice per day :P

Note that if you're a Dragonborn character you can choose platinum dragon as your heritage which has "Any" as it's energy type, so you could switch to whatever energy type you wanted.
#85

quickenedwish

Nov 06, 2007 22:35:26
I'm wondering if instead a one level dip into sorcerer with the variants Battle Sorcerer and Stalwart Sorcerer might be better. You can take the substitution level from Races of the dragon in exchange for your familiar, and you get the following:

Pros:
Draconic Heritage(Whatever) as a bonus feat - For sonic damage Battle dragon looks pretty cool, and gives perform as a class skill.

Weapon Focus as a bonus feat

Martial Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat

d8 + 2hp from stalwart = 10 hp at first level before con modifiers

Intimidate as a class skill (If you're going into Virtuoso, this refunds 4 skill points)

a level 1 sorcerer's spell you can cast twice per day :P

Cons:
Have to take sorcerer at level 1...you lose 16 skill points.

Note that if you're a Dragonborn character you can choose platinum dragon as your heritage which has "Any" as it's energy type, so you could switch to whatever energy type you wanted.

Very interesting. Could you cite the page number detailing how a Dragonborn character could take platinum dragon heritage?
#86

stardock

Nov 06, 2007 22:39:47
Very interesting. Could you cite the page number detailing how a Dragonborn character could take platinum dragon heritage?

It's on page 103, platinum is marked with an asterisk and it says that only a dragonborn character can take this heritage at the bottom of the table.
#87

zeratulcraft

Nov 07, 2007 9:00:21
Perhaps, but that's not the question it looked like he was answering.

Probably not, I'd not read the feat recently, just remembered its name/location because I posted a thread asking if such a thing existed a while back.
#88

stardock

Nov 07, 2007 22:17:51
Very interesting. Could you cite the page number detailing how a Dragonborn character could take platinum dragon heritage?

Now that I think about it, there may be a few snags with just 'taking' the feat at first level. Technically since Dragonborn characters aren't born (instead becoming one is a decision a character has to make) your DM might insist that you not be able to be one at character creation, or even if he does let you become one at first level he might not let you take draconic heritage(platinum) because you weren't initially a Dragonborn and thus didn't meet the prerequisite for that draconic heritage. There are a few ways around this that I see:

-You can try to argue the point of the 'special' case of page 10 of RoD that says that you can swap out one of your feats for a feat that requires the dragonblood subtype at first level. By RAW I don't think this works because Draconic Heritage doesn't require the dragonblood subtype. However, I do think that this was probably one of the feats they had in mind when they wrote this special case.

-You can undergo the Rite of Dragon Affinity(on page 59), this rite requires that a dragon of the type that you wish to become perform a ceremony and use his breath weapon on you as the final act to switch to his type. However this presents problems of it's own, namely how do you convince Bahamut to perform the ceremony, and even if you do convince him, chances are you won't live through the breath attack. There MAY be a way around this though, you might be able to convince an Aspect of Bahamut(on page 152) to perform the rite for you, their attack only deals 12d6, so with some cold resistance you might be able to live through that. Note that cold immunity does NOT work, you have to take damage from the attack.

Surely at least one of these should work, otherwise I don't know why they would even say that dragonborn characters could take that heritage.
#89

phoenix00

Nov 07, 2007 22:26:34
you know you can take draconic heritage after 1st lvl right? It requires 1st lvl of Sorcerer, but it doesn't require it being a 1st lvl feat. Your blood flavorwise was always there it just didn't activate until later. Read the description it nowhere says it has to be a 1st lvl only feat.
#90

stardock

Nov 07, 2007 22:33:14
you know you can take draconic heritage after 1st lvl right? It requires 1st lvl of Sorcerer, but it doesn't require it being a 1st lvl feat. Your blood flavorwise was always there it just didn't activate until later. Read the description it nowhere says it has to be a 1st lvl only feat.

I have never even considered that, lol.

I was reading Sorcerer Level 1st as only being able to take it as a sorcerer AT first level.

Well then...I guess take away the only con I had on my list above :P Just take sorcerer as your second level and get your 16 skill points back. Also, you can become Dragonborn first if you want to take Draconic Heritage(Platinum).
#91

quickenedwish

Nov 08, 2007 21:23:02
Here is a build that utilizes the Dragonblood Sorcerer Substitution Level in synergy with Dragonfire Inspiration. I have attempted to get these results through Dragon Shaman and other methods, but this method utilizing the Sorcerer Sub Level is the most straightforward path I can see aside from the cumbrous Half-Dragon Template.

I will be using the Battle Sorcerer variant from UA, the Stalwart Sorcerer variant from Complete Mage, and the Focused Performer/Performance feats from Dragon 338. I find that Focused Performance is the most elegant solution to the problem of starting and maintaining two bardic effects at once, as well as being reasonably balanced in my opinion. Of course, other methods are available, for example the Harmonize spell from Races of Stone, if Dragon material is not your thing.

Silverbrow Human

Bard 1/Sorcerer 1 (Dragonblood Sub Level)/Bard +7/Virtuoso 1/SC 2/Virtuoso +8

1. Focused Performer, Lingering Song
2. Draconic Heritage (Battle Dragon) RotD, 103
3. Dragon Fire Inspiration
6. Words of Creation
9. Focused Performer
12. Song of the Heart
15. Doomspeak
18 OPEN

Inspire Courage bonus by level, using Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor (MIC), Words of Creation, Vest of Legends (DMGII), and Song of the Heart. The items listed are incorporated at the earliest wealth by level, and the spell Inspirational Boost at the earliest you can cast.

1. +1
2. +1
4. +3 (Badge of Valor, Inspirational Boost)
9. +6 (Words of Creation, +1 IC, IC as bard 8)
11. +8 (Vest of Legends, IC as bard 14)
12. +9 (Song of the Heart)
18. +11 (+1 IC, IC as bard 20)

I prefer not to use a masterwork instrument, as that would hinder my spellcasting, but if you are not inclined to that route, then be my guest. The masterwork drum, at (+0 atk./+1 dmg.), seems to be the most popular choice.

This build is a decent buffer at the lower levels, with 8th level bard casting at level 10, as well as a high inspire courage augmented by Dragonfire Inspiration. Note that the energy damage granted is sonic, as per Battle Dragon Lineage. In the later levels there is a full Sublime Chord spellcasting progression.

I would like to have Focused Performer placed earlier in the progression, and once could conceivably swap it with Words of Creation. At that level, however, one would only be able to get a double song going once per day, and twice per day at level 8. Also, your IC bonus would only be +3 from levels 4-8. This is a personal choice. I like having to spend only 1 round to get my music going so I can concentrate on spellcasting, but it's not worth it to me till level 9 or so.

You could, instead of Silverbrow Human, choose to be a Dragonborn of Bahamut. A base race of Star Elf would work good here. This opens up Platinum Dragon Lineage, allowing you to choose the energy type of your Dragonfire Inspiration at will. While this is certainly useful, you would be one feat behind the base build. In my opinion, sonic damage is pretty reliable, and losing a feat solely to allow a different flavor is not my cup of tea. The option is always there though.

Credit should be given to Stardock for the idea of using the Sorcerer Sub Level in conjunction with Dragonfire Inspiration.

Anyway, hope you enjoy.
#92

archerpwr

Nov 09, 2007 15:46:46
Build.

Very nice! One thing:
I'd delay virtuoso one level due to how sublime chord calculates caster level.
#93

carnivore

Nov 09, 2007 15:50:08
for the link

:D
#94

quickenedwish

Nov 09, 2007 16:42:58
Very nice! One thing:
I'd delay virtuoso one level due to how sublime chord calculates caster level.

So very true, done and done. Thanks.
#95

quickenedwish

Nov 10, 2007 13:58:14
I have just become aware of the Dragontouched feat. I'm wondering if it's worth it to play a Dragontouched Human and swap out that odd level of sorcerer. That's two extra feats, if you include having to take Draconic Heritage, in an already feat tight build. Hmmm...
#96

stardock

Nov 10, 2007 16:58:04
One thing that I just realized, if dragonborn can indeed change the energy type of dragonfire inspiration at will, and we've already established that dragonfire and regular inspiration stack since they're different bonuses, it seems like a dragonborn bard could do something like this:

Round 1:
a)Knowledge Check to determine Monster's vulnerabilites and immunities
b)Dragonfire Inspiration(Vuln type)
Round 2:
b)Dragonfire Inspiration(Sonic)

Now a level 3 bard (with the inspiration spell) could add +2d6(sonic) +2d6(vuln) to every attack roll. So you just added on average around 18 damage per attack at level 3...all the two-weapon fighting characters and rapid shot characters in the party now love your bard. If your party will have trouble hitting, either substitute the sonic damage for regular inspire courage or add it in round 3.

And that doesn't even count the people who have song of the heart at level 3, or those who have extra music who can add every damage type to an attack...

Of course, this chugs through music uses, so you probably want to just use this on 'boss' fights. Just use round 1 on regular encounters, and if they don't have a vulnerability just use sonic.
#97

stardock

Nov 10, 2007 18:02:13
Also, while I'm thinking about it here's another great feat from Dragon 326:

Prereqs: chaotic alignment, perform 4 ranks, bardic music ability

Chaos Music - Your effective bard level increases by four concerning your bardic music abilities, but cannot exceed your hit dice. It also gives you a chaotic aura with power equal to your character level.

This feat would allow you to basically ignore the dead sorcerer level AND the two dead sublime chord levels in regard to your inspire courage boost. Of course, good luck fitting it into the build since it's already so feat intensive...
#98

archerpwr

Nov 10, 2007 18:13:07
Also, while I'm thinking about it here's another great feat from Dragon 326:

Prereqs: chaotic alignment, perform 4 ranks, bardic music ability

Chaos Music - Your effective bard level increases by four concerning your bardic music abilities, but cannot exceed your hit dice. It also gives you a chaotic aura with power equal to your character level.

This feat would allow you to basically ignore the dead sorcerer level AND the two dead sublime chord levels in regard to your inspire courage boost. Of course, good luck fitting it into the build since it's already so feat intensive...

Nice find! Practiced musician.
#99

quickenedwish

Nov 10, 2007 18:29:15
Yes, the Platinum Dragon heritage version is quite a compelling choice, especially when you can hit a creatures vulnerabilities.

However, consider the spell "Creaking Cacophony" from the Spell Compendium. It makes all creatures who are not immune to sonic damage vulnerable to sonic damage. Even if they are resistant to sonic, they are now vulnerable. And really, who has sonic immunity?

Also, lets talk about this feat, which works a bit like Practiced Spellcaster. A level 20 character would have a base IC of a level 20 bard. Wearing a Vest of Legends, and playing a masterwork lute, you would have a base IC of a level 26 bard. Just enough to get you to +5 base IC. Multiply that by 2 for Words of Creation, add in the +3 from Song of the Heart, Badge of Valor, and Inspirational Boost, and your IC is a +13, a legal +13. With Dragonfire Inspiration, tweaked for sonic damage, thats 13d6 sonic. Throw in a Creaking Cacophony spell and thats another +50% damage. Thats an average of 68 extra sonic damage per attack. Thats pretty good, considering that this affects your entire party. Even if you don't have a melee oriented party, with, say, only one melee specialist, you can use "Individual Performance" from the Focused Performance feat. Normally this doubles the IC effect, but as we are already using Words of Creation, would triple the base IC. This makes for a +18 hit/damage, and an extra 94 sonic damage per hit. A TWF melee'er would love you even more. Too bad you cannot use this on yourself. A Thri-kreen mutliweapon fighter would rock with this, literally.

Of course, with a balanced party, one would not choose Individual Performance, but still, to be able to do this in addition to other bardly goodness is cool. In fact the Chaos Music feat would allow you to take a level of marshall without worry as well, for a bit of out of combat diplomacy specialization.
#100

archerpwr

Nov 10, 2007 18:55:10
Of course, with a balanced party, one would not choose Individual Performance, but still, to be able to do this in addition to other bardly goodness is cool. In fact the Chaos Music feat would allow you to take a level of marshall without worry as well, for a bit of out of combat diplomacy specialization.

Polymorph. Hydra. Tasty on anybody.
#101

saxis

Nov 27, 2007 14:24:17
Just thinking out loud here about an Inspiring Summoner...

I'm feeling this is still pretty unoptimized.

I'm looking at Bard 2/Archivist 6/Divine Oracle 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

This takes a couple tricks: Bardic Tutelage to learn Druidic and Divine Oracle's ability to qualify for Evasion.

Be Spellscale if that is enough to qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration - I don't care if it is fire damage, even though sonic would rule!

Feats: Spell Focus (conjur), Augment Summoning, Extend Spell, Words of Creation, Chaos Music, Lingering Song, OPEN

It takes a bit of prep, but maybe something like this: Rd 1 - Summon Nature's Ally Rd 2 - Quickened (Rod) Animal Growth, Haste, Dark Knowledge (tactics) Rd 3 - Inspiration Boost, Inspire Courage and send in the troops!

I'm gonna lay these out as +X/+X, for +Attack/+Damage, respectively.

You're giving your summons: Augment +2/+2, Animal Growth +3/+4, Haste +1/+0, Dark Knowledge +3/+0, Inspirational Boost +1/+1, Inspire Courage +8/+8, Badge of Valor +1/+1 = +19 Attack/+15 Damage + 10d6 Dragonfire for each attack.

I'm sure it can be improved somewhere!

Edit: I completely left out Eberron Material on purpose. My group doesn't use it.
#102

quickenedwish

Nov 27, 2007 16:06:30
I don't know if Spellscale is the best choice for this. Most of your casting will be Archivist, so the charisma boost would be somewhat wasted. I would use Silverbrow Human if you are going the Dragonfire Inspiration route. You gain the Dragonblood subtype, and get to keep your human bonus feat.
#103

tsuyoshikentsu

Nov 28, 2007 2:32:31
Just so you know, my read on the Platinum thing is that you pick it at the time you take DH and it stays that way. While I don't claim that that's necessarily correct, some DMs may see it that way too.

My build is a little different than most of the ones presented here, because I happen to like Crusader a lot. Also, divine bards are pretty much strictly better because they don't get ASF. You also take Song of the Heart as a bonus feat instead of Inspire Competence. (AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO MEET THE PREREQUISITES; IT'S A BONUS FEAT.)

So Human Bard 1/Sorcerer 1/Crusader 1/Bard +2/Crusader +15. Feats go thusly:

1: Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration
2: Draconic Heritage (Battle)
3: Song of the White Raven
5: Song of the Heart
6: Words of Creation
9: Two-Weapon Fighting
12: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18: Free

If you can get away with being Silverbrow and doing the Rite of Draconic Affinity, do it -- then drop the Sorc level and Dragontouched altogether. That'll let you move up all the TWF feats, or let you take Doomspeak at 9.

You use the Badge of Valor, plus some kind of interesting gear. First you've got your harmonizing songblade with wand chamber -- it'll run you 10,060 GP, but that's not too bad for what it gives you. You use it in your right hand, for the sake of argument. Then you've got probably the weirdest contraption on the face of the planet -- a Battle Rattle (DR 331 pg 88) with an instrument blade attached. I happen to know what they're trying to describe by virtue of being Jewish -- it's called a gragger, and you could definitely stick a knife on the bottom end of that sucker. Anyway, you store that in the wand bracelet on your left wrist. You've also got a wand of creaking cacophony in there.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the makers of DuctTapeMod for inspiring most of this build's equipment.

Now, here's what you do with your load of weird stuff. It is VERY IMPORTANT that you do this in the right order.

Round One

Swift: Call Wand of Crackling Cacophony (If it's not out)
Standard: Activate Wand of Crackling Cacophony
Move: Switch Rod of Crackling Cacophony for Battle Rattle


Round Two

Standard: Activate Wand of Inspirational Boost
Swift: Activate Inspire Courage w/ Celestial Choir
Immediate: Activate Badge of Valor


Round Three:
Let your sword take over, begin to kill things

Another, easier way to do this is to use a casting glove, but those are fairly expensive.
#104

quickenedwish

Dec 09, 2007 13:35:35
Build

I like it, a lot. I have a few questions though. You take two levels of Sorceror, why is that? The Dragontouched feat allows you to take Draconic Lineage feats as if you were a Sorceror of your character level. Just drop those like a bad habit. Silverbrow is nice, but Dragontouched gives you the same benefits, as well as letting you take Sorc specific feats.

You build stub has 19 levels. If you drop both the Sorc levels, and I would presume the other would go to Crusader as well, that would gets you 18 levels in Crusader, and a final IL of 19. Not too shabby.

Why do you use a Battle Rattle? Is there some bonus/benefit I'm missing out on? I have no idea what it does, or how it would be better than a Masterwork lute, Combined with a Vest of Legends. Could you explain?

QW

Edit:

Also, if you use the Melodic Casting feat, would you not be able to use the wand, as well as your bardic music ability, at the same time, so you only spend 1 round buffing instead of 2? There must be some way to make it work...

Also, could you explain to me how you get Song of the Heart as a bonus feat? Instead of inspire Courage? Wouldn't giving up Inspire Courage preclude a significant portion of your power, or are you regaining it somewhere else down the road?

Also (sorry), though this may not exactly pertain to your build in particular, as it would be a more appealing option for a Warblade, have you considered entering Jade Phoenix Mage (without using the Divine Bard variant), or Ruby Knight Vindicator? Jade Phoenix Mage is useful, as it allows you to continue your spellcasting a bit, while still fully advancing IL.

Ruby Knight Vindicator, if you can somehow get the prerequisite turning ability without too much trouble, would eventually allow an extra swift action or two in a turn. This is especially potent when combined with Song of the White Raven, which allows you to start bardic music as a swift action.

I haven't figured out the exact details, and I would need someone to look over if any of this is legal at all, but this may allow you to lower your buffing routine time, as well as allowing you to let loose both Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration in one round. I'll look into it. I will say that activating a wand of Inspirational Boost is a swift action, as per the ruling in the Rules Compendium regarding Spell Trigger items.
#105

tsuyoshikentsu

Dec 09, 2007 16:53:05
I like it, a lot. I have a few questions though. You take two levels of Sorceror, why is that? The Dragontouched feat allows you to take Draconic Lineage feats as if you were a Sorceror of your character level. Just drop those like a bad habit. Silverbrow is nice, but Dragontouched gives you the same benefits, as well as letting you take Sorc specific feats.

I did it to get Words of Creation at 6. Crusader doesn't have a good Will save. Like I said, the second level is to avoid EXP penalties, but if you ignore them then just take one level.

You build stub has 19 levels. If you drop both the Sorc levels, and I would presume the other would go to Crusader as well, that would gets you 18 levels in Crusader, and a final IL of 19. Not too shabby.

That should actually be another level of Bard for Inspire Competence/Song of the Heart. (See below.)

Why do you use a Battle Rattle? Is there some bonus/benefit I'm missing out on? I have no idea what it does, or how it would be better than a Masterwork lute, Combined with a Vest of Legends. Could you explain?

It's an instrument that you can use one-handed, gives +1 to Inspire Courage, and can have an instrument blade on it. Masterwork lute doesn't work because you need two hands for the wands and things.

Also, if you use the Melodic Casting feat, would you not be able to use the wand, as well as your bardic music ability, at the same time, so you only spend 1 round buffing instead of 2? There must be some way to make it work...

It doesn't matter, because you need to cast inspirational boost in the same round and before you use bardic music. Since that's your swift action, you're done.

Also, could you explain to me how you get Song of the Heart as a bonus feat? Instead of inspire Courage? Wouldn't giving up Inspire Courage preclude a significant portion of your power, or are you regaining it somewhere else down the road?

That was a typo. You trade it for Inspire Competence at level 3, per the Bard section in the Eberron CS.

Also (sorry), though this may not exactly pertain to your build in particular, as it would be a more appealing option for a Warblade, have you considered entering Jade Phoenix Mage (without using the Divine Bard variant), or Ruby Knight Vindicator? Jade Phoenix Mage is useful, as it allows you to continue your spellcasting a bit, while still fully advancing IL.

...But not advancing Inspire Courage. Same deal with RKV.
#106

quickenedwish

Dec 09, 2007 17:17:52
If you are using Sorcerer solely to meet the prereq Will save, why not trade them for something more useful, like 2 levels of Swordsage?
#107

crimsondeath

Dec 09, 2007 18:03:42
That was a typo. You trade it for Inspire Competence at level 3, per the Bard section in the Eberron CS.

Doesn't Song of the Heart require Inspire Competence? I don't remember seeing that substituting Bardic music effects like that bypassed feat prerequisites.
#108

quickenedwish

Dec 09, 2007 22:00:31
I would like to post a build stub/routine that I think works well. Before I do, however, I would like to verify my interpretation of the Melodic Casting feat.

Ahem, the feat (Complete Mage, page 44), states that you can cast spells while using a bardic music ability.

Lets say that you used your Inspire Courage ability, using your voice, leaving your hands free, taking a standard action.

With this feat, could you cast a standard action spell as you used your bardic music ability? To make it easier, just assume the spell had no vocal component.

Thanks
#109

tsuyoshikentsu

Dec 09, 2007 22:48:37
Doesn't Song of the Heart require Inspire Competence? I don't remember seeing that substituting Bardic music effects like that bypassed feat prerequisites.

By default, bonus feats don't require you to meet prerequisites.
#110

crimsondeath

Dec 10, 2007 0:41:09
By default, bonus feats don't require you to meet prerequisites.

I know that's true of racial bonus feats, but don't classes generally specify one way or the other? (For example, Fighters have to meet the prerequisites for their bonus feats, but Monks don't.)

Incidentally, I heard a story about a Human Rogue who used that ruling to select Gape of the Serpent as a Rogue special ability at level 10. (The Rogue can select a "bonus feat", after all.)
#111

grundle

Dec 10, 2007 1:04:58
I would like to post a build stub/routine that I think works well. Before I do, however, I would like to verify my interpretation of the Melodic Casting feat.

Ahem, the feat (Complete Mage, page 44), states that you can cast spells while using a bardic music ability.

Lets say that you used your Inspire Courage ability, using your voice, leaving your hands free, taking a standard action.

With this feat, could you cast a standard action spell as you used your bardic music ability? To make it easier, just assume the spell had no vocal component.

Thanks

why not just use the harmonizing weapon ability?
#112

quickenedwish

Dec 10, 2007 1:30:31
why not just use the harmonizing weapon ability?

I'm not talking about casting a spell while maintaining a bardic music effect, I am talking about casting a spell while I initiate a bardic music effect. To initiate Inspire Courage takes a standard action, usually, as does the concentration required to maintain the ability.

The feat says that whenever I "use" a bardic music ability, I can cast a spell using the same action. The definition of "use", in my opinion, can define both to when you are starting the bardic music, and to when you are maintaining it. This is my opinion, and the feat seems pretty clear, I just wanted a second opinion.

After I get some sort of confirmation, I will post a build stub.
#113

quickenedwish

Dec 10, 2007 2:02:40
Okay, here goes: I've been meaning to cook up something like this ever since I became interested in Dragonfire Inspiration.

I love the recent ToB melee bard builds popping up, both tsuyoshikentsu's and JanusJones are pretty solid.

I, however, have been more of a spellcaster type. Here is a build that includes just a touch of ToB, just enough to get what I need done.

Bard 8/Virtuoso 1/Warblade 1/SC 2/Virtuoso +8

I'll eventually give a feat listing, but for now, a general description will have to do.

The alternative bard option detailed in the ECS has been used to replace Suggestion with Song of the Heart.

Dragontouched, as well as Draconic Lineage (Battle Dragon), has been taken.

White Raven Song has been taken, not only to keep a full IC progression, but to allow a swift action IC as well.

The Somatic Weapon feat, which allows me to cast spells with a lute in my hand, as well as Melodic Casting, which allows me to cast spells during my bardic music sessions, have both been taken.

You can assume that all the requisite IC boosting effects have been taken.

What does this boil down to, why does this particular combination matter?

First Round: (While holding Masterwork Lute)

Swift Action: Initiate Inspire Courage (as per White Raven Song), cast Inspirational Boost (as per Melodic Casting, made possible with lute in hand by Somatic Weapon).

Standard Action: Initiate Draconic Inspiration, cast Creaking Cacophony.

Immediate Action: Use Badge of Valor

The point is, by sacrificing a caster level, not a spellcasting level but a mere caster level (I'm talking about SC casting here) by taking Warblade, one can initiate both Inspire Courage, Dragonfire Inspiration, and two very relevant spells in one round. You don't even have to drop your lute to cast the spells either, with the Somatic Weapon feat, your riffs are somatic components enough. That's a potential +12/+12 (hit/damage), 12d6 sonic damage, plus vulnerability to sonic damage if not immune, in one round. This gives you more time to make use of that delicious Sublime Chord casting........or more buffs if the first round wasn't enough for you.
#114

crimsondeath

Dec 10, 2007 5:56:10
I'm not talking about casting a spell while maintaining a bardic music effect, I am talking about casting a spell while I initiate a bardic music effect. To initiate Inspire Courage takes a standard action, usually, as does the concentration required to maintain the ability.

You don't have to spend actions to "concentrate" on Inspire Courage. You simply continue singing as long as you wish to continue singing. (Although the DM may ask you to make Constitution checks after an hour or so...)
#115

quickenedwish

Dec 10, 2007 14:12:53
You don't have to spend actions to "concentrate" on Inspire Courage. You simply continue singing as long as you wish to continue singing. (Although the DM may ask you to make Constitution checks after an hour or so...)

Yet the text states that "Bardic Music abilities that require concentration still take a standard action to preform."

Even though starting and maintaining bardic music still requires standard actions, you can cast spells or activate spell trigger items as part of that action. Is that a correct reading? I must admit, up until recently I sort of ignored this feat; after all, why take a feat when you can use equipment? But when I really read the text, which states that, in effect, you can cast spells and play music using the same action, it's usefulness became apparent. Could someone read the feat thoroughly and get back to me?
#116

crimsondeath

Dec 10, 2007 14:44:38
Yet the text states that "Bardic Music abilities that require concentration still take a standard action to preform."

But Inspire Courage is not such a Bardic Music ability.

Fascinate, Inspire Competence, and Song of Freedom require concentration. Countersong, Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics do not. Suggestion and Mass Suggestion are part of the action required to maintain Fascinate.
#117

quickenedwish

Dec 10, 2007 15:14:21
You say that Inspire Courage does not take a standard action of concentration to continue its effects. I'll give you that one; the bard only needs to continue performing for the effects to continue (which is a non-action?). Even though it is a non-action(?), however, you are prohibited from casting spells. Melodic Casting takes care of this.

However, starting up a bardic music ability is a standard action. Can one cast a standard action spell, using Melodic Casting, while starting Inspire Courage? Is my buff routine, posted above, valid?
#118

crimsondeath

Dec 10, 2007 17:01:01
However, starting up a bardic music ability is a standard action. Can one cast a standard action spell, using Melodic Casting, while starting Inspire Courage? Is my buff routine, posted above, valid?

I don't think so. Otherwise, they wouldn't need to specify that concentrating on Bardic Music requires a standard action; they'd actually need to specify that you can initiate or concentrate on a Bardic performance using the same standard action as casting the spell. You could cast Quickened/Swift spells during such a performance, though.
#119

quickenedwish

Dec 10, 2007 17:39:08
I don't think so. Otherwise, they wouldn't need to specify that concentrating on Bardic Music requires a standard action; they'd actually need to specify that you can initiate or concentrate on a Bardic performance using the same standard action as casting the spell. You could cast Quickened/Swift spells during such a performance, though.

Unless I used that swift action to initiate another bardic music effect. =(

So, Melodic casting does not grant you the ability to cast spells while initiated bardic music, only when you otherwise would not be able to, for example, when you continue to sing to maintain Inspire Courage, which does not require an action to maintain, but does normally inhibit spellcasting.

A dissapointing revelation to be sure, but thanks. I will have to find another way it seems.
#120

chakrava

Dec 13, 2007 19:55:05
No one's talked about this for awhile, but I just finished reading over all the posts and couldn't see anyone else make this point.

Dragonfire Insp. mentions that if the source of your dragon-ness (feat or parentage) isn't associated with an energy type than you get no benefit from the feat. Does this mean that Spellscale wouldn't be able to use it? It would basically require Half-Dragon or Draconic Heritage (which in turn reqs Sorcerer).

Dragonfire Inspiration is fire damage by default.

The Special block of the feat goes on to say that if you have Draconic Heritage or are a half-dragon the damage dealt becomes the appropriate energy type. If you don't have the heritage feat and are not a half-dragon you deal fire damage by default, it's characters that are half-dragon: Deep dragon, or Draconic Heritage: Deep Dragon, or some other dragon that has no energy-type affinity, that gain no benefit from inspiration.

Characters who have the dragonblood subtype through other means (Silverbrow Human, etc.) deal the default fire damage.
#121

fortain

Jan 27, 2008 21:58:54
I've compiled everything I could find about boosting Inspire Courage into one easy-to-read sheet - please let me know if I've missed anything. Since the OP wanted to purely boost I.C., I've left out all multi-classing which doesn't directly add to I.C.

---Full WotC-Tweaked Bard---
Class: Bard20
Race: Human (for extra feat)
Casting Stat: 18(base) + 5(levels) + 5(inherent) + ...(no more required)
Perform (X) Skill: 23 + ...(no more required)
Bardic Music Uses Per Day: 20(levels) + ...(no more required)
--Feats--
Somatic Weaponry (3.5E WotC CM): can cast a spell w/somatic component with a weapon
(should combine w/Lute to allow you to cast any spell that has a somatic and/or verbal component ONLY)
Song of the Heart (3.5E WotC ECS): +1 to I.C. attack, weapon damage, charm save, & fear save bonus
Words of Creation (3E WotC BoED): doubles either base I.C. bonuses or base+additions, depending on reading
--Equipment--
Badge of Valor (3.5E WotC MIC): +1 to I.C. attack, weapon damage, charm save, & fear save bonus
Lute - instrument (3.5E WotC ComAdv.): +1 to bard level for I.C. bonus; can cast verbal-only spells while using I.C.
Vest of Legends (3.5E WotC DMGII): +5 to bard level for I.C. bonus
--Spells--
Level 1: Inspirational Boost (3.5E WotC SC): +1 to I.C. attack, weapon damage, charm save, & fear save bonus
====
Inspire Courage Bonus: +13 OR* +16 morale bonus to charm & fear saves, +13 OR* +16 morale bonus to attack & weapon damage to all allies
--Side-Tweak--
- with Focused Performance - Individual Performance (3.5E WotC Dr#338): +21 OR* +24 bonus (as above) to ONE ally
- with Dread Pirate PrC (WotC 3.5 ComAdv.) [as Bard 13/DP7], Chaos Music feat (3.5E WotC Dr#326) [+4 to bard level for I.C. bonus {multi-class ONLY}], & *: +18 bonus (as above)
-- +27 bonus (as above) w/Focused Performance - Individual Performance as well to ONE ally
- with Dragonfire Inspiration (3.5E WotC Dr.Ma.): +13d6 OR* +16d6 X element damage to all allies' attacks
-- +18d6 X element damage to all allies' attacks w/Dread Pirate add-on
-- +21d6 OR* +24d6 X element damage to ONE allies' attacks w/Focused Performance - Individual Performance add-on
-- +27d6 X element damage to ONE allies' attacks w/Dread Pirate & Focused Performance - Individual Performance add-ons
- with Focused Performance - Accompaniment (3.5E WotC Dr#338): have two of the above effects going at once


*ONLY if you allow Words of Creation to double all bonuses, not just level-dependent ones.
#122

bosheck

Mar 03, 2008 14:11:42
Chaos Music + Inspire Greatness should allow you to increase your hit dice cap further, even as a straight bard. Combined with Words of Creation and Song of the Heart (which you'd have both anyway), You should be able to reach +5-6 HD, granting you another possible +1 base (+2 with Words of Creation) To your Inspire Courage. Of course Chaos Music is capped at +4. But still, good way to get higher at lower levels.
#123

fortain

Mar 15, 2008 21:51:59
Chaos Music only works w/multiclass Bards, which is why I only included it in the Dread Pirate build. Even with I.G., you only get 2 extra HD, which is not enough to give you another +1. I'll have to see if there's a way to get more out of I.G. & the extra HD.
#124

quickenedwish

Mar 16, 2008 0:35:51
Edit: Nevermind
#125

fortain

Mar 16, 2008 9:42:48
Yes, WoC will double the bonus from IG to 4 HD, but the Vest & Lute are already taken into account in the non-DP build, as she's already singing as a 26th level Bard at that point. With IG & Chaos Music, it would bump her up to a 30th level, 2 levels shy of the next IC increase (32nd level, per the WotC 3.5E DMG, p.208)
#126

quickenedwish

Mar 16, 2008 23:36:47
Yes, WoC will double the bonus from IG to 4 HD, but the Vest & Lute are already taken into account in the non-DP build, as she's already singing as a 26th level Bard at that point. With IG & Chaos Music, it would bump her up to a 30th level, 2 levels shy of the next IC increase (32nd level, per the WotC 3.5E DMG, p.208)

Yeah, for some reason I thought it was every four levels at epic. Will edit previous post.
#127

quickenedwish

Mar 17, 2008 1:00:37
Fortain was nice enough to post a compilation of the work done in this thread. He mentions in a few lines the use of Dread Pirate, which I think is a road worth exploring, but I have a few questions regarding it's bonus, Rally the Crew.

Though it may be a morale bonus much the same way Inspire Courage is a morale bonus, and even stacks with Inspire Courage, the wording of Inspire Courage is very specific in what it doubles, and Rally the Crew is not included.

The question is, though Rally the Crew may stack with Inspire Courage, is the bonus it confers valid for doubling through Words of Creation?
#128

Iry

Mar 17, 2008 14:30:02
Is there any way to Optimize Smite to Song from Champions of Valor?
#129

fortain

Mar 18, 2008 1:27:58
@QuickenedWish

That's why I added the caveat of if you let WoC double all bonuses, does the DP add anything to the build. If not, then DP adds nothing and should not be taken.

@Iry

I'll take a look into it.
-EDIT-
It may be possible to work the WoC, Bard level-boosters, & IC-boosters (not SotH) into a Paladin build, but it'd be a lot of extra stuff on top of being a Pally. DP would not work, unless you're using an alternate (non-lawful) Paladin. In any case, there'd be no extra boost to IC from the build.
#130

gwythur

Mar 22, 2008 0:55:11
I'm currently playing an inspire courage optimized bard, and I'd like to thank the folks who have contributed to this thread for the ideas and inspiration. The character is a lot of fun, and my party actually loves it when I sing. This may be the first time I've ever seen a bard in play without hearing the word "spoony".

The build stub I'm running is CG draconic human (LA bought off)

(1) Bard 1 - TWF, Melodic casting (human), Draconic heritage (Battle dragon) (flaw), Dragonfire inspiration (flaw)
(2) Bard 2
(3) Barbarian 1 (Lion totem variant) - Snowflake wardance
(4) Bard 3
(5) Bard 4
(6) Paladin of Freedom 1 - Words of creation
(7) Paladin of Freedom 2
(8) Bard 5
(9) Bard 6 - Chaos music, Song of the heart (substitute for suggestion class feature)

I'm not sure how much further the campaign will run from there, but I'm probably looking at finishing out with bard. I don't own ToB, and with 4e on the horizon, it doesn't seem like a worthy investment at this point.

I'm at the point where I'm about to take my first paladin level, and was looking at possible substitutions that might synergize well with the build. In the paladin's handbook, I came across the Harmonius Knight substution from the Champions of Valor web enhancement. To summarize, the Harmonius Knight must worship Milil, and has substitution levels at paladin 1, 6, and 9 where s/he gives up detect evil and remove disease for inspire courage, inspire competence, and inspire greatness respectively. For our purposes, only the foremost seems to be of import.

I suggest reading the wording in the web enhancement, since it seems to be a little wonky. There appears to be no mechanism for increasing the inspire courage beyond +1, but it has uses per day equal to paladin levels. No mention of bards or bardic music is made, and no mechanism for stacking is given. However, the ability is Inspire Courage (Su), and aside from the lack of bonus to saves vs charm and fear, is written exactly as the bardic music ability from the PHB.

Since many of the builds here incorporate paladin, either for the charisma to saves, as I have, or for turning to fuel Divine might, I thought this might be interesting to mention. RAW, it appears to be completely separate from bardic music, but since it is essentially the same thing, you may be able to convice your DM to allow them to stack, opening up a feat slot otherwise used on Devoted performer.


I also wanted to clear up a couple misconceptions that seem to have popped up along the way in this thread. Snowflake wardance, while a phenomenal feat for bards, does have its limits. On page 2 of this thread, we see
Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn): Expend Bardic music to get Charisma to damage.

Snowflake wardance actually provides charisma to attack rolls, not damage. It is also restricted to slashing weapons, which makes it rather less powerful for a TWF bard, unless taking oversized TWF. There is only one simple light slashing weapon in the PHB, so a wardancing base bard will probably be off-handing a dagger. Multiclassing opens up the martial weapons hand axe and the kukri.


The ability to swap forms of bardic music for musical feats is listed in the ECS sourcebook, p.34 under the bard class in the subsection Music of Creation. Song of the Heart and Music of Growth are both specifically mentioned as feats that can be swapped for the bardic music forms gained at 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, or 18th level. No mention is made of being able to take said bonus feat without qualifying for it. The ability to make this swap may be exclusive to the Eberron campaign setting. If this was later reprinted elsewhere, please let me know.
#131

shadowed_intent

Mar 23, 2008 19:40:01
There is only one simple light slashing weapon in the PHB, so a wardancing base bard will probably be off-handing a dagger.

The poor sickle, so often overlooked.
#132

operation_shoestring

Mar 23, 2008 20:31:38
Why are people using bard 20?

Unless you plan to go for epic, bard6/vistuoso9 +vest of legends is all you need for fully decked inspire courage.

Illuminian Bard6/Paladin of freedom2/Virtuoso2/sublime chord2/Virtuoso+7/Sacred Excorcist1

With a vest of legends, your effective bard level for Inspire courage is 20.

Now switch out Suggestion for Song of the heart, take words of creation, cast inspirational boost, and wear a Hero's badge.

Inspire courage +11/14. and you get 9th level spellcasting.

with Narhoon-sigil and a reliquary holy symbol, you can spend your turn attempts to persist Greater Harmonize and Sirene's Grace.

Result? In addition to awesome bardic music that you start and maintain as a move action, you get CHA to saves and AC and have 9th level CHA-based casting.

HAIL TO THE KING, BABY.
#133

Mistwell

Mar 30, 2008 14:33:28
These new things are all mentioned by others elsewhere in the thread, but I thought it would be helpful to bring them together, and give some more full text quotes:

Slippers of Battledancing (DMG2. pg. 272): These slippers imbue the wearer with a shocking grace and a deadly fluidity in battle.
Description: These soft, open-toed slippers are made of supple leather and look very comfortable.
Activation: This item is continuously active while worn, provided that the wearer’s armor is no heavier than light. No action on the wearer’s part is required to gain the effect.
Effect: While these slippers are on the wearer’s feet, he moves with unnatural grace and alacrity, gaining an enhancement bonus of +10 feet to his land speed. The slippers also grant him a +5 competence bonus on Tumble checks. A wearer who has at least 5 ranks in Perform (dance) accesses the true benefit of the slippers of battledancing. As long as he uses his base land speed to move (a fly, swim, burrowing, or climb speed), he gains a +2 insight bonus on initiative checks. If he moves at least 10 feet as part of a move action, he can use his Charisma modifier instead of his Strength or Dexterity modifier for attack rolls and damage rolls with one-handed or light weapons (both melee and ranged).
Aura/Caster Level: Moderate transmutation; CL 7th
Contruction: Craft Wondrous Item, 5 ranks in Perform (dance), longstrider, cat's grace, easgle's splendor, 16,875 gp, 1,350 XP, 33 days.
Weight: 1 lb.
Price: 33,750

Battle Rattle (Bardic Music Instrument) (Dragon Magazine #331, pg. 88).
Description: Wooden instrument that is spun when played.
When played in combat, all allies within 30’ gain a +1 Morale bonus on a skill check or attack roll made within one round. Usable once per combat. If someone with Bardic Music uses the Battle Rattle as part of his/her Inspire Courage ability, the bonus to Inspire Courage is +1.
Cost to Create:Craft Wondrous Item, Heroism, 1,500 gp, 120 xp
Cost: 3000 gp

Focused Performer Feat (Dragon #338, pg. 89)(This is a prerequisite for the next feat): Pre-req: Concentration 1, Perform 4, Bardic Music. When required to make a Concentration check to maintain an arcane spell with a verbal component you may use your Perform skill instead. You cannot use this ability on a silent spell.

Focused Performance feat (Dragon #338, pg. 89). Pre-Req: Concentration 1, Perform 6, Focused Performer, Bardic Music. You can expend daily uses of your bardic music ability to modify your performance. You must succeed at a Perform check (DC below) to successfully modify your bardic music ability. You may only apply one modification to a use of bardic music. The most popular bardic music modifications follow:
1) Accompaniment – Spend 3 uses to perform two Bardic Music abilities simultaneously. Each round you must make a Perform check vs. DC (20 + highest Perform ranks required) or both abilities end immediately. You may end one of the Bardic Music abilities at any time and continue the other without requiring any more Perform checks. Usable with all Bardic Music.
2)Dramatic Pause – Spend 2 uses to stop an ongoing Bardic Music ability for 1 round (in order to cast a spell, attack, etc.) and then resume it as if you had not stopped. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (20 + Perform ranks required). Usable with Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics.
3) Harmony – Spend 1 uses to make a Bardic Music that normally affects one target instead affect two. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (20 + Perform ranks required). Usable with Inspire Competence, Suggestion, and Song of Freedom.
4) Individual Performance – Spend 1 use to make a Bardic Music that normally affects multiple targets instead only affect one (cannot be you). This target receives 2x the normal bonuses / penalties. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (15 + Perform ranks required). Usable with Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics.
5) Projection – Spend 2 uses to make a Bardic Music have 2x the normal area of effect. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (10 + Perform ranks required). Usable with Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics, and Song of Freedom.
6) Rhythm – Spend 1 use to make a Bardic Music that you have been performing for at least 3 round last two extra rounds after you stop performing. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (10 + Perform ranks required). Usable with Fascinate, Inspire Competence, Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics.
7) Riveting Performance – spend 1 use to make a Bardic Music affect all target in range that can hear you, even if they cannot see you. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (15 + Perform ranks required). Usable with Fascinate and Inspire Competence.
#134

carnivore

Sep 12, 2008 14:55:36


:D
#135

Endarire

Jun 04, 2009 15:34:28
Saved for another generation!
#136

bearisbrown

Apr 04, 2010 17:23:20
Saved for the next. Laughing

Also,
Bard 1/Druid 5/Green Whisperer 3/ Sublime Chord 1/ Foulchan Lyricist 9/ Arcane Heirophant 1 
/w Chaos Music, Vest of Legends , Battle Rattle, Song of the Heart, Insipration Boost, Words of Creation = +14 IC and Double 9s. And 6th level Wildshape and  6th level Companion Familiar.
#137

bill_bisco_average_adventurer

Sep 12, 2011 0:21:48
Preserve the Knowledge of the Past for Great Justice!!!!!