Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 destined_infamy Mar 08, 2009 1:54:19	Grr, I'm AFB right now, and even so, don't have all the books I need to do what I'm trying to do. There's a bardic handbook out there, and some threads for it (scanned the "handy CO links" sticky), but yet it seems they are incomplete or too vague to be of real use in my situation. I'm trying to build a TWFing bard, duel weilding harmonizing echoblades, and optimizing inspire courage to deal some nice sonic (or whatevers greatest) damage. The plan was to go straight 20 bard, because its for a flavour campaign (bard hunting down epic stories with his companions/bodyguards, twists keep winding up with them in the middle of the action, or thats what its sounding like). Got a rogue and a druid on my side, probably gonna see a monk join up. What I need to know is, how can I do what I'm planning on doing? Chrystal Echoblade Show Crystal Echoblade Price (Item Level)" 4,310 gp (9th) Body Slot: - (held) Caster Level: 10th Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) evocation Activation: - Weight: 4 lb. A crystal echoblade normally functions as a +1 longsword, but is enhanced by your musical ability. If you use your bardic music ability while wielding the weapon, the blade resonates in harmony, dealing additional sonic damage on each attack equal to half your bard level. Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Bardic Music Cost to Create: 2,000 go (plus 310 gp for masterwork longsword), 160 XP, 4 days.
#2 playswithfire Mar 08, 2009 10:21:03	Snowflake wardance is from Frostburn and requires bardic music and 6 ranks in perform, so you can take it as a level 3 bard no problem. Two harmonizing weapons would not carry two different effects, as I read it, since it says that it lasts until you start another bardic music effect. I missed the part about avoiding ToB, so my thoughts involved a bard 16/unarmed swordsage 2/crusader 2 with the ToB levels places to get better maneuvers and the second crusader level at 16 to pick up Press the Advantage so you can use the Slippers of Battledancing to use CHA for to-hit and damage, and suggest that you use Discipline Focus weapons crystal echoblades and always stay in a stance from that discipline. Unarmed Swordsage and at least 4 levels of bard also gets you Ascetic Mage for CHA to AC in light armor. For a more spellcasting focus, there's Bard 8/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Crusader 2/Sublime Chord 8 Only has 12 uses of bardic music a day as opposed to 16 in my first build and 20 in yours, BAB 13 and only inspires courage +4 with words of creation (Before gear and other boosters), but gets 8th level spells.
#3 farodin Mar 08, 2009 10:28:24	Try Bard 16/Paladin 4 with the Devoted Performer feat. (This is something I made some months ago after seeing this thread.) If you don't want to be lawful, just use Paladin of Freedom. Feats: Two Weapon fighting Improved Two Weapon fighting Greater Two Weapon fighting Words of Creation (BOED) Devoted Performer (CAdv) Melodic Casting (CM) Snowflake Wardance (FB) Power Attack (prereq) Divine Might (CW) You would need 1 flaw if you'd choose human Items: You will want two Harmonizing Chrystal Echoblades. As you already quoted, the "Crystal" property itself costs 2000 gp, so you can also get it in shortsword form. (You can get a slashing shortsword, see the Wakizashi in the DMG.) "Harmonizing" is also in the MIC and continues your song for you. It only works untill you start a new song, so 2 songs at the same time won't work. Badge of Valor (MIC), gives +1 to Inspire Courage Vest of Legends (DMG2), adds 5 to effective bard levels for the effects of your music Spells: Inspiratioinal Boost (SPC), another +1 to Inspire Courage This gives you: +10 Inspire Courage (assuming Words of Creation does not double extra bonuses) BAB 16, 8 Attacks with Haste (Boots of Speed?) Cha to saves Cha to attacks per Snowflake Wardance Cha to damage by Divine Might 1/2 Bard level to damage Use Perform instead of Concentration
#4 ninjarabbit Mar 08, 2009 11:13:07	How about this one: human bard1/paladin17/monk2 (overwheling assault monk variant from UA/SRD) Feats: able learner, dreadful wrath or improved initative, power attack via monk, improved bull rush via monk devoted performer, initate of milil (Champions of Valor), ascetic knight, divine might, battle blessing, shock trooper Bardic music ability as a 18th level bard via devoted performer and initate of milil Unarmed strike as a 19th level monk via asceitc knight All paladin spells as swift spells via battle blessing
#5 destined_infamy Mar 08, 2009 11:26:59	@ playswithfire -a small dip into ToB could be used, but it is a mostly flavour campaign, I just wanted to throw in a bit of two weapon fighting goodness @playswithfire and ninjarabbit -its most likely sticking to a low-magic campaign, meaning people like spellcasters and magic weapons/items will be very rare and far between, but supposed to strike awe into the people that meet them. I guess you could relate it to Star Wars, saying only a few random people get to use the force out of billions? @ Farrodin these look nice, quite what I was looking at going for. I can understand a palidan dip because I think we're going for a neutral good - lawful good party as a change. Would dropping power attack be good for grabbing Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, or is that the prereq for divine might? Or would that give him MAD? Already requiring a pretty high dex 'and' cha for his abilities and feats. I just can't remember if OTWF was a str or dex req. You seem to have selected 9 feat out of a possible 8 by my count (1, human 1, 3,6,9,12,15,18) unless palidan's get bonus feats.....Its been years since I've even looked at their progression table. I'm just hoping to have a bard of all things duel weilding longswords, maybe even grabbing monkey grip to make the on hand a large chrystal echoblade Also, none of these builds really utilized the inspire courage + draconic inspiration (I think its called that) to give bonusses to damage in 1d6s instead of each +1. I thought that with duel weilding would be pretty decent, hence my initial enthusiasm :P Nice input to all though, and thanks
#6 manawar Mar 08, 2009 11:58:42	"Harmonizing" is also in the MIC and continues your song for you. It only works untill you start a new song, so 2 songs at the same time won't work. If he were to take Seeker of the Song PRC, which allowed him to play two songs simultaneously, he could (RAW) begin two songs and allow both of his Echoblades to pick up a song using Combined Music. He could also use this to store his Inspire Courage in one Echoblade while continuing to sing Hymn of Spelldeath. He would still receive Inspire Courage for 10 rounds while effectively rendering all casters around him useless. If you could convince your DM to allow the Echoblades to store Seeker Music, more power to you.
#7 grifter730_dup Mar 08, 2009 12:05:02	Human Bard Feats: 1 Dragontouched, Draconic Heritage (Battle Dragon) 3 Dragonfire Inspiration 6 Snowflake Wardance 9 Words of Creation You'll need to tweak it around to also fit in Weapon Finesse, and whatever other feats you want. It kinda depends on what level you'll be starting the game at.
#8 destined_infamy Mar 08, 2009 12:30:54	oh, I'm starting this baby at first, its a full on slow build to 20, and if we enjoy playing the party, we go epic, if not, we usually kill it off in the 13-20 region. This one seems like it will be entertaining though, the character flavour will add to the enjoyment of playing. Bards always die like nothing else in our parties. Rushed by constructs who aren't even affected by things like fascinate, Thuun Hulks sucking out their brains, minotaurs charging them instead of the people standing in front.....they don't last too long, even with intelligent playing. I'm utilizing this to have a bard as the leader, the main character of the party. Hopefully everyone else will be devoted enough to take the hits for me, but I still want to be able to drop a pretty penny of damage when required. Basically, this needs to be playable at all levels, however I don't need TWF very fast. Low magic means low echoblades, meaning I'll have more then enough time to accumulate feats before worrying about getting good items. What Grifter suggested seems optimal, though I'd rather get words of creation ASAP. I'll probably grab them at level 6 (I think thats possible). So it wouldn't be TWF until 12, OTWF at 15, and ITWF at 18? meaning only 6 hits with haste, and no paladin levels for divine wrath. Unless I took fighter levels too, or varient rogue, which probably wouldn't be optimal. What level dip should I leave for Seeker of the Song? or should I leave one at all? It does seem to fit the character, always searching for more songs, more tales to write about, then deciding to search for the song of life (I believe thats what those guys are technically doing)
#9 farodin Mar 08, 2009 12:39:07	Power Attack is a prerequisite for Divine Might Flaws can be used to gain extra feats. I assumed you could make a shortsword Crystal Echoblade to not need Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. You definitely don't want Monkey Grip. The on average +2.5 damage are not worth the -2 penalty to attacks. If you use Dragonfire Inspiration, it's probably better to drop Power Attack and Divine Might, and rely on dex only (Weapon Finesse), to reduce MAD a bit. Either take just 2 Paladin levels then, or none at all.
#10 grifter730_dup Mar 08, 2009 14:32:10	Don't forget that until you qualify for TWF, you can rely on Gloves of the Balanced Hands (MoF) to give you TWF. Greater TWF is overrated imo.
#11 gorfnad_the_shiznit Mar 08, 2009 16:07:41	My posting from http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=887398&page=7 Bard base with 9th level spells, decent amount of ToB maneuvers, all the JPM abilities, and if my math is still right +18d6 sonic damage to all attacks (both you and allies) at level 20. Show While thinking on my previous post and with a little inspiration from the Song of Death: Bardic Badass thread, I have revised my previous build. "Disco Inferno" Human CG - Take 2 1. Bard - Dragon Touched, Dragonfire Inspiration, Dragon Heritage (Battle Dragon), Able Learner, 2x Flaws 2. Bard 3. Bard - Song of the Heart 4. Bard 5. Bard 6. Bard - Words of Creation 7. Crusader 8. Crusader 9. Jade Phoenix Mage - Song of the White Raven 10. Jade Phoenix Mage 11. Sublime Chord 12. Sublime Chord - Snowflake Wardance 13. Jade Phoenix Mage 14. Jade Phoenix Mage 15. Jade Phoenix Mage - Melodic Spellcasting 16. Jade Phoenix Mage 17. Jade Phoenix Mage 18. Jade Phoenix Mage - Versatile Spellcaster or Lingering Song 19. Jade Phoenix Mage 20. Jade Phoenix Mage BAB 17, Saves 12/8/11, 9th level Arcane Spells CL 16, Initiator Level 16 Items of Note: Harmonizing Echo Blade (MIC), Vest of Legends (DMGII), Badge of Valor (MIC), and a Masterwork Mandolin. Spells of Note: Inspirational Boost and Creaking Cacophony (both SC). Unless my math is off (which it may be) at level 20 your party is dealing an additional 18d6 sonic damage on each attack from Dragonfire Inspiration + feats + items + spells. Then of course you add in all of the JPM goodies...
#12 destined_infamy Mar 08, 2009 17:10:20	@grifter, an extra attack with up to 18d6 bonus damage isn't something to shake your finger at @gorfnad (or DanFrog, backwards :s) not bad at all, but I'm looking to make it nicely playable, this has xp penalties from level 14-20 Also I don't feel bad dropping the JPM levels for something a little more....bardic? I really do enjoy its level 10 ability, and I've always wanted to get a character with it, but as of right now...bard Mc.bardy bard bard. Maybe I'll try swinging something like this, but this character is flavour based, and needs to be optimized according to that. Sonic damage or force (which I heard was possible) damage from inspire courage is the biggest thing I'm trying to focus on. You said +18 in this build, a breakdown would be awesome, and any ideas on how to improve it more. Anybody know the present Inspire Courage record holder?
#13 gorfnad_the_shiznit Mar 08, 2009 19:32:18	@gorfnad (or DanFrog, backwards :s) not bad at all, but I'm looking to make it nicely playable, this has xp penalties from level 14-20 Also I don't feel bad dropping the JPM levels for something a little more....bardic? I really do enjoy its level 10 ability, and I've always wanted to get a character with it, but as of right now...bard Mc.bardy bard bard. Maybe I'll try swinging something like this, but this character is flavour based, and needs to be optimized according to that. Sonic damage or force (which I heard was possible) damage from inspire courage is the biggest thing I'm trying to focus on. You said +18 in this build, a breakdown would be awesome, and any ideas on how to improve it more. Anybody know the present Inspire Courage record holder? I'm not sure where you're getting the XP penalties from since prestige classes don't incur them and if you start with human like my build shows you will not have XP penalties since you only have two base classes. I'll have to look through my notes to give you a breakdown on the inspire courage, although here http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095 has a breakdown of some of the items/feats for inspire courage.
#14 destined_infamy Mar 08, 2009 20:18:32	no XP penalties for prestiege classes? Really? I definitely didn't know that! :P I was pretty sure that all classes counted towards it. Where does it say that? Like, what book? PHB errata or something? On the other note, yeah, I've checked that link before, I was just wondering if you used anything additionally. I guess I'll give it another look over, thanks
#15 Endarire Mar 09, 2009 0:15:45	DMG errata states PrCs don't count toward XP penalties.
#16 destined_infamy Mar 09, 2009 2:01:13	Thank you sir, may I have another. I'm gonna go reread all of those erratas. All of the sudden, I feel like I want to take a lot more dips Also, can I get sources when people post feats? I looked at Draconic heritage (online source), says sorcerer lvl 1 requrement, also didn't list "battle dragon"s. Can't find Dragon Touched anywhere, etc. I've seen them used before (except dragon touched), but can't remember where or if they were cited there either
#17 gorfnad_the_shiznit Mar 09, 2009 16:49:26	From my build Dragon Touched, Dragonfire Inspiration, Draconic Heritage - Dragon Magic Song of Heart - Eberron Campaign Setting Words of Creation - Book of Exalted Deeds Snowflake Wardance - Frostburn Song of the White Raven - Tome of Battle Melodic Casting - Complete Mage Versatile Spellcaster - Races of the Dragon Lingering Song - Complete Adventurer Battle Dragon - Races of the Dragon (page 103, see also Dragon Magic for reference under Draconic Heritage feat)